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Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.)

Jan/31/22 8:11:56 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am proud to rise as a part of this emergency take-note debate on Ukraine and the buildup of Russian forces along its borders. I will be sharing my time with the member for Parkdale—High Park. A week and a half ago, I was joined by a number of my colleagues in requesting this emergency debate. We thought it was important that members from all parts of this country and from all parties have a chance to discuss and debate Canada's and the international community's response to this crisis that is so important not only to the people of Ukraine but to our allies and to Canada. I would like to thank members from all sides of the House for supporting the motion for this debate. Just over 30 years ago, Ukraine declared its independence. When Ukraine declared its independence, I was watching the news coverage with my grandfather, Yvan. My grandfather was a great Ukrainian patriot. When he lived in Ukraine under the Soviet Union, he risked his life on many occasions to try to defend Ukrainian culture and heritage and to allow for and enable Ukraine's independence. When Ukraine became independent, we were watching it on the news. It was probably the proudest day of his life. I was about 14 years old at the time, and I remember my grandfather saying to me that now that Ukraine was independent we had to keep working to defend its independence. I called him gido. I said to him, “Gido, what are you talking about? Ukraine just declared its independence. The people of Ukraine want it. The international community has recognized it. You are wrong. The battle is over.” I was wrong. In 2014, Russia twice invaded Ukraine: once in Crimea, when it illegally annexed it, and then in eastern Ukraine. That war has raged until this very day. Fourteen thousand Ukrainians have died in that war and one and a half million people have been displaced. In 2014, the world did not do enough. It did not do everything possible to deter an invasion, and it did not do everything possible to support Ukraine. Recently, Russia has amassed 100,000 troops on Ukraine’s borders along with significant military assets. This aggression is a major threat not only to Ukraine, but to Canada and to our allies. An invasion of Ukraine would put Russian soldiers on NATO's eastern border. Just imagine the military, diplomatic and financial resources Canada and other countries would have to invest to defend our NATO allies from a further invasion. It also puts Canada under threat. Russia is our neighbour to the north, and Russia has tried in the past to claim parts of the Canadian Arctic for its own. If we allow an invasion of Ukraine, I can only imagine the message that would send to countries that wished to invade their neighbours or change borders by force. I can only imagine the message it would send to Russia with regards to the Canadian Arctic. That is why Ukraine’s security is Europe’s security, it is the world’s security and it is Canada's security. That is why I believe Canada and its allies must do everything possible to deter an invasion of Ukraine and to support Ukrainians. Over the past eight years, this government has done a tremendous amount to support Ukraine. We heard the Prime Minister and the minister speak to that. Last week, the Prime Minister announced a number of important initiatives: the expansion of Operation Unifier, humanitarian aid, a $120-million loan, etc. He also announced that Minister Anand, our Minister of Defence, would be travelling to Ukraine to understand what Ukraine’s needs were and that all options were on the table. The minister is in Ukraine now. I hope that we do everything possible and everything we can to deter an invasion and support Ukraine. On that day with my grandfather in 1991, I was wrong. In 2014, the world was wrong. We cannot afford to get this wrong again. There is too much at stake. Ukraine's security is Europe's security, it is the world's security and it is Canada's security, so let us take stock of what is needed. Let us take every step we can and every step that is possible. If we do this, we will succeed in deterring an invasion. If we do that, we will have much more to celebrate, not for one year and not for just another 30 years, but for generations to come in Ukraine, in Canada and around the world. Slava Kanadi! Slava Ukraini!

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The Speaker

Jan/31/22 8:16:21 p.m.
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Questions and comments, the hon. member for Calgary Shepard. Before he goes to his question, I just want to remind members that although I realize it is kind of relaxed and we are here, when we are referring to someone we refer to their title and not their name. I know sometimes it slips away on us, so I just want to remind everyone. The hon. member for Calgary Shepard.

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Mr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC)

Jan/31/22 8:16:44 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, that was what I would term a strong endorsement of support for Ukraine and for ensuring its territorial integrity. I am of Polish origin. Many eastern Europeans fled to Canada over the last century. They usually came here in different waves. Eastern Europe is still a troubled region, typically because of the Russian Federation and the different names that it has been known by. The member talked about doing everything possible and about all the options out there. I want to remind him that countries such as Turkey, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Poland are sending arms to Ukraine. Could the member comment on that, and on whether the Government of Canada will be doing that as well?

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Mr. Yvan Baker

Jan/31/22 8:17:33 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, like I said, Canada and the international community need to do everything possible. As the Prime Minister announced, the minister is in Ukraine to assess Ukraine's needs and what can be best done to deter an invasion. I look forward to hearing what the Minister of National Defence has to say when she returns. Like I said, it is incumbent upon all of us in the international community to do everything we can, because it is not just in Ukraine's interests but in Canada's interests as well.

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Ms. Anita Vandenbeld (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Development, Lib.)

Jan/31/22 8:18:20 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for articulating so well exactly what is at stake here. We must remain steadfast in supporting Ukraine. I am very pleased to see that our government is standing up to Russian aggression and that we are doing so with every tool available: with our diplomatic tools, as we have seen both our foreign affairs minister and our defence minister in Ukraine in recent days; with over 400 sanctions on individuals or entities; with a sovereign loan of $120 million to Ukraine; and through our presence there and years of military support to Ukraine through Operation Unifier and Operation Reassurance. I would like to ask my colleague why it is so important that we use every single tool at our disposal to show our resolute support for the people of Ukraine.

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Mr. Yvan Baker

Jan/31/22 8:19:19 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her question and for her support. I think it is important for a number of reasons. First of all, when we look at what could happen if Russia invades Ukraine, Russia will have again violated the sovereignty of its neighbour Ukraine. This is not the first neighbour's sovereignty that Russia will have violated. It invaded Georgia in 2008. This is a threat to the international world-based order where we respect each other's boundaries, and we respect each other's borders. If this is allowed to continue, other countries, be it Russia or others, will get the message that the international community will tolerate military powers invading their neighbours. We cannot allow that. It is a threat to our European allies, and it is a threat to Canada. As I said before, Russia has in the past tried to lay claims to the Canadian Arctic. I think we have to give some serious thought as Canadians to what would happen and what kinds of threats are posed to us and to our allies in Europe, if Russia is allowed to do this. Vladimir Putin has, in the past, expressed his desire to reconstitute the Soviet Union under Russia with some of the eastern European countries that my Conservative colleague spoke about. Let us imagine the threat to them. This is a threat not only to Ukraine but to Europe and to Canada, and this is why it is so important that we take every measure possible.

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Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP)

Jan/31/22 8:21:01 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, as New Democrats, we support the extension of Operation Unifier, but we remain concerned about reports of extremism within small parts of the Ukraine military and problems in our own military. We feel that our own forces should not train or support any far-right extremist groups. Does the member agree that we should assist the Ukrainian military to become more democratic and accountable, and how are we doing that currently?

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Mr. Yvan Baker

Jan/31/22 8:21:32 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is important that we help the Ukrainian military improve in every way possible. In fact, that is what I think Operation Unifier has been doing. If we look back at all the various elements of training that Operation Unifier has provided, it is not just combat training. It is leadership. It is integration. It is learning how the militaries of countries that are part of NATO operate. That is so critical for Ukraine, because not only does strengthening Ukraine's military allow it to defend itself against these Russian invasions, but it increases the potential, the probability, that Ukraine will be able to enter NATO. That co-operation, that integration among NATO allies, is one of things that makes this defensive alliance possible. I think Operation Unifier is an incredibly important mission, and it plays an incredibly important role in the short term and also in the long term.

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Mr. Arif Virani (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade, Export Promotion, Small Business and Economic Development, Lib.)

Jan/31/22 8:22:28 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, today on January 31 here in Ottawa, I want to reference something at the start of my comments. I agree fundamentally on the importance of protests and free expression in any democracy, but I also agree we must all denounce hatred and vilification. Things like the waving of swastikas and Confederate flags are jarring at all times, particularly on the fifth anniversary of the Quebec mosque shooting and days after International Holocaust Remembrance Day. Equally jarring is seeing people dance on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. The National War Memorial is dedicated to those veterans who paid the ultimate sacrifice to give us the freedom to do things like protest. Those veterans deserve our respect because they died fighting authoritarianism. This brings me to authoritarianism right now, and what we are witnessing in eastern Europe and with Vladimir Putin. Let us make no mistake. The aggressor in this context is Russia. It is Russia who invaded and annexed Crimea illegally. It is Russia who invaded Donbass eight years ago. It is Russia who is now the aggressor amassing 100,000 troops on Ukraine's eastern and northern borders. Our support of Ukraine is steadfast. That is not a partisan issue, thankfully, in this chamber. It is based on our long and steadfast history. In recent years it has meant things like Operation Unifier and Operation Reassurance. It has meant sanctions under the Magnitsky legislation, and it has meant things like the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement. In the last several weeks, literally in the last 14 days, that bond has ramped up. What have we done? What concrete actions have been taken? This has been put into some debate on the part of the official opposition. We have sent HMCS Montréal to the Mediterranean as part of Operation Reassurance. That left Halifax two weeks ago. We have had the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Kyiv. The minister of defence is in Kyiv as I speak. We have sent $50 million in humanitarian assistance, something the NDP has injected into this debate, rightfully, about assisting on the ground. That is being done with Canadian federal dollars. We have provided sovereign loans to the tune of $120 million, something emphasized by the Minister of Foreign Affairs. We have not just renewed Operation Unifier, but we have expanded Operation Unifier. We are providing military equipment. We are also addressing something that is brand new, which did not exist at the time the official opposition was in government, such as cyber-threats. We are addressing cyber-threats and using Canadian know-how to team up with Ukrainian know-how to better assist in that particular aspect of the fight. We have launched a renegotiation of the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement, and I was happy to participate in that launch with the Minister of International Trade. Why does this matter? It matters because, as we have heard from my colleague from Etobicoke Centre, the security of Ukraine is the security of Europe, which is the security of the world and, ergo, Canada's security. It matters to Canadians. We have heard the member opposite for Calgary Shepard talking about his own Polish background. I represent, for example, Polish Canadians and Ukrainian Canadians. For any person in this country who is from eastern Europe, or who has ancestry from eastern Europe, they know what Russian aggression looked like under the Soviet Union and they are seeing it again now. It is causing them considerable anxiety, anxiety to which we must respond as a nation-state. What is at stake? It is the sovereign ability of any nation to determine, on its own, its security arrangements and to make independent decisions about how to protect its citizens. To those who say Canada is a small player and the actions it takes will be inconsequential, I say they are dead wrong. They are dead wrong because Canada can lead and has led. How have we led? When we deliver $120 million in sovereign loans, the EU then follows with additional money in sovereign loans, because they see Canada leading by example. We have heard Jens Stoltenberg, the secretary general of NATO, reference the leadership of Canada. That is what we need more of. That is why I called, together with the member for Etobicoke Centre and six of my colleagues, for this debate this evening. What I pledge in this chamber right now, on behalf of my constituents and on behalf of the Canadian people, is that we need to continue to do more. What more can be done? Two things can be done. We can address economic sanctions as a package, and we can address economic sanctions now. We need to demonstrate to a person like Putin that the cost of potentially going to war is far more expensive than the cost of peace. Lastly, we must address Ukraine's defence where it is needed. Where we can provide assistance in defending Ukraine, we must do so, including things such as providing electronic jamming equipment, which I understand the Ukrainian minister of defence has recently put in a request for. Those are the types of things I will advocate for in this chamber, I will advocate for with my government and I will advocate for on behalf of the Ukrainian Canadians whom I represent.

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Mr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC)

Jan/31/22 8:27:29 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for what I also think is a speech in strong support of the right of Ukraine to its self-determination and its borders. I mentioned there is a series of countries that have offered and already transferred weapons and arms to Ukraine in an effort to try to bolster its military forces to act as a deterrent to the Russian Federation potentially invading different parts of Ukraine and prolonging the war it has been fighting with them for several years. Will the member perhaps explain the Government of Canada's delays in sending arms from Canada to Ukraine in support of our allies to ensure they can defend themselves against Russian aggression?

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Mr. Arif Virani

Jan/31/22 8:28:23 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I take issue with a certain characterization he made that the Government of Canada has been delaying. The fact that I was able to list about five different actions we have taken in a 14-day span is the antithesis of delay. We have taken direct action. Most notably, the issue of providing assistance to defend Ukraine is a live one. It is one where all options are on the table. That is my first point. My second point is that we have to consider what Canada has been able to do thus far. Since Operation Unifier was launched, we have provided training to no less than 33,000 Ukrainian soldiers. That is an unbelievable number. It is a significant impact for a middle power in terms of providing security and assistance in the sovereignty and defence of Ukraine. I have been there myself to observe those troops during the celebration for independence on the Maidan in 2018. I have seen what Canadians are doing. I have seen what Ukrainian Canadian soldiers are doing on the ground. It is needed, it is wanted and it is respected. That is more of the type of contribution we need to see.

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Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ)

Jan/31/22 8:29:31 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, we heard members from the governing party mention several times that the crucial thing, the thing that matters most in this case, is diplomacy and deterrence. Many have criticized the government's diplomatic efforts, saying that it was focusing a bit too much on soft power in circumstances that did not call for it. The actions taken may also be causing some confusion. The Ukrainians are complaining that we are not responding to their request for weapons and that we are responding too late, while Russia is accusing Canada of being too alarmist by recalling its diplomatic corps. I have a simple question. Can my colleague suggest what could have been done better in terms of diplomacy, since that is what is at the heart of this issue for the government?

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Mr. Arif Virani

Jan/31/22 8:30:26 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, that is a good question. To be honest, from a diplomatic point of view, western allies need a more unified approach. For one thing, we have not talked about the Nord Stream 2 pipeline during this evening's debate. Germany is reliant upon Nord Stream 2 as a source of energy. This is causing some division among western nations. We know the European Parliament, areas of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are against Nord Stream 2. If that kind of project goes ahead, it poses some instability within the western alliance. It is that kind of diplomacy we need to unify the western alliance so that we can approach projects like Nord Stream 2 in a unified manner and approach combatting Russian aggression in a unified manner.

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Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP)

Jan/31/22 8:31:15 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I have quite a strong community in London from the diaspora, the Ukrainian folks there. Daria, the president of the London chapter of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, brought her concerns directly to me. Considering the member has such a diverse community, I would like to hear some of the concerns he is hearing directly from his community members as to what is ultimately going on and the government's response to it.

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Mr. Arif Virani

Jan/31/22 8:31:56 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, what I am hearing from constituents in my community is the anxiety, fear and concerns about action and wanting as much action as possible as quickly as possible. I am hearing from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. The president of the congress lives in my riding. What I am also hearing is that, when people misconstrue what is actually being provided and misconstrue the situation among the Ukrainian armed forces, it does not help matters much. I am going to return to a comment raised earlier about the member for Winnipeg South and the very volatile comments she made, which unfortunately still exist on Twitter as I speak. Yes, an apology has been made by the leader of the NDP, but the fact that those tweets from the member for Winnipeg South remain on the record is not constructive to the conversation or to the support of Ukraine.

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Mr. James Bezan (Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, CPC)

Jan/31/22 8:32:39 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I will be splitting my time with the member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke. I want to make sure I correct the member for Parkdale—High Park, who just spoke. It was the member for Winnipeg Centre who made that tweet, not the member for Winnipeg South. It was a colleague of his, and I know it would be unfair to him to associate him with those ridiculous and hurtful comments by the member for Winnipeg Centre. I know that all of us here, first and foremost, stand in unity with Ukraine, and I know that we all stand here to denounce the aggressive escalation of actions taken by Vladimir Putin and the Russian Federation. We all know that Putin is provoked by weakness. That is why it is so important that we all come together and stand in unison to denounce how the Russian Federation has tried to force NATO's hand, is using Ukraine as a bargaining chip in all of this and is prepared to again invade Ukrainian sovereign territory, on top of the illegally occupied lands that they are on in Donbass and Crimea, territories which we, especially those of us on the Conservative benches, will always see as Ukrainian sovereign lands. I would never acknowledge that they are Russian, even though they have their forces holding the citizens in Crimea and Donbass at gunpoint. Vladimir Putin has played this game before. It is coincidental that it always seems to happen around the time of the winter Olympics, whether it was the invasion of Crimea after the Sochi Olympics and before that in Georgia and South Ossetia. It seems the Olympics are the trigger for Vladimir Putin to invade a neighbour. Ukraine has done nothing but try to get along with the Russian bear to the north. It has definitely wanted to see more integration with the European Union, with NATO and its western allies. Those of us who are of Ukrainian heritage are proud of our Ukrainian heritage, and we have always stood up for Ukraine. Luckily, I am an elected member, as many members here are, and I can stand and denounce Vladimir Putin and his kleptocrats in the Kremlin for the disgusting display they are putting on right now, with over 140,000 troops positioned along Ukraine's border. They have troops in Belarus, they have troops across northern Ukraine, right around Kharkiv, down through the Donbass and Rostov-on-Don. Their navy is sailing on the Sea of Asov and of course on the Black Sea, with 30,000 troops in Crimea today. All of that is just sabre-rattling, but we could see a greater escalation. As a Conservative and a Ukrainian, I am proud that, as was very well articulated by the Leader of the Opposition, it was Conservative governments that recognized Ukraine sovereignty back in 1991. It was a Canadian government under Stephen Harper that started Operation Unifier, that provided the first defensive weapons for Ukraine, that worked with it on reform and trying to de-escalate the situation, because we understood that a strong Ukraine would be a deterrent to an invading Russia. NATO gets that, and that is why NATO has always kept the door open to have an open-door policy with Ukraine as a potential member. Russia is coming forward now with ridiculous demands about trying to increase its sphere of security, trying to get NATO to withdraw troops from neighbouring nations that are already NATO members and saying that Ukraine can never get there. We know that we have to do more. We have to use Magnitsky sanctions and other economic sanctions to deter Russia now, not after it invades. We know Ukraine wants lethal weapons. The former ambassador of Ukraine to Canada, Andriy Shevchenko, also said it needs to have lethal weapons. We need to restore the RADARSAT images that the Liberals cancelled in 2016. We thank the Liberals for what they did in expanding Operation Unifier. It is something we have been calling for since 2019 and 2021, but there is more that needs to be done. The half measures that have been taken so far by the Liberal government have not deterred Vladimir Putin. All they have done is appease him.

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons (Senate), Lib.)

Jan/31/22 8:37:35 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman for his intervention. He certainly knows a great deal about this topic, and I have always respected everything he has had to say. I have learned a lot from him on this file. We used to sit on the defence committee together. At least I used to be there. I imagine he still is. We had the opportunity to travel to Ukraine a number of years ago. One of the things I felt so inspired by as a Canadian was the stories we heard when we were there. I remember the member and I sitting among other people when the chair of the defence committee of the Ukraine told us that other countries were coming to support Ukraine because Canada was there. Canada played an incredible leadership role in mobilizing and encouraging other countries to get involved and be part of that presence in Ukraine. Can the member share his thoughts on how Canada's role goes beyond, at times, just monetary and other asset resources?

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Mr. James Bezan

Jan/31/22 8:38:48 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, that was a great trip to go over there and see how our military was working with and training the Ukrainian armed forces and Ukrainian national guard. I want to thank all those members of the Canadian Armed Forces who, over the past eight years, have been going back and forth to Ukraine and working with them. By training Ukrainian troops, we have not only made them better soldiers, but we have also helped save lives. We know that more of that has to be done, but that is why we started calling, back in 2018, for a long-term expansion and extension of Operation Unifier. Conservatives have also been calling for, since 2018, us to provide lethal defensive weapons because Ukraine has asked for them. Our other allies have provided them. Why is Canada not doing the same?

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Jan/31/22 8:39:45 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I would also like to thank the member for his comments. I have worked with him in the Canada-Ukraine Friendship Group. He is extremely knowledgeable on this topic, and I have also learned a great deal from him. Earlier in the year, we were on a television interview together and he brought something up that has been sitting with me for a very long time. As I listen to Conservatives talk about how we need to escalate, have lethal weapons and amp up this war talk, my thoughts go back to when he said the Conservative government would concede not one inch. How did that work out in 2014? That was the government of the Conservatives, and it gave more than an inch. Why does he think that a Conservative government, which was not able to prevent the invasion of Ukraine in 2014, would be able to prevent the invasion with the exact same rhetoric in 2022?

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Mr. James Bezan

Jan/31/22 8:40:49 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, our rhetoric needs to be strong. It is one thing that Vladimir Putin understands. There is only one person that is talking about war in Ukraine and that is Vladimir Putin. However, what we are talking about, what the Ukrainian-Canadian community is talking about, and what the people of Ukraine are asking for is the ability to defend themselves. They are prepared to do the street fighting if Russian soldiers march over the border again to try to grab more Ukraine territory. We want to make sure they have the ability to do to protect their homeland, their families and their communities. In not providing those lethal defensive weapons, and in only providing empty rhetoric, we have failed them. It is time for us to stand up, do the right thing and stand with our friends, families and allies in Ukraine.

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