SoVote

Decentralized Democracy

House Hansard - 20

44th Parl. 1st Sess.
January 31, 2022 11:00AM
Context: House Hansard - 20 - Jan/31/22
Hon. Erin O'Toole
  • Jan/31/22 7:22:58 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the minister for her intervention, as she asked if I knew the facts. Yes, I do. In fact, Operation Reassurance; Operation Unifier; the sharing of military intelligence, including RADARSAT, and military equipment; and the training she talked about, the training we are both very proud of our men and women in uniform for, were all started by the Conservative government. Only reluctantly, as the minister knows, one of her predecessors, Mr. Dion, withdrew some of that support and wanted to normalize relations with Russia. That was their foreign policy out of the gate. However, whether it is the appeasement of Russia, a completely out-of-touch policy on the communist regime in China, letting down our NATO allies or not even getting phone calls from the United States anymore, Canada needs to stand up. A loan is important, and I thank the minister for the loan, but once Ukrainians lose their liberty and freedom we cannot loan them the freedom they will need and we cannot loan them the military equipment when the attack is under way. I urge the minister to do the right thing and give Ukrainians the tools they need to defend themselves.
203 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ)
  • Jan/31/22 7:24:35 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, I thank the opposition leader for his speech. To those of us in the Bloc, it is pretty clear that beneath the veil of humanitarianism lies the real reason for Canada's involvement: fossil fuels. That said, here is my question for him: Would his hawkish, provocative stance not just strengthen Russia's ties with China?
58 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Hon. Erin O'Toole
  • Jan/31/22 7:25:00 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, we must stand with our allies. Defending our values internationally is not provocation, especially when Russia is poised to invade Ukraine. The time to defend our values as a country is now. As I said, our men and women in uniform have always stepped up to defend freedom. They did so at Vimy Ridge, in Afghanistan, in France, in Europe and in Korea. Now we have to step up to provide military equipment to Ukraine. This is not the time for rhetoric on the part of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Prime Minister, nor is it the time for Twitter hashtags. It is time to take concrete action for our allies, who are presently in danger in Ukraine.
122 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)
  • Jan/31/22 7:26:12 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, one thing that bothers me the most about the member's comments today is that he speaks about lethal force and action, but I do not hear him talking about diplomacy. I do not hear him talking about using what we can to de-escalate the situation right now. What I want him to understand is that it is the Ukrainian people who will die if there is a war in Ukraine. It is the women and children in Ukraine who will die if we continue to escalate the situation. Now, his party, when it was in power, was the one that decimated foreign aid. It was the one that decimated our diplomatic corps. Perhaps he does not believe in diplomacy. Perhaps he does not believe in sanctions and the power of the international community to find a peaceful resolution. I am wondering why he thinks, as someone who will not have to go to war in Ukraine, that war is such a wonderful idea for the Ukrainian people right now.
173 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Hon. Erin O'Toole
  • Jan/31/22 7:27:17 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, the member was misstating the fact that I am suggesting war is a good thing. I am fortunate to be a veteran who never had to serve in Afghanistan, but I have seen, not only in my time in the military but in my time as the veterans affairs minister, the incredible toll that war and conflict take on our military and on civilian populations. It is those very Ukrainians that she says are at risk who are now in legion halls and church basements being trained on how to defend themselves. All they want is for their friends in Canada to give them some equipment so they do not have to call senior citizens to the front lines. If we do not have appropriate military counterbalance, which is why NATO was created, we cannot engage strategically and effectively in diplomacy. We support diplomacy. It was Raynell Andreychuk, a senator, who brought Magnitsky sanctions to Canada, sponsored in the House by my friend from Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman. We should be using sanctions. We should be using pressure. We should be using diplomacy. However, hollow commitments through social media empower a dictator like Vladimir Putin. We need to stand by our allies and stand up for Ukraine.
210 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)
  • Jan/31/22 7:28:51 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, our leader spoke briefly at the end about Magnitsky sanctions and I want him to follow up on that point. What I have been hearing from many experts is the importance of using the Magnitsky act to specifically target kleptocrats who are investing Vladimir Putin's money overseas. I wonder if the opposition leader has a comment on specifically targeting those kleptocrats as a way of getting at and having real accountability from the Putin regime.
78 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Hon. Erin O'Toole
  • Jan/31/22 7:29:24 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my learned friend for his advocacy. He is absolutely right. Not only is the Putin regime putting Ukrainians at risk and putting stability in Europe and indeed around the globe at risk, but it is also leading a kleptocracy that is robbing Russians of their ability to actually build up their lives. Putin is doing this through some oligarchs and through a system of money laundering throughout the world. We need to work with our allies, through FINTRAC and other agencies, to root this out using sanctions and pressure, and call these regimes what they are. It should trouble the minister that one of her mentors, Mr. Dion, was actually advocating rapprochement with Mr. Putin after he invaded and occupied Crimea. It was her government that withdrew RADARSAT imaging, which allowed Ukrainians to track Russian movements in the Donbass. For years, Vladimir Putin has been plotting what he is doing now. Now is the moment for us to give our ally what it needs. We need to continue, as my friend said, to apply Magnitsky sanctions and work diplomatically. However, we have to make sure we have a real stick to have diplomacy. Right now our friends in Ukraine are asking Canada to stand alongside the United States, the United Kingdom, Poland and other allies, and be there for Ukraine when it needs us most.
232 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. James Maloney (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.)
  • Jan/31/22 7:31:12 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition accused the minister of returning from Ukraine having made empty promises and using empty words. I am looking at a tweet from none other than the defence minister of Ukraine talking about the centuries-old friendship between Canada and Ukraine, and thanking her, our Minister of National Defence and the Prime Minister for delivering on upping the campaign in Operation Unifier. Are you saying that he is using empty words and engaging in Twitter diplomacy?
82 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
The Speaker
  • Jan/31/22 7:31:44 p.m.
  • Watch
The hon. Leader of the Opposition will respond in 30 seconds or less. I want to remind hon. members to speak through the Chair and not directly across. The hon. Leader of the Opposition.
34 words
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Hon. Erin O'Toole
  • Jan/31/22 7:31:51 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, it is rather ironic that a Liberal MP will stand and criticize my critique of Twitter diplomacy by quoting a tweet about diplomacy. What does Ukraine want? We all know this. The minister knows this from the closed-door meetings. We saw the former Ukrainian diplomat to Canada talking this weekend about the requests, for many years now, for lethal military aid. Our friends are in need, and while loan guarantees and a range of other things are positive, we have to help Ukraine now. I ask the minister to finally deliver on this military equipment.
98 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Montarville, BQ)
  • Jan/31/22 7:32:44 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, I must say that I was somewhat surprised by the minister's answer to my question a few moments ago. To use a mixed metaphor, I would say that my ears could not believe my eyes. Is the minister suggesting that if we were to push for a diplomatic solution, if we were in favour of that, if we insisted on it, we would be playing into Russia's hands? Is the minister suggesting that President Macron is playing into Russia's hands and creating division among the allies by picking up the phone to speak to Vladimir Putin? I believe that the answer is obvious. Had the minister paid the least bit of attention to some of my speeches, in particular the one I gave to the Parliamentary Assembly to the Council of Europe, she would know that I have been highly critical of Russia on several occasions. If we want dialogue, we cannot have a unilateral monologue. If we want to be a credible mediator between Russia and Ukraine, we have to speak to Russia as President Macron did. As far as I can see, aside from crying wolf, the Canadian government has done nothing to lead us to a diplomatic solution. That is all I wanted to say. Do I recognize that the aggression against Crimea and Russia's destabilizing actions in Donbass are unacceptable? Of course I do. I do not even see how the minister can call that into question. Not only am I surprised, but I am a little offended. What I said is that we must engage in dialogue.
269 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
M. Stéphane Bergeron (Montarville, BQ)
  • Jan/31/22 7:34:57 p.m.
  • Watch
As I mentioned a few minutes ago, the fact is that the build-up of 100,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border is pretty much the same as it was a year ago. What has changed? We do not really know, as the minister's officials at Global Affairs have admitted. Why then this talk of escalation, this fearmongering that is leading us to think that Russia is going to attack tomorrow morning, whereas both the Ukrainians and the Russians agree that that is not going to happen? Why take this alarmist tone rather than trying to calm things down? Again, why pull out non-essential staff from our embassy when basically only the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia have done so? The other NATO allies have stayed behind to show their support for Ukraine in a concrete way. Why pull out and contribute to escalating ongoing tensions? Earlier the minister told us that Russia is the aggressor. I do not disagree. I challenge anyone to disprove the unwavering support of the Bloc Québécois and its members for our ally, Ukraine. However, I would like to point out to the minister that Jocelyn Coulon, an expert in geopolitical issues and former advisor to her predecessor, former Liberal candidate Stéphane Dion, put himself in Russia's shoes for a minute. He explained that when Germany reunified, NATO promised Mikhail Gorbachev that the Atlantic alliance would never cross the border of East Germany. What happened after that? Several Soviet bloc countries and even some former Soviet republics were admitted to NATO, a move that Russia perceived as an attack, aimed at bringing western troops closer to the Russian border. For whatever reason, Russia decided that the red line would be Ukraine and that it would not allow Ukraine to join NATO. The minister was talking about unity among NATO alliance countries. That is great, but can the minister deny that at the Bucharest summit in 2008, France and Germany expressed reservations about the possibility of admitting Ukraine to NATO? All I am saying is that we can maintain the illusion that all member countries of the NATO alliance are on the same page, but that is not the reality. This explains why the French president phoned Vladimir Putin while Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom continue with this rather belligerent rhetoric towards Russia. There are very divergent views within NATO. It is not playing into Russia's hands to admit this; it is simply acknowledging the facts. Where do we go from here? Do we really want to be a useful mediator? If the answer is yes, we must act accordingly. We need to take consistent action to lower tensions. We have made commitments to Ukraine. We have to honour those commitments to Ukraine, but it would be disingenuous to pretend that Ukraine's admission to the NATO alliance does not require the unanimous approval of all the alliance members—but where is the unanimity of the NATO alliance on this issue? I think we have to be honest with ourselves and with Ukrainians. However, we still have a responsibility towards Ukraine, because we have given our word. There are therefore some things we need to do from the perspective of the partnership that should exist between Ukraine and the NATO alliance. There are things that must also be done to meet Ukraine's needs. Although we obviously favour the diplomatic option, we cannot deny that Ukraine is asking for Canada's support, which, admittedly, is relatively limited. Although the Standing Committee on National Defence noted in 2017 that a number of experts would support Canada selling weapons to Ukraine, the reality is that Canada itself has few weapons that could help Ukraine, particularly in terms of anti‑tank and anti‑aircraft defence. There are certainly things that can be done in terms of intelligence and cybersecurity, considering that Ukraine was recently the victim of a Russian cyber-attack seeking to destabilize its institutions. There is work to be done on that front, alongside diplomatic efforts, to get these parties talking and to try to find a peaceful resolution to the current conflict.
706 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.)
  • Jan/31/22 7:41:51 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, my colleague mentioned dialogue, and I agree. I would like to remind him of the three diplomatic channels all allies are currently using. The first is direct dialogue between the U.S. and Russia, and we are, of course, in touch with the Americans on this. The second is between NATO and Russia. As a NATO member, we are actively participating in NATO's dialogue with Russia. The third is the Normandy format, which developed out of the Minsk treaty and which states that four countries must engage in diplomatic discussions on security in Europe, in particular with respect to Ukraine. The four countries include Ukraine and Russia, along with France and Germany. This is why President Macron spoke with President Putin. This is why I had the opportunity to dine at the Quai d'Orsay with my French counterpart, Jean‑Yves Le Drian. I was there to speak directly with France, and I also had the opportunity to speak with the German foreign affairs minister. That is why France and Germany's position on this matter is extremely important. I hear my colleague's concern about being able to talk to the Russian government given that we strongly disagree with it. That is why I took the opportunity to speak with my Russian counterpart while I was at the OSCE meeting in Sweden just the other month. I raised the subject of Ukraine. I told him I was extremely concerned, and his reaction was a very strong one. We will continue to raise those concerns. I want to point out to my colleague that this is actually not a potential invasion of Ukraine, but rather another potential invasion of Ukraine, because Crimea has already been invaded and the Donbass is currently occupied as well. What we need to keep in mind at this point is the fact that one country has decided to use force to violate the sovereignty and territorial integrity of another country. My question to my colleague, whose political allegiance I am obviously aware of, is this: How can he condone one country violating the sovereignty of another by use of force?
359 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron
  • Jan/31/22 7:44:47 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, how can the minister claim that we support Russia's forcible annexation of Ukrainian territory? Based on what speech, what intervention, what press release can she say that? What intervention by the Bloc Québécois can she refer to to claim today that we support Russian aggression? If she had been listening a few moments ago, she would have heard me say that the attack against Crimea and Russia's destabilizing efforts in the Donbas region are absolutely and totally unacceptable. How can she now claim that we support these aggressions? It insults everyone's intelligence to hear the Minister of Foreign Affairs say such a thing here in the House today. It is totally unacceptable. I hope that the minister did not invoke the Normandy Format to avoid responsibility for the role Canada must play if it truly wants to play its past role, namely the role of helping resolve disputes between countries. I hope the minister is not simply shrugging off responsibility by putting it on the shoulders of France and Germany. Thank goodness that France and Germany are not playing up the danger like the Anglo-Saxon bloc of countries, if I can put it that way. It is totally unacceptable to say such a thing. When the minister tells us that there is communication between NATO and Russia, she should know that the partnership for peace between them is de facto non-existent, because not only is there no longer any collaboration on the civilian and military levels, but the respective missions of the two are over. How can the minister claim that there is a relationship between NATO and Russia when it has been almost completely severed? As for relations between the United States and Russia, we cannot applaud the fact that President Biden is also crying wolf about a possible “re-invasion”—let us call it that, because the minister insists—or a new invasion into Ukrainian territory. When the U.S. government cries wolf and says that if the intervention were limited, the reaction from western countries could be just as limited, I think that should give pause for thought. I will say it again. It is a good thing that Germany and France are there to try to actually find a diplomatic solution, because this does not seem to be the path that Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs wants to take.
409 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC)
  • Jan/31/22 7:47:42 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, I would prefer to make a comment rather than ask the member a question. He explained his position very clearly as well as that of the Bloc Québécois. I would therefore prefer to comment on the narrative. I am a Canadian MP and I am of Polish descent. I was born in Poland and lived the history of eastern Europe. I would say that when we talk about NATO moving its borders closer to Russia, it means that countries like Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Lithuania, Estonia and others asked of their own accord to become members of NATO to escape the oppression from Moscow and the Russian federation. It was a choice, not just in terms of foreign policy, but a choice made by these peoples to escape from those who occupied their countries and who were part of the Warsaw Pact. When we talk about the history, we can say that NATO is not the aggressor, but rather the one who accepted new members that wanted to be part of an alliance that would defend them. I think it is important to point that out. It is not the Russian interests that should prevail, but the interests of these Eastern European peoples and countries.
210 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron
  • Jan/31/22 7:48:56 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, in my youth I visited Poland when it was under the communist regime. At the time, General Jaruzelski was in power in Warsaw. I was also able to travel to Hungary and Czechoslovakia, which both had communist governments. I understand that these countries sought to get out from under the control, or at least the influence, of their powerful neighbour Russia, then the Soviet Union. That is not the point I want to make. I am simply pointing out what Jocelyn Coulon, a former Liberal advisor, said about how NATO failed to keep its word. NATO promised Mikhail Gorbachev that it would never expand beyond East Germany. That said, the countries in question were clearly acting in good faith by wanting to join NATO. That is not what this is about. This is about the promises that the west made to Russia, to Mikhail Gorbachev, the last leader of the Soviet Union, that NATO would not expand beyond East Germany. From the Russian perspective, we failed to keep our word, but does that undermine the legitimacy of the countries that wanted to join NATO? Absolutely not.
192 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP)
  • Jan/31/22 7:50:39 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, while New Democrats support the non-combat military training, we do not support the provision of arms or lethal military gear, as my colleague so adequately put forward. I noticed the member across the way reacted quite well, so could he expand on his thoughts to the pushing from Conservative members on that provision of lethal military gear and what the consequences of that are.
67 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron
  • Jan/31/22 7:51:14 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, Canada has already been supplying non-lethal gear to Ukraine since 2014. As I have already stated publicly, if we were to provide so-called lethal weapons, Russian soldiers would not be shaking in their boots. Canada is unfortunately not in a position to provide the anti-tank or anti-aircraft weapons Ukraine would need to hold off Russian aggression. The Conservatives like to say that we should sell weapons, but the truth of the matter is that we are not really in a position to provide military assistance to Ukraine. We must be mindful of that.
99 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)
  • Jan/31/22 7:52:04 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Edmonton Strathcona. On behalf of all New Democrats, our thoughts are with the Ukrainian community in this difficult time. Ukrainian communities here in Canada, in Ukraine and around the world are not only grappling with a global pandemic, which has caused incredible difficulties in people's lives and immense sacrifice and hardship, but also, on top of that, the people in Ukraine are now worried and deeply filled with anxiety and fear about the threat of invasion. In all of this, I want to be very clear that New Democrats collectively stand in full solidarity with the people of Ukraine. My thoughts are with the Ukrainian community at this difficult time. Our Ukrainian friends not only have to deal with the pandemic like the rest of us, but on top of that, many are concerned about the threat of a Russian invasion. The NDP stands in solidarity with the Ukrainian people. We know this fear, worry and anxiety is based on legitimate threats. Russia has already invaded Ukraine and at this very moment, as we all know, illegally occupies both Crimea and Donetsk, occupations New Democrats strongly denounce. The ongoing and active conflict in eastern Ukraine continues to cause a heavy humanitarian toll for millions of civilians. Even before this last escalation of tension, 2.9 million people, including over 400,000 children, required humanitarian assistance. Children in eastern Ukraine have grown up knowing conflict for the past eight years, enduring violence, shelling and being displaced from their homes. Escalating hostilities could lead to further mass displacement, a refugee crisis and an untold number of casualties. This conflict continues to have serious humanitarian consequences. For example, millions of people have been forced to leave their homes, and the regional economy has been devastated. Canada was the first country to recognize Ukraine's independence 30 years ago. We must continue to support an independent and democratic Ukraine. New Democrats believe Canada should continue to work with our allies to find a real diplomatic solution to this looming crisis. Canada should focus its efforts on diplomacy, non-lethal assistance and economic sanctions against Russia, including but not limited to the Magnitsky sanctions as a deterrent. Bloodshed must be avoided through coordinated international pressure and stronger sanctions. It is not by sending guns that we will succeed in stabilizing the situation. In the wake of decisions by Conservatives and Liberals, Canada's diplomatic corps has been severely reduced such that we now have less diplomatic leverage to help in this conflict. Nevertheless, we believe that peace can only be achieved through diplomacy, not war. New Democrats have always believed that peace is achievable only through diplomacy. New Democrats urge the Canadian government to continue to do its part to support the people of Ukraine through robust diplomacy. Millions of eastern Europeans are counting on us to help foster peace. Let us not disappoint them.
494 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border
Ms. Rachel Bendayan (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Tourism and Associate Minister of Finance, Lib.)
  • Jan/31/22 7:56:30 p.m.
  • Watch
Mr. Speaker, I was pleased and relieved to hear the leader of the NDP say that he stands in solidarity with Ukraine. However, the NDP member for Winnipeg Centre described the Ukrainian government as “an anti-Semitic, neo-nazi & fascist militia”. The NDP member for Churchill—Keewatinook Aski retweeted a suggestion that our Deputy Prime Minister's “Nazi past” is the reason that Canada is supporting Ukrainian sovereignty. Will the leader of the NDP denounce these inflammatory, offensive comments from his caucus members in the House, comments which I would say resemble, very eerily, Russian propaganda?
102 words
All Topics
  • Hear!
  • Rabble!
  • star_border