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Jan/31/22 9:53:11 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank the hon. member for his excellent comment and question. I do believe that we recognize the importance of energy. If the member is suggesting that we should be looking at energy as one of the ways that we might actually want to support Ukraine in the future, I think the Prime Minister, all of the ministers who have spoken today and many of my colleagues who have spoken today have indicated that every option is on the table. Anything that we can do to continue to support Ukraine, to continue to de-escalate, will be on the table and will be part of the discussions moving forward.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Jan/31/22 9:53:54 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I would like to thank my colleague for her intervention this evening. In the previous intervention, there was some discussion about Canada and its efforts with regard to diplomacy and our diplomatic corps. I am not referring to ministers going for visits to Ukraine. I am referring to our diminished diplomatic corps. Under the Conservatives, we had massive cuts to our diplomatic corps, especially when Global Affairs became something where they took away trade and development and put it all into one place. We lost a lot of our diplomacy, our ability to do diplomacy and our ability to have that role in the world, and we do not see that being built back up. We have not seen our international development and our ODA being built up. We also have not seen our peacekeeping efforts being built up. What I want to know from the the government is this: Will it commit to doing these things, building back our peacekeeping, building back our diplomatic corps and building back our international development, so that Canada can be back and we can be better suited for future conflicts like the one we are seeing right now in Ukraine?

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Ms. Julie Dzerowicz

Jan/31/22 9:55:15 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, since we were first elected in late 2015, our government has very much put an emphasis on diplomacy and on strengthening diplomacy. Throughout this whole situation with the buildup of Russian aggression at the Ukrainian borders, we have had excellent diplomatic efforts from our Prime Minister, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of National Defence and from a number of my colleagues. That is an area that we will continue to strengthen. One of the other things we announced is that Canada is creating a team out of Global Affairs Canada to support the further coordination of federal efforts in support of peace and security in Ukraine. We are trying to do everything we can to continue to expand our diplomatic efforts and to continue to open the lines of communication with our allies, with NATO and with anyone who wants to help find a diplomatic and peaceful solution out of the current situation we find ourselves in right now.

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Mr. Terry Duguid (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, Lib.)

Jan/31/22 9:56:34 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the member for her very passionate and informed speech. The Minister of Tourism referred earlier to a town hall of 500 Ukrainian Canadians hosted by the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs. We heard many of things that we are hearing tonight, of course. We heard from the ministers a theme very similar to the member's tonight, which is of Canada being flexible and resilient in its response and open to new options as the situation evolves. I think we have heard that message from our Minister of National Defence today. Is that something that the member shares, that we should be open to new options?

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Ms. Julie Dzerowicz

Jan/31/22 9:57:23 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I absolutely agree with the hon. member. I believe we are absolutely open to all questions we are looking for. As I said, I am an eternal optimist. I absolutely believe there is still a way for us to find a peaceful and diplomatic solution, and I think we have had the right approach here in Canada. I am proud of our leadership, and I am hopeful that we will find a solution moving forward.

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Hon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (South Surrey—White Rock, CPC)

Jan/31/22 9:58:01 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with the member for Thornhill. The Russians are ready for war with Ukraine and have the elements of 10 combined arms and tank armies surrounding Ukraine's borders. The Russians say they are normal troop deployments and that they are not looking to invade Ukraine. They said the same things in 2014 before they seized Crimea and the Donbass. With Georgia in 2008, Russia said its military buildup was a war game, and they took the northern part of the country by storm. This time we know differently about Russian President Vladimir Putin's claims. Typically, only three Russian armies are stationed opposite Ukraine, and now we are seeing units from six other combined arms armies and the main strike force of the western military district, the 1st Guards Tank Army, move within miles of the Russian-Ukrainian border. More Russian troops have been sent to Belarus along with fighter aircraft to both deter NATO and to threaten a northern invasion march on Kyiv. Belarus's army is on a heightened state of alert and ready to join Russia in battle. Russian forces in Transnistria have also been built up. Between five and six large Russian amphibious ships are on the way to the Black Sea with naval infantry. Smaller amphibious craft are coming by road. Russian pipeline troops have been deployed forward to establish fuel hubs for their armoured forces. The Russian navy is engaged in war games in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans and the North, Baltic and Black seas. Russia's strategic rocket forces are in war games, on a heightened state of alert and dispersed, and blood has been sent to Russian field hospitals, the last thing that happens before they become battle-ready. Blood is such a precious commodity that we use coloured water in exercises. My husband and children are part Ukrainian. My heart is with that vulnerable democracy and its people. My heart is with the men, women and families of Canadian Armed Forces members who may be put in harm's way. The U.S., U.K. and other NATO states are ready to deploy forces to deter the Russian and Belarusian aggressors. What about Canada? In 2019 the Prime Minister announced in London Canada's contribution to NATO's high readiness force. Canada's total commitment to the NATO readiness initiative includes 12 CF-18 fighter jets, an expeditionary air task force, a maritime patrol aircraft, three frigates, a submarine, a mechanized infantry battalion, a mobile hospital and a platoon for chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear defence. Right now in the face of unprecedented Russian aggression against Ukraine and hybrid warfare directed at Poland and the Baltic states through its proxy Belarus, we have a 550-person force in Estonia helping to train and protect that vulnerable NATO state. We have 200 trainers in Ukraine with a couple hundred more maybe on their way, and a small special forces detachment, and the minister just announced that they are moving out of harm's way west of the Dnieper River. We have one warship, HMCS Montréal, in transit to the Black Sea, and one being made ready in Halifax. The government has watched the Russian military build up in real terms since Zapad 2021 in September. We have had months to put together a robust list of both non-lethal and lethal aid to support Ukraine. It may not be a NATO member state, but it is surely a NATO ally. At this stage we should be supplying lethal defensive aid to help this fledgling democracy stand up to the bully of central and eastern Europe in Vladimir Putin. As well, the cyberdefensive capabilities in our Communications Security Establishment should be leveraged to help Ukraine. As well, Canadian signals intelligence could be invaluable to monitoring Russian interactions. The satellite intelligence from RADARSAT would be most helpful in tracking troop movements. The Canadian Armed Forces can provide training in a much wider range of lethal combat skills than they are doing now, and Canada should start as quickly as Ukraine can accommodate extra help. Even a maritime patrol aircraft to monitor Russian actions in the Black Sea and Baltic would be helpful at this point. If Canadians care at all about democracy, if we care about freedom and sovereignty, we must care about it everywhere.

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Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP)

Jan/31/22 10:03:16 p.m.
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Madam Chair, we have talked a lot in the House about the failure of the Liberal government to provide leadership especially for women, but for both men and women, in the armed forces, and the toll this has taken on retention and recruitment in the armed forces. We talked about the additional stress of expanding Operation Unifier, which I agree with entirely. Could the member maybe address the additional stresses this is going to put on the men and women in our armed forces?

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Hon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay

Jan/31/22 10:04:04 p.m.
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Madam Chair, this is a crucial issue within our Canadian Armed Forces right now. Madam Justice Arbour is tasked with looking at further recommendations, because the earlier recommendations were not all put in place. We are looking for further insights there. We need more personnel in the Canadian Armed Forces and retention and recruitment are huge issues, but we have serving men and women who are trained and we know that they can do even more to help train in Ukraine and in vulnerable democracies such as Ukraine. As I said, Ukraine may not be part of NATO, as least yet, but it is surely a NATO ally.

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Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.)

Jan/31/22 10:05:05 p.m.
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Madam Chair, one of the things the government has done over the past number of years is impose sanctions on a range of individuals and entities who have either violated human rights or contributed to violating Ukraine's sovereignty. We know that in Crimea, for example, there are tremendous human rights abuses against the Crimean Tatars by the now occupying Russian forces and administrations. There is a democracy that is being repressed, etc., so sanctions have been imposed for a number of reasons on Russian officials and entities. I am wondering what your thoughts are about the role of sanctions going forward and, if you believe sanctions are needed, are there particular groups of folks or types of folks that you believe should be sanctioned?

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The Deputy Chair

Jan/31/22 10:05:53 p.m.
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I would remind the hon. member that he is to address all questions and comments through the Chair. The hon. member for South Surrey—White Rock.

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Hon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay

Jan/31/22 10:06:01 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I believe sanctions do work and diplomacy usually works, but we are dealing with a very aggressive country that has decided that in its interests, whatever it deems them to be, Ukraine is part of them going forward. Diplomacy should always come first, and sanctions along with diplomacy absolutely are a deterrent, but offering Ukraine every support short of assistance, I suggest, is not good enough. We have to stand stronger with Ukraine and democracy.

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Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ)

Jan/31/22 10:06:48 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thank my colleague for her speech. I would like to expand on the question posed by my NDP colleague, who serves with us in committee. As we can see, cybersecurity is very important, especially with respect to enemies such as Russia. Does my colleague share my opinion that it is important to have better cybersecurity for ourselves and so that it can be better shared with our allies when the need arises?

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Hon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay

Jan/31/22 10:07:20 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I absolutely agree that it is essential. You may have noticed that the Russians shut down a lot of Ukraine's cyber abilities before stepping up even further with aggression. This is part of modern warfare: It is something that goes on all the time with aggressor states, and we need to do more to be alive to it, monitor it and prevent it.

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The Deputy Chair

Jan/31/22 10:07:53 p.m.
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I would remind the hon. member as well that when she is answering questions, she is to address them to the Chair and not directly to members. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Thornhill.

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Ms. Melissa Lantsman (Thornhill, CPC)

Jan/31/22 10:08:03 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I want to thank the hon. member for South Surrey—White Rock for her views on the debate. With that, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak to a matter that I know Canadians are watching. It is not only those who have Ukrainian roots, but all those who believe in moral clarity and a principled approach to our country's foreign policy and our place in the world, and Canadians like me who have pieced together a first-hand history from the family dinner table of stories from the past that make today's threats so clear and obvious. If there was ever an instance where Canada, where the Prime Minister and where the foreign affairs minister had the opportunity to do the right thing, it was last week. The government could have lent its support to Ukraine against Russian aggression by providing Ukraine with the lethal defensive weapons it needs, but Canada did not. The governments of the U.S., the U.K., Poland, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia and others have already provided that support. Some have leaned on our past refusal to arm Ukraine as an excuse not to do it today. However, the difference now is that almost nine years have passed since Putin's continued occupation began and his constant escalation of aggression. Of course, we have all of our NATO allies. We now know the situation has changed rapidly in the last week, so it becomes very difficult to understand why Canada has not joined our allies. In fact, the government has recognized this themselves by operational changes we heard about yesterday. It is important for the House to understand the history of our relationship and the history that many members of the House will remember first-hand, because it was not that long ago that Canada was unafraid of principles and was Ukraine's most vocal ally in the G7. Today that is a not-so-distant in memory, but it will be replaced in our history that we are an observer to an imminent threat that we know to be true. We have two clear options: We treat Ukraine as the allies that they are, as defenders of democracy and freedom who we would lend our full military support to on the path to European integration, or we excuse ourselves from the conversation to appease Putin's violence and walk away. I know the answer was once clear. Our past action on this issue unfortunately does not seem like the right indicator for our future action. In the past, Canada's actions included targeted sanctions against Kremlin supporters, political and economic support to Kyiv's government, the redeployment of military assets as part of NATO's reassurance package in eastern Europe and the contribution of observers to Ukraine's election. Today, they need more, and our action would have been clear. The steadfast support of our former prime minister was clear. He spoke directly and unambiguously about his views on Putin's occupation and the destabilizing force that Russia is in the world today. It is important to understand the context of Russia's aggression and the very nature of its renegade ruler. He is a dangerous dictator uninterested in looking forward, but malevolently looks backward to the eventual expansion of a Russian empire. He is a violent aggressor to which diplomacy has always been answered with hostility. Further to the obvious truth, which I think the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance understands better than almost anybody in this place, there was a valiant effort on the part of two American presidents to try to make Putin a constructive partner with some version of diplomacy, but here is the problem: He does not want to be. The response from the government is a truly curious one. First, a loan that might suggest there was more hope of bringing back the special relationship that we once had, followed by an announcement of an extended training mission that would have been extended anyway. They are now on the brink of war without the equipment needed. Over the course of the debate, we have heard about Canada's unwavering support, but as some of my colleagues have stated, I invite the government to go beyond the words of support. We have two very clear options for how we respond. We can immediately provide lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine, restore RADARSAT imaging and use the Magnitsky sanctions against those responsible for Russia's aggression against the Ukraine, or we can stand idly by. I believe the government truly understands the threat, but I do not believe they act as though they do. Maybe it is time.

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Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.)

Jan/31/22 10:12:48 p.m.
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Madam Chair, it was interesting to hear the member speak about former Prime Minister Stephen Harper. The member said that he spoke unambiguously. I do not disagree; I think he spoke unambiguously. I think the current Prime Minister has spoken unambiguously. I think our Minister of Foreign Affairs has spoken unambiguously. One of the things that our Prime Minister has done, preceding my time in office but during my time in office as well, is that he has also acted unambiguously: unambiguously imposing sanctions, unambiguously extending and expanding the training mission, unambiguously providing additional foreign aid, unambiguously moving those trainers into eastern Ukraine where they were not originally, unambiguously helping Ukraine to reform so that it could be stronger and therefore better withstand the Russian invasion, and unambiguously signing a free trade agreement. When Stephen Harper was prime minister, he refused to send those lethal weapons that are now being asked for. My question is, why?

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Ms. Melissa Lantsman

Jan/31/22 10:14:08 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I know that the member for Etobicoke Centre is an advocate for the community and I know that table would be better off for having his advocacy there because I know that he does not agree with the actions that the government has taken. I know that he believes that the government can do more. I do want to address one of the things that the member said, which is Canada's not arming Ukraine in 2014. He is probably referring to that. It is because Ukraine did not ask and it is because a lot of things have changed in almost nine years. That is the reason. There was an ask and there is a need, and things have become quite dangerous. I know this member knows that and I know this member would believe that and I know this member would advocate if he had a seat at the table.

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Mrs. Cathay Wagantall (Yorkton—Melville, CPC)

Jan/31/22 10:15:07 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I travelled to Kyiv months after Russia's invasion into Crimea and I met seriously injured soldiers being treated by Canadian surgeons assisting Ukrainian doctors. I met with officials there, and since then in Canada, through meetings arranged by Ambassador Shevchenko. They all asked repeatedly that our government reinstate our radar satellite systems that could have made a significant impact in improving their realization of what Russia was up to back then, and even now what Ukrainians are facing because of a lack of that oversight. I would like the member to speak to the fact that our government truly failed them in that moment.

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Ms. Melissa Lantsman

Jan/31/22 10:15:49 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would like to speak about it a bit more. There are a number of issues that have changed on the ground since the time the hon. member visited and the last time that we truly had a debate in this House about the situation in Ukraine. There are a lot of things that we can still do and there are a lot of things that the Ukrainians have asked for that Canada has not provided. There is an opportunity for the government to do the right thing and provide those three things that I spoke about in my remarks. Believe me, on this side of the House we would absolutely welcome that, and I would be the first to applaud the government if it did the right thing.

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Hon. John McKay (Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.)

Jan/31/22 10:16:52 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with my former seatmate, the member for Vancouver Centre. It is getting late, and I note that at the end of this week is the beginning of the Olympics. There will be one nation out of all the nations in the world that will not be allowed to compete under its own flag, and that is the Russian nation. The Olympic committee finally got sick of all the corruption, doping, cheating and lying that was coming out of the Russian government and will not allow Russian athletes to compete under their own flag. This is what we, meaning the family of nations, the universe of nations, including Canada, the U.S., the U.K. and Ukraine, deal with on a daily basis, because nothing happens in Russia without Vladimir Putin's express permission. When he says there might be 100,000 troops on the Ukrainian border or that they are just exercises and there is nothing to see, it is just nonsense and no one should really pay much attention because he does not speak the truth very often. I was once privileged to spend some time with Senator Lisa Murkowski. She has available to her a map of the Arctic. I do not know if it is available publicly, but it is like looking at the Arctic from 50,000 feet above the North Pole. What it shows is the remilitarization of the Arctic by the Russian government, with all of the refurbished old bases and all of the new installations as well. While Canada, even from that map, is far away from the Russian bases, the U.S. is very close, at the Bering Strait, as are Finland, Sweden, Greenland, Denmark and Norway. The remilitarization of the Arctic, in my judgment, is what contributes to why it is in Canada's best interests to fully participate in the Ukrainian repulsion of this Russian aggression. Henry Kissinger once said that nations do not have permanent friends or enemies; they only have interests. Regardless of whether one is Ukrainian or not, or whether one has diaspora in one's community or not, in my judgment it is in Canada's best interests to fully support Ukraine. Russia routinely launches massive cyber-attacks on Canada, the last one being at a hospital in Newfoundland. It is nothing but a mafia shakedown: “If you pay us millions of dollars, we'll let you have your hospital back.” Russia routinely steals significant amounts of industrial and commercial intellectual property. Russian oligarchs have purchased significant pieces of industrial and commercial property in order to burrow deeply into Canadian society, and that money has been generated from very dubious sources. Russia is quite skilled at the game of misinformation and disinformation. There are many, many more reasons why Ukraine's security is our security and our security is Ukraine's security. I would ask members to cast their minds along the eastern European flank to western Russia, because if Ukraine goes, the next place to go is Poland and the Baltics. When we get past Poland and the Baltics, we get to Finland. After Finland is Sweden, Norway and Denmark, and suddenly this is at our border. I see my time is up, and I look forward to my colleagues' questions.

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