44th Parl. 1st Sess.
March 30, 2022 02:00PM
- Mar/30/22 4:25:04 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I have had lovely and intellectual exchanges with the hon. member over the course of our time here since 2015, but I reject the premise of his question.
Today, the error is in presuming that a judge would always give the minimum sentence. In the serious set of facts that he is describing or alluding to, a judge would have the power to go to the maximum sentence, according to the circumstances involved. What we are doing with this bill is not what he is referring to. Rather, we are referring to people who are innocently or naively caught up in something and not necessarily the major perpetrator, or who perhaps have a problematic addiction that needs to be dealt with. The bill allows a sentencing judge to take those circumstances into account and fashion a sentence that fits the crime.
Serious crime, I will assure the hon. member, will always be punished seriously in this country.
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- Mar/30/22 4:26:10 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I found it very interesting that when the minister was giving the last answer and he said that judges would have the opportunity to go to the maximum, a heckle came from across the way from the member for Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, who said that they will never do it. Nothing underscores more their distrust in the justice system than what the member heckled during the answer. That is the truth. That is what this comes down to.
My question for the minister is more simple than that. Nothing could divide the Conservatives and the Liberals more than when it comes to issues like this. The Liberals believe in using the correctional system to rehabilitate and reintegrate people into society—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
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- Mar/30/22 4:26:53 p.m.
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Order. There is a lot of heckling going on here.
I will let the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands finish his question.
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- Mar/30/22 4:27:10 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, nothing shows a more clear difference between the Liberals and the Conservative than an issue like this. The Liberals believe that a correctional institution is there to rehabilitate and reintegrate people into society when possible, whereas the Conservative approach is much different. It is to lock them up and throw away the key.
Can the minister talk about how important it is for this government to make sure that we give people who have a chance at being rehabilitated and reintegrated into society the opportunity to do that?
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- Mar/30/22 4:27:47 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I will also refer to the heckle by the hon. member from the other side. With respect to MMP subsection 95(2) of the Criminal Code that was struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada, the Parliamentary Budget Officer has said that taking out the minimum mandatory penalty has had no impact on the overall total amount of sentencing that has been handed out by judges. It is false to say that judges always go to the minimum.
What we are doing is what the hon. member wants us to do, which is help give judges the ability to give appropriate sentences so that we can rehabilitate. This is the point the hon. member is trying to make. We need to look at alternatives to incarceration.
I mentioned I was in Washington. The growing consensus is that we need to massively reduce incarceration rates to get better outcomes for communities, increase public security and rehabilitate victims. That is the belief we have in the criminal justice system. It is the animating belief behind this bill, and it is something that I hope hon. members will share. It is certainly shared across the United States and in many other jurisdictions, like the United Kingdom.
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- Mar/30/22 4:29:25 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to rise on behalf of the people of Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo.
I will first address the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands. I challenge him to find one case where the maximum was imposed, if that was the case.
If we are going to discuss mandatory minimum sentences, I note there are a lot of mandatory minimum sentences in the Criminal Code. There are mandatory minimum sentences for sexual offences and mandatory minimum sentences for murder. Is that where we are going next with the logic that is being espoused by the minister today?
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- Mar/30/22 4:30:02 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I obviously do not share the member's skepticism in the criminal justice system and I do not share his skepticism over improving the criminal justice system based on evidence. What we have done in this bill is selected roughly 20 minimum mandatory penalties that have a demonstrated impact on the overrepresentation of Black and indigenous people and other racialized Canadians in the criminal justice system. That is the goal here.
It is a goal that is necessary. It helps us identify systemic racism within the system. It helps us achieve better outcomes for communities and victims, but also for offenders in terms of their rehabilitation. It also helps bring the justice back to the justice system. That is what we are doing here. I hope we succeed. I hope we get the support of all members of the House.
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- Mar/30/22 4:31:00 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I would like a chance to ask the minister the same question I asked him earlier because the Bloc Québécois has a constructive approach.
I think we have always had a constructive approach with respect to the bill on the table right now. We have looked at its merits and its flaws, and we have tried to find ways to improve it.
The problem we have now is that the government is invoking closure. Closure here is problematic because it prevents us from really digging into things. We are wondering if closure is going to be the government's new modus operandi and if it finds this to be a constructive approach.
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- Mar/30/22 4:31:39 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question. He will have a chance to work with us and propose amendments during the committee's study.
This is not a new bill. We introduced it in the previous Parliament, and it was discussed here and in public many times.
I noted that the hon. member for Rivière-du-Nord participated in those discussions. We did have time to study this bill, and we will have time to study it in committee. We will respect the parliamentary process.
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- Mar/30/22 4:32:36 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, MMPs are a part of the destructive Harper-era policies that have not deterred crime, have not kept us safer and have clogged up our courts. This party is the reason we are in this position. They were more concerned with locking up low-risk first-time offenders and targeting people of colour than truly keeping our communities safe.
Could the hon. minister please expand on CSOs and how they will help communities of colour?
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- Mar/30/22 4:33:03 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I personally feel that the conditional sentence order part of the bill is the most important part of the bill, in the sense that this is what brings back the flexibility in sentencing that allows for a judge to attack a problem or rectify a problem in the sentence that ought to be attacked. For example, a conditional sentence order will allow a judge to say a person needs to serve home arrest and get the appropriate mental health supports or the appropriate rehabilitation supports if there is a problematic addiction.
It allows for communities to take on the responsibility for the rehabilitation of people through a community justice sentence, which we are funding. This is one of the major ideas that has come from the communities themselves, whether they be racialized, indigenous or Black. They want to help rehabilitate people. Experts in the field tell us that this is the best way to move a community forward, to move society forward and to help everybody heal while protecting public safety. That is what conditional sentence orders do.
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- Mar/30/22 4:34:18 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, it is very concerning to hear the minister and the NDP-Liberals misrepresent what this bill would do. To be clear, what this bill would really do is reduce mandatory minimums for all kinds of existing gun crimes and also allow for house arrest for the kinds of crimes that leave people traumatized and harmed forever, like human trafficking, like sexual assault, like kidnapping, like abduction of kids under 14, like causing bodily harm by criminal negligence and causing bodily harm through assault or with a weapon, or like assaulting a peace officer causing bodily harm or with a weapon.
That is what this bill would actually do, so how on earth can the NDP-Liberals pretend that this protects public safety and has anything to do with justice?
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- Mar/30/22 4:35:07 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I would ask people to pay attention to what is being done in the bill and what is not. This is not the minimum mandatory penalties part of the bill, as a previous speaker from the other side seemed to intimate. This is the conditional sentence orders part of the bill and here we are allowing a judge to give a serious sentence where there is a serious crime. A conditional sentence order, and I tell the hon. member this, can only be done for a crime in which the sentence would be under two years and would not endanger public safety. They do not involve the kinds of acts, in any way, that were raised by the hon. member.
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- Mar/30/22 4:35:47 p.m.
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It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Dufferin—Caledon, Taxation; the hon. member for Courtenay—Alberni, Health; the hon. member for Kenora, Health.
It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the house.
The question is on the motion. Shall I dispense?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Chair read text of motion to House]
The Deputy Speaker: If a member of a recognized party present in the House wishes to request a recorded division, or that the motion be adopted on division, I invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.
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- Mar/30/22 4:37:20 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, we request a recorded division.
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- Mar/30/22 4:37:25 p.m.
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- Mar/30/22 5:21:44 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
I declare the motion carried.
The hon. Minister of Justice is rising on a point of order.
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- Mar/30/22 5:21:59 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am tabling the government's responses to Order Paper Questions Nos. 323 to 332.
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- Mar/30/22 5:22:43 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, inscribed at the top of one of the great law schools of this continent is the motto “Not under man, but under God and law”. I would read these words and feel a sense of pride that ours was a nation of laws, not men; a nation of citizens, not parties; of Canadians, not Liberals or Conservatives. For a nation as big and diverse as ours, our institutions, our norms and our rules bind us together, give shape and order to our common lives even when we disagree, and especially when we disagree.
However, every so often comes a time to make a change, a step in a better direction, a turn of the page, because in our very creed as Canadians, we are always striving to do better. The time has come to turn the page—
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- Mar/30/22 5:23:39 p.m.
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I must interrupt the hon. member very briefly.
I wish to inform the House that, because of the proceedings on the time allocation motion, Government Orders will be extended by 30 minutes.
The hon. member for Mississauga—Malton.
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