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Jun/2/22 4:21:43 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, do we have to wait until the next election or would it be better if these changes happened sooner? If the changes will make the House work better and possibly save money, why not implement them as soon as possible? That is what I think, and there is also a question of efficiency. This will also have an impact on the taxes paid by taxpayers, whom we represent.

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Ms. Lisa Marie Barron (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, NDP)

Jun/2/22 4:22:16 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to first acknowledge that I agree with the efforts to re-evaluate the morning prayer and instead replace it with a moment of silence. I voted in favour of that motion, and I agree that we need to make that space safe and available for everybody in whatever way they would like to use it. I want to ask my colleague this question in French. Emergency and take note debates are important tools. Should there be a permanent mechanism to make it easier for members to request them?

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Mrs. Julie Vignola

Jun/2/22 4:23:07 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, sometimes there are debates that need to be held urgently when we hear in the news or in some other way of a problem that needs to be resolved quickly. Is the procedure too difficult or too long? I think that is an excellent question. As I said at the beginning of my remarks, when it is time to change something, the worst thing we can say, even us as parliamentarians, is that it has always worked that way and has worked well. We have to keep questioning our own practices and ways of thinking in order to improve them.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Jun/2/22 4:23:52 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Beauport—Limoilou. I would just like to ask her if she is aware of the suggestions made by Hugo Cyr, a professor at the the Université du Québec à Montréal's department of legal sciences, on the issues of prorogation. He made the suggestion, which I support, of holding a mandatory vote in the House of Commons before a Prime Minister requests a prorogation.

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Mrs. Julie Vignola

Jun/2/22 4:24:31 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am not aware of that proposal, but I find it very interesting. The Prime Minister and the government represent not just their party, but also all the options that are presented in their ridings and in ours. The proposal is interesting and should be considered.

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Mr. Alistair MacGregor (Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, NDP)

Jun/2/22 4:25:01 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to start by recognizing what a privilege it is to serve as a member of Parliament in this place. It is an honour I have had since 2015. To the constituents of Cowichan—Malahat—Langford who are watching today's debate, I know it can seem a lot like inside baseball. We are talking about the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. It is not always the most riveting of subject material, but I will say to them is that this debate is important because the Standing Orders allow us as their elected representations to do our job effectively. I want to approach today's debate from the perspective as a member of the opposition, because I think that for members on this side of the House, the Standing Orders sometimes take on supreme importance, especially in the context of a majority government, as I experienced during my first four years here, but also in the context of a minority Parliament. It is what gives us a structure, some semblance of reliability on what our day would be like and the tools that we could use to try to push different agendas. I think many members would agree with me that in this place time is our most valuable currency, and once it is spent, we do not get it back. Essentially, a lot of the House's business is the management of time. There is a constant battle between the government's priorities and what the opposition wants, and sometimes that can lead to some pretty epic clashes. I have been witness to that over the years. I can remember my first experience coming into the original House of Commons chamber in Centre Block in December 2015. I had just had my orientation session, and I was walking down the hallway on a lunch break. The security guard saw me wandering around aimlessly. She asked if I wanted to go inside the chamber, and I asked if I could. She said, “Yes, you are a member of Parliament. Just tell me when you are finished, and I will lock the door.” My very first experience of not being in the gallery, but actually being in the chamber, in Centre Block, was to have that entire chamber to myself, to just sort of feel the weight of history. One could almost re-enact the famous debates that had happened in that place, the great moments of Canadian democracy. Then, of course, I received my gigantic green book, House of Commons Procedure and Practice. A lot of my parliamentary colleagues would acknowledge that I am a little bit of a geek on procedure and practice. I have not had as much time as I would have liked in recent days to devote to that because my critic duties are keeping me quite busy, but I have always been interested in the mechanics of how this place works. I want to take this opportunity to both draw on the experience that I have had over the last six and a half years to maybe suggest ways that the procedure and House affairs committee could maybe take some of the substance of today's debate and make some improvements to how we operate in this place. I just want to start off with a nice quote from the great Stanley Knowles, when he gave a speech to the Empire Club in 1957. He said: It is the opposition's right to insist at all times on the full protection of the rules of debate. The government is entitled to that same protection, but in addition it has its majority with which to establish its will. The opposition has only the rules for its protection, hence the authorities on parliamentary procedure emphasize the greater importance to the opposition of the only protection it has, the protection of the rules. That sets the context of why, from this side of the House, this debate probably takes on a little more importance, especially when we do have those majority governments. Speaking on the time as a currency aspect, we all have great ideas for legislation. The government absolutely does monopolize most of the time with Government Orders, but we have had some tremendously good ideas coming not only from members of the back bench on the government side but also from the opposition side in the form of Private Members' Business. It is to our great loss that we do not spend more time discussing Private Members' Business. One thing I think the procedure and House affairs committee should take a look at is trying to carve out more time in a sitting week to debate Private Members' Business so we can get a full spectrum of ideas, get them their airing, and really encourage those ideas to come forward and have that substantive debate. In the 42nd Parliament, I drew position 159, so it took me four years just to get to the first hour of debate. I was substantially more lucky in the 43rd Parliament being in the top 30, and I think in this one I am in position No. 94. It is all luck of the draw, but if we had more time each week, more members would have that opportunity to put forward their ideas. I have heard in previous speeches the need for more importance to be attached to PMBs for when they go to the other place, and I know we do not have control over the rules of the Senate, but at the end of the 42nd Parliament we did see a lot of very good private member's bills from the House unnecessarily held up. I think that was shameful to the democratic process. I would also like to see giving members of Parliament the opportunity to launch take-note debates based on their petitions. We know that petitioning the Crown is one of the oldest practices in our system of Parliament. In fact, if we go back to the days of the 13th century monarch Edward I, this was a way for the commoners to petition the Crown their grievances, and the substance is still very much the same. We as members have the opportunity to stand in this place, make a short introduction on the nature of the petition and what people are asking for, but it would be great, after we get a government response to that petition, because sometimes they are quite unsatisfactory responses, to have the opportunity to pursue the government's response in a more fulsome way and make sure that we can debate it. With question period, I often joke with my constituents that question period is an hour of my life I will never get back each day I am here. It is a fact. The 35 seconds we have to pose a question and the 35 seconds the government has to answer does not lend itself to credible debate in this place. We had a unique time in the early days of the pandemic in 2020 when we had the COVID-19 committee of which all members of the House were members with basically a super committee of the whole, and we set up a system like at committee, where members could have five minutes with a minister of their choice. If our question was not actually answered by the minister, they could not just go back to the same old rote talking points or they would look quite foolish. It actually forced both minister and questioner to have a fulsome debate, to have backup questions and to stick on point. I know we might have to figure out how the timing works out in the five minutes, but the rules are in committee of the whole are basically that the minister gets approximately the same amount of time as the questioner used to pose the question. We could adopt the same rules there. I know that question period is when most Canadians tune in, but I always tell my constituents please, please do not judge our work based on that one hour alone. I know the rest of the work that we do is not as interesting, it does not have the same kind of fireworks, but is far more substantive, and there is a real opportunity for reform. On the other side, we do have the ability during adjournment proceedings debate to follow up on questions where we felt the answer was not satisfactory, so either we reform question period to give a little more exchange or we give more time to adjournment proceedings so we are not limited to just three per day. I know time is a valuable thing in this place, but we could find opportunities to schedule that. I will end on this: We need to have a serious conversation about how we make this place more family friendly. We have found through the pandemic that we can operate in a hybrid fashion. Speaking for myself, I do enjoy being back here in person. I love seeing my colleagues in person, but I also want to recognize that we are trying to encourage more people from different backgrounds to come to elected politics. The way to do that is to make it more family friendly. We need to show young women and young men, those with families, those with different life circumstances, that they can come here and serve, whether it is in person or online. That is a healthy thing for our democracy, to try to make sure that we build a legislature that is reflective of what Canadian society looks like.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Jun/2/22 4:35:08 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I can understand why we look at question period, but I will just raise a quick point, and that is on the suggestion of five minutes. We would probably get 10 questions versus 40 questions, and the demand for the number of questions is quite high. I think maybe it is the adjournment proceedings that we could possibly further explore, or other ways in which we could do it. Interestingly enough, in Manitoba we actually copied the idea of the shorter questions and answers from here in Ottawa, because we had five minutes. I think it was kind of unlimited. We would get a question that would go four or five minutes long and then the answer would be four or five minutes long, and people would say that question period had already come to an end but only a few people had asked questions, so it was that tradeoff. I like the adjournment motion. I have a question to the member in regard to this. I raised an idea. If the member had a choice and wanted to increase debate, would the member choose, and he can think about it, to go from 8 o'clock in the morning until whatever time, like 8 o'clock in the evening, on a Friday? All I would have to do is notify the Speaker on a Wednesday that I want to speak on private member's bill x or I want to speak on a government bill. As long as it is at second reading or even possibly third reading, then we would have a full day in which we could speak to the bills and the legislation that we want for a full 10-minute speech with five-minute answers. I ask, just to get the member's thoughts on that, versus having a dual chamber.

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Mr. Alistair MacGregor

Jun/2/22 4:36:34 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, absolutely, I am open to all ideas on this. As we all know, on Fridays we sit from 10 until 2:30. For people like me, their riding is about as far away from Ottawa as we can get, so that is valuable time for me to be able to get back to my riding and spend time with my family and my constituents. However, there are Fridays when I am staying here in Ottawa, and if I was able to give a signal to the Chair and other members of this place that I wanted to debate a certain private member's bill, we could find a way to schedule that, and we could probably make up the time past 2:30 to maybe schedule two, three or four private members' bills. For any opportunity, I am flexible, just as long as we agree on the premise that more Private Members' Business does need to find time to have debate in this place.

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Mr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC)

Jun/2/22 4:37:28 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I like the member's idea on adjournment proceedings, but I think it should be moved to earlier in the day. It should actually follow question period and it should be shorter. Perhaps the system could be either a random draw done by the Speaker right away through the clerks, or a first-come, first-served system. Whatever it is, could the member comment on that part? It would be like a continuation of question period, perhaps, just in a longer format. That way, members do not have to stay until the very end of the night and parliamentary secretaries would not have to spend the entire day hoping for the member to show up. The second part is about making this place a family-friendly environment. I wonder if the member could comment on pairing, because I know everybody seems to sometimes like the voting app, until it does not work in someone's case because he has grown out facial hair and the app does not recognize him, and then he has to call in just to make sure his vote is counted. That is more of a problem for the men in this place. There is a specific one I am thinking of who continuously has problems with the voting app because he has let his beard grow out, but we already have a tool that has existed for hundreds of years and that was used extensively during World War II to ensure members would be able to vote. Since 1992, it has been connected to the whips. There is a binder on the desk for the table officers where a member can pair their vote and it is signed off on by the whip. Could the member perhaps speak to that use of pairing, instead of continuing with the voting app?

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Mr. Alistair MacGregor

Jun/2/22 4:38:50 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, on the first part, I will share a rare moment of sympathy for parliamentary secretaries who have to stay, because we know that, especially at this time of year in June, otherwise known as “silly season”, sometimes the House is sitting until midnight, so parliamentary secretaries have to be there and ready, possibly, to stay until 12:30. On his question, I like his ideas about adjournment proceedings. If we could find a way to schedule it after QP, that would be great. We are all here during the middle of the day. On the voting question, I am not sure if I am going to land on one side or the other, but as long as we agree to the premise that we are going to try to make this a more family-friendly and inclusive environment, I am open to a more in-depth discussion at the procedure and House affairs committee on what that would look like. I think we should approach that debate with an understanding that we need to find a way to get more people to participate, because right now I think they look at what the House of Commons schedule is like, and they just do not see how they could manage that with their family responsibilities. That is something I think we, hopefully, can all agree needs to change in this country.

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Jun/2/22 4:40:05 p.m.
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It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Edmonton Strathcona, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship; the hon. member for Kitchener Centre, Seniors; the hon. member for North Okanagan—Shuswap, Taxation.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Jun/2/22 4:40:31 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, given what we have seen today, we may need a new standing order addition to Standing Order 51 to say that a minimum amount of debate is needed so we all have a chance to contribute to a discussion on standing orders when another more important issue intervenes, as some party takes the time of the House on something else. That is a new thought because we really only have this one chance in every parliamentary session to talk about our Standing Orders, and they are so important. I am limited to 10 minutes, but I could easily talk on this matter for some considerably longer time. I want to start with some ideas that came to us on the parliamentary Special Committee on Electoral Reform. We had some of the country's best and most thoughtful political scientists speak to us, and I am going to take some presentations that are not on the matter of our voting system, although clearly parliamentary democracy would be improved if we had a more co-operative consensus-based approach, such as occurred in New Zealand when it got rid of first past the post and moved to mixed member proportional. I know from colleagues who are members of Parliament in New Zealand that consensus and co-operation became much more the rule of the day, with much less hyperpartisanship, and Parliament works better. I want to point to some recommendations that came from professor Hugo Cyr with the Université du Québec à Montréal and professor emeritus Peter Russell from the University of Toronto. One was from Professor Cyr. It may strike people as an unnecessary change to our standing orders, but it is important. We are a parliamentary democracy in the Westminster tradition, which means we do not elect a prime minister. A lot of people get confused on this point, including some people running to lead another party. It is important to think about Professor Cyr's recommendation, which is that after an election, between electing the Speaker and the Speech from the Throne, this Parliament would elect the prime minister, because all of us elected to this place are, in theory, equal. The prime minister is first among equals. It is a foregone conclusion who becomes prime minister once the seat count of the parties is known, but that does not mean it is not worthwhile to educate all of us on this point every now and then by electing a prime minister from among our own number. The second point that Professor Cyr made, which is more substantive, is that there should be no prorogation by any prime minister, and the way that Professor Cyr put it was, “To amend the Standing Orders so that asking for Parliament to be prorogued or dissolved would not be possible without first obtaining the approval of the House of Commons. If a prime minister were to do so, that would result automatically in a loss of confidence and the Governor General would not be bound by the prime minister's advice requesting an early dissolution or prorogation without first obtaining the approval of the House of Commons.” There was another proposal that I think is very important. This is one of the only parliaments in the world where there is no time limit for when we must convene following an election. Professor Peter Russell suggested, as well as Professor Cyr, that right now, in theory, a prime minister, after an election, could wait a year or two and not convene parliament. There is no rule. Almost every other democracy in the world puts in a time limit, whether it is eight weeks or whatever. That is a change to the Standing Orders that would be welcome. There is also a suggestion that is quite significant, and I know that the hon. member for Elmwood—Transcona is an advocate for this one as well. It is that we go forward with constructive non-confidence votes. This is described by Professor Russell in his testimony. Some parliaments, such as in Germany, Spain and Sweden, permit only a constructive non-confidence vote. He goes on to say: A constructive non-confidence vote is one that names an alternative prime minister. When a constructive non-confidence vote passes, it both defeats the incumbent government and indicates how a new, viable minority government can be formed without calling an election. This practice underlines the principle that in a parliamentary democracy the people elect a parliament...not a government. These are very significant changes suggested by the best and brightest in our country, who happen to have shared their time with the Special Committee on Electoral Reform. I would like to suggest another thing that would really make a big difference, and that would be if we enforce the rules we had. The Standing—

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Jun/2/22 4:45:22 p.m.
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I just need to interrupt the hon. member. The hon. member for Manicouagan.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

Jun/2/22 4:45:25 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I wonder if we have quorum. And the count having been taken:

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Jun/2/22 4:45:30 p.m.
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Yes, we have quorum. The hon. member may proceed.

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Jun/2/22 4:45:49 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the suggestion I would have is that we enforce our own rules. That would include that, during question period, only the Speaker decides who seeks the floor. I have a quote from our former Speaker in a ruling. The hon. member went from being Speaker to being leader of the Conservative Party. In response to a request from the late Mark Warawa that his rights had been violated, the Speaker ruled, “The right to seek the floor at any time is the right of each individual member of Parliament and is not dependent on any other member of Parliament.” He further said, “If members want to be recognized, they will have to actively demonstrate that they wish to participate. They have to rise in their places and seek the floor.” We are the only country in all Westminster parliamentary democracy countries, the only country in the Commonwealth, where a Speaker has surrendered the fundamental right and duty of a Speaker to recognize the member who will then have the floor. It was an accident of history. It was because Jeanne Sauvé, when she was Speaker, said she could not see members in the far corners. She asked for the party whips to do her a personal favour and provide a list. This has now become custom and tradition, but it is still not part of our rules. While it is not part of our rules, we should take some time to discuss it in the review of the Standing Orders at PROC and ask what they do in the U.K. I asked and I found out. In the U.K., any member who is going to ask a question the next day provides a letter to the Speaker in advance showing the question they want to ask. The Speaker then identifies that member so they are not all at the same time looking for the floor when the Prime Minister is answering questions. It works well. It would make a fundamental improvement in this place in terms of decorum and the functioning of the place. Someone, as a rising politician, wants to curry favour with someone else who controls their life. If the Speaker has no influence at all on whether someone gets their TV time during question period, it is easy to ignore what the Speaker says. The person who controls one's life is the party whip, because they put the names on a piece of paper. The importance of the question we have to ask about the work we are doing, as parliamentarians, is that the power shifts entirely to backroom political parties and away from the Speaker, who controls this place in every other Parliament around the world except here. We need to show deference to the Speaker and deference to Speaker's authority, and pay attention to the Standing Orders, which say we are not to interrupt another member while speaking and we are not to speak disrespectfully of any other member in this place. They are broken daily as rules. I lament this very often because I think it brings this Parliament, democracy and all of us into disrepute. The public looks at what we are doing. Earlier today, a whole school group left this place and I think it was because the proceedings were so unruly. It is not what any school teacher would allow in a classroom. Before I run out of time, I also want to speak to another aspect of our rules, which is not to give written speeches. That is against our rules. The substantive difference would be when the House leaders are considering how much time we need for a bill. If a bill is unanimously supported in this place, we do not need to debate it forever. Whether a bill is controversial or not, if every House leader had to think about who in the ranks of their team has the capacity to stand and speak on a particular matter of policy without a set, prepared speech to read, the number of potential speakers would drop quite a bit. This place has allowed a trend where political parties control far too much of what goes on here. If a party whip knows they do not have that many people who could stand and speak to a policy, they are going to pick the people who have studied it and who care about it. That is an important rule that we ignore on a routine basis. What they do in the U.K., and which would be a change to our Standing Orders, is the Speaker recognizes someone to give a speech and they have potentially 40 minutes or more. They can pause and yield the floor to another member of their own party, and then it becomes interactive. It becomes quite interesting. The person who is holding the floor sits down and says they yield the floor to their hon. colleague. Then the person who is asking the question gets an interactive opportunity for discussion. The debates are much more interesting. I also commend that to be considered by PROC when it looks at our Standing Orders.

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Mrs. Sherry Romanado (Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, Lib.)

Jun/2/22 4:51:03 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my colleague and I often compare notes regarding the Standing Orders. One area that the member did not touch on, which we looked at when we sat on the electoral reform committee, is work-life balance. If I remember correctly, she had suggested that perhaps we would sit three weeks in a row, then maybe have three weeks back in our riding, and then three weeks in a row here. Could the member elaborate a bit on the calendar? She did not mention that in her speech and I would like to give her an opportunity to do so.

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Jun/2/22 4:51:42 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the work-life balance problem is almost insoluble because the country is so large, but I am also looking at the carbon content of our work in this place. I call it the Fort McMurray work schedule, by the way. It would be three weeks on, three weeks off, but when we are here, we would extend the number of days we are sitting. We would sit a full five-day week and half a day on Saturday, because we would make good use of the time. Then, when we are back in our ridings for three weeks, with very little adjustment, I think the local chamber of commerce, the local Rotary Club and the local service organizations would know not to plan an event when they know the member cannot come, and they would pick one of those stretches when the member is physically there. It would reduce the amount of wear and tear on each of us. It is not perfect for everyone, but I do think it would be a good solution and reduce the monetary costs of our travel to the taxpayer and the amount of carbon.

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Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)

Jun/2/22 4:52:50 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have disagreed with the member quite a bit in the last couple of days, but in her speech now I think she was on to something and I will ask her to comment a bit further. She talked about giving the member who has the floor the ability to yield the floor to a colleague. In the U.K., members can also yield the floor to a member of the opposition and in so doing obtain more time for their allotment. Would she care to comment on how that could lead to true debate in this House, not exchanges of canned speeches, but actual engagement between members, not just within a party but across parties? It is considered bad manners in the United Kingdom not to yield when a member rises.

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Jun/2/22 4:53:40 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, that is exactly how it takes place. We should be more familiar. We do not want to be, in every respect, parroting what happens in the U.K. Particularly, it is important for us to have desks. We know that, with 650 members of Parliament in the Palace of Westminster, they cannot all fit in the room all at once. However, in this instance, in debates, it is about yielding the floor to a colleague and entering into a discussion, to be able to have a more respectful and reflective exchange in a context that is built around the notion that every member in the place is not reading a speech and is well informed on the topic. These debates are very interesting and engaging and they advance the understanding of issues.

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