44th Parl. 1st Sess.
May 19, 2022 10:00AM
- May/19/22 10:04:02 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, as I have indicated previously this evening, this is an area that is very important to me.
As the government's procurement authority, PSPC is committed to ensuring that human rights and labour standards are protected and that ethical practices are maintained by suppliers and manufacturers from which we procure vital goods, such as personal protective equipment. Notably, PSPC requires bidders responding to tenders for PPE to certify that they and their first-tier subcontractors comply with a set of fundamental human and labour rights requirements and are free from forced labour discrimination and abuse, with access to fair wages and safe working conditions. This requirement builds on PSPC's policy on the ethical procurement of apparel, which since 2018 requires apparel suppliers to certify that they and their direct Canadian and foreign suppliers comply with a set of fundamental human and labour rights.
In July 2020, clauses on ethical procurement and origin of work were added into the new PPE contracts and in all newly issued requests for proposals for personal protective equipment. The origin of work clause requires bidders to provide the name, address and country of the manufacturers of the item, including subcontractors. The ethical procurement clause requires bidders to certify that they and their first-tier subcontractors comply with the same human rights and labour standards as set out in the policy on ethical procurement of apparel.
PSPC has made changes to strengthen its contractual framework and has also updated the code of conduct to include new expectations for suppliers and their subcontractors on human and labour rights. It also has implemented new anti-forced labour contract clauses to ensure that we can terminate contracts in the event of violations. These clauses protect the department from financial liability if imported goods are not released at the border because their importation is prohibited under the forced labour prohibition in the Customs Tariff Act.
In addition, PSPC works closely with other government departments, such as Employment and Social Development Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency. At CBSA's request, ESDC labour provides support by conducting research and analysis on the risk of forced labour for specific complaints or allegations received pertaining to the forced labour import prohibition administered by the CBSA.
Given the complexity and scope of the problem, addressing forced labour will take sustained effort over time. As the member mentioned, four ministers have in their mandate letters the commitment to eradicate forced labour through legislation.
We look forward to doing more in this very important area.
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- May/19/22 10:06:55 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, a number of questions have been raised regarding Nuctech and whether contracts were awarded to the company. There may be questions regarding contracts awarded through Public Services and Procurement Canada as a department and as a common service provider. Can the minister clarify if contracts were awarded to this company?
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- May/19/22 10:07:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, with regard to Nuctech, I can confirm that Public Services and Procurement Canada as a department does not have any contracts with Nuctech. That was the point that I was making earlier, that we currently do not have any contracts.
As a common service provider in the past, PSPC undertook competitive procurements on behalf of the Canada Border Services Agency, and four contracts were awarded to Nuctech, the most recent being in 2019. However, since that time there have been no new contracts awarded to the company, so there have been no contracts from 2019 to the current time.
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- May/19/22 10:08:05 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I am going to share my time with the member for Louis-Saint-Laurent.
I thank the minister for her work tonight. It is quite a feat to put in all the time and to answer all the questions, and I thank her for that.
Andrew Kendrick, a naval architect with 40 years' experience, appeared before committee. His statement was that it costs three to five times the world price and two to four times longer to deliver ships in Canada versus the rest of the world. Does the minister have any comment on that? Has she investigated and verified this to be true, or does she feel we are in line with world price and world delivery?
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- May/19/22 10:08:46 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, there is no question that COVID has presented challenges, and the shipyards are no exception to that. These challenges have involved problems with getting labour, as well as supply chain issues, and there is no question that that has resulted in some delays and some costs. I would confirm that.
I think the testimony the member is referring to was not testimony that was given by everyone, although I can appreciate that there may have been a person who gave that specific testimony.
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- May/19/22 10:09:27 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, he was the project manager from 2007 to 2010 for AOPS, so I think he is very well informed. The surface combatant went from $14 billion to $26 billion to $56 billion. The Parliamentary Budget Officer says it could be $77 billion.
At what point does the minister say we have got to slow down here and we need to go line by line to understand how this has quadrupled or gone up even more?
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- May/19/22 10:09:56 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, just to be clear, one price is with taxes and the other is with the exclusion of taxes. On projects of this magnitude, we have to understand and appreciate that.
With respect to the procurement of projects, I have said with the national shipbuilding strategy how committed I am to this strategy. The economic benefit that this has provided for Canadians and the 18,000 jobs that it is creating or maintaining annually are extremely important. We are going to continue to support this strategy.
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- May/19/22 10:10:31 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I have no question at all about the economic benefits. I have no question about how hard the workers work in all the shipyards. The same work is getting done around the world using the same steel and the same technology, yet Canada still pays four to five times the amount.
Will the minister look into this and find out how this can be?
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- May/19/22 10:10:53 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, what I would say with respect to that question is that shipyards around the world are experiencing the impacts of COVID-19 and, as I have said, there are labour shortages and supply chain issues. There are a number of issues that have added to the complexity here.
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- May/19/22 10:11:14 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, that is fine. She also mentioned tax. There is not $40 billion worth of tax on a $14-billion project, unless taxes are really being hiked in the future. Another one is the offshore oceanic vessel. The original price tag was $100 million, and now it is $1 billion. How do we have a ten bagger on a project? That seems like mismanagement.
The other question is this: Will she open the books to the Parliamentary Budget Officer so he can go through them? He had to use U.S. numbers to come to his conclusion of $77 billion.
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- May/19/22 10:11:53 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, we are transparent on contracts. We are open and transparent on those contracts, and those numbers are available.
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- May/19/22 10:12:03 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, if one comes to committee, they will find out the Parliamentary Budget Officer did not have that much help and he did not really feel like it was transparent. He said that in his statements.
One other question I have is about ArriveCAN. How much did ArriveCAN cost the taxpayers of Canada, from the concept to the product being used today? How much did ArriveCAN cost?
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- May/19/22 10:12:28 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, that is with CBSA, not procurement.
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- May/19/22 10:12:34 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, is the procurement minister saying that her department had nothing to do with procuring the ArriveCAN app?
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- May/19/22 10:12:42 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, not with respect to the app. There may be services that have been related, but not with respect to the actual app.
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- May/19/22 10:12:53 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, we definitely need some further investigation on it. On COVID vaccines, Moderna was originally pegged at 35 million doses per year. It is now 25 million doses for 2022. It went from 35 million to 25 million.
Why was there a decrease of 10 million doses?
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- May/19/22 10:13:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, what I would say to that is that in 2021 there were 35 million doses and in 2022 there were 20 million doses.
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- May/19/22 10:13:34 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is on her website. That is where I got it from. There is a footnote there. Pfizer is also projected to be 65 million doses a year. Therefore, 25 million doses plus 65 million doses is 90 million doses.
How much will those 90 million doses cost the Canadian taxpayer this year?
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- May/19/22 10:13:54 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I have a couple of things I will say to that. The first is with respect to doses. We do have arrangements with the suppliers that if we need to push doses further back, we are able to do that.
The second thing, with respect to the cost, is to say the health and safety of Canadians was our top priority. We procured over 100 million doses, and every Canadian has the eligibility to have a full complement because of the strong procurement.
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- May/19/22 10:14:22 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, we were talking about transparency tonight. I asked a simple question.
How much does it cost to procure 90 million doses for 2022? It should be pretty easy to answer.
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