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Context: House Hansard - 102 - Sep/26/22

Mrs. Julie Vignola (Beauport—Limoilou, BQ)

Sep/26/22 9:16:12 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, storms like last weekend's will irrevocably change the shoreline and fishing harbours. The wharves have been displaced and are stuck on the shoreline. For years the Bloc Québécois has been calling for more investments in research on countering the effects of waves on shorelines and on shoreline remediation. Does my colleague also believe that we must put more money into protecting our shorelines from such storms and, at the same time, protect our wharves, ports and fishers?

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Mr. Rick Perkins

Sep/26/22 9:17:05 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I think there are some strong methods already. I know that, on the point where I live on the ocean, half of the homeowners have used this technology and it has worked. The other half of the homeowners, on the other side, have not used it and the shoreline is eroding. Regarding the harbours themselves, where the commercial operations take place, we need to have much more investment in those harbours. We already have probably in the neighbourhood of $3 billion to $4 billion required to bring the wharves up to standard across Canada. That does not include making the breakwalls and everything else that needs to be done in order to make them a little higher because the seas are a little higher, the storms are a little stronger and the boats are a little bigger. All of those things are contributing to the exposure of those fishing communities to the storms that we are receiving. I would agree with anything we can do to figure out erosion, but Mother Nature is Mother Nature and it is pretty hard to win a battle against the ocean with artificial means. The ocean will take things away, unfortunately, so planning where one puts one's house and how one builds those breakwalls is very important.

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Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP)

Sep/26/22 9:18:44 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, first, I also want to send my condolences to the people in Atlantic Canada, and I want to thank my colleague. I know he is very passionate about his home community, where I have family as well. We talk quite often about fisheries and the importance of fisheries. I want to focus my question around first responders and the Canadian military. We have members of the CAF who are there, on the ground. They are constantly being deployed, whether it be to the flooding in British Columbia or forest fires. There was a story today stating that the CAF is short one in 10 positions right now, out of the 100,000 positions it has. I ran into a man the other day. He was so proud of his son, who is a paramedic in the military. He said his son is going to leave the military because of the wages. It is not like the old days, when people could save enough money, buy a house and put some money aside. Housing is out of touch with the state of inflation. He wants to stay in the military, but he is thinking about leaving. Maybe my colleague could talk about the need to redesign the military to tackle the climate crisis and to ensure that we look after the people who are serving our country. Their roles are changing. Maybe he could speak about the importance of ensuring that we have not just military personnel, but equipment that can respond to climate emergencies.

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Mr. Rick Perkins

Sep/26/22 9:20:13 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I know the member for Courtenay—Alberni is passionate about the fishery as well, having served for many years very effectively on the fisheries committee, and he has relatives in Atlantic Canada. That is a great thing about Atlantic Canadians; we are everywhere. We are in Alberta. We are everywhere. We have connections across the country where we have gone to find work. In terms of the role of the military, we are lucky that we have the military we have to respond to these kinds of crises and to help out. However, the primary reason people join the military, and my nephew is in the navy, is to go on deployment and not just be here in terms of supporting disaster relief. They primarily want to go out and defend democracy and freedom around the world where dictatorships and other people are trampling on human rights, as we are seeing now with Russia in Ukraine, and they are proud of that. What frustrates them is that we do not make the investments in the military to provide them the equipment. It is a bit of a “chicken and egg”. Why would someone join the air force in Canada to fly fighter jets when we cannot seem to make decisions to actually buy any, and the ones we are flying now were purchased by Pierre Trudeau when some members of this House were not even alive? The focus on investment in the operational needs internationally is the primary role for which somebody joins the military. If we are operationally ready and we have the resources here to help out in disasters, then that is an added bonus. Right now most people would be attracted to go into the military if we were properly equipping it.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Sep/26/22 9:22:09 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am really grateful to the Conservative Party that the hon. member for South Shore—St. Margarets got a whole 20 minutes, because that means the time for questions and answers lasts for 10 minutes. The hon. member is a friend and we have been texting each other all day because I am both a British Columbia MP and a Cape Bretoner. I remember hurricanes that we used to have in Atlantic Canada, and the hon. member and I have been back and forth on the question of this storm being supercharged by climate change. I will never forget hurricane Juan in 2003, because my mom had died in late August of that year. The hurricane was so soon thereafter, I always relate them in my head. I was in Cape Breton. The storm was off the charts, which I do not need to tell my colleague or anyone in this place. Because I am a climate activist, I went digging in to see what happened with Juan. It was the first time we had had a full-fledged tropical hurricane-force, full-force category 2 hit our shores. We have had hurricanes, just as the hon. member has said, but they tend to have weakened. With hurricane Juan, the forecasters, as I recall, thought the hurricane would lose force because it would come over the cold water south of Nova Scotia and slow down. We would have a bad storm for sure, with high winds and lots of rain, but hurricane Juan was different, as was Dorian and now, boy, Fiona. Fiona hit Canada with the lowest barometric pressure of any storm ever. One thing I want to say to my hon. friend is a cautionary tale from a British Columbian: It has been more than a year since the fires and the heat domes and the floods of last year. People in B.C. are still waiting for help, so we will hear good words now but we are going to have to stay on it. Therefore, I want to give the member my word that I will do anything I can for all of our colleagues and friends and cousins and my brother and sister-in-law who are in Cape Breton. We have to get help to everybody, as we do to his friend, the member of Parliament for Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon. The people from Lytton are still waiting. How do we seize this moment of commonality to actually sit down and dissect the science that says this is just going to get worse and worse until we turn off the tap on fossil fuels?

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Mr. Rick Perkins

Sep/26/22 9:24:35 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands and I have known each other for a long time. We have great discussions and I appreciate her intervention. Hurricanes have happened with different intensity. In 1975, hurricane Blanche landed in Nova Scotia, and hurricane Hortense, in 1996, came directly into Nova Scotia. There are others that came in before that. They follow the gulf stream and the gulf stream comes in and out, so it has that impact. I would love to carry on the conversation on it with the member later, since I am out of time.

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Mr. Mike Kelloway (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.)

Sep/26/22 9:25:30 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Sydney—Victoria. I rise this evening to share with the House and all Canadians the brutal and devastating impacts of hurricane Fiona. For many and, in particular, my own constituents in Cape Breton—Canso, my neighbours, family and friends, this represents an unprecedented moment in the lives of all the residents in my riding. It clearly is one of the largest weather events to happen in our community, and certainly one of the most destructive. Homes, schools and entire communities, which, just last week, were thriving, are now, many of them, unrecognizable, with fallen trees, downed wires and debris across our communities. It really is an unimaginable reality, which I have seen with my own eyes as I look around my riding during the aftermath of this storm. I want to share a story of Glace Bay, my hometown, where I was born and raised. There is an area called No. 2, and it is called No. 2 because it was named after colliery No. 2, the mine colliery. There are great people in that area, and the Hub of Glace Bay. There are so many roofs that are off company homes in those areas. In fact, one roof came off a home and was found three streets over, in an individual's backyard. The force and the devastation of the storm cannot be overstated. Nevertheless, there remains one thing, as I want to tell my colleagues and Canadians watching, that is untouched by the storm, and that is the resiliency of people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia. For every instance of destruction that I saw, there has been an instance of unity. Neighbours are helping neighbours. We have heard that today. Family members are helping family members, and even strangers, with gestures that are small and quite large, from offering others a safe place to sleep to leaving their own supplies on the porches for people just to take. These are examples of the goodwill that is on full display on the east coast. I would like to share some of the generosity I have seen over the past few days, like that of Margaret Kuchma. I met Margaret last summer and she quickly became an extension of what I like to call “team Kelloway”. Margaret thinks about our community all the time, before herself, in fact. In particular, she takes care of everyone in the community called No. 11, another example of a community named after a colliery, colliery No. 11. That is a neighbourhood in Glace Bay. On Sunday, following the storm, Margaret ran her generator, fed dozens of people out of her home, and shared her power with those who needed to charge their device or their laptop, or just needed a hot cup of coffee. Like Margaret, in the aftermath of the hurricane, the administrators and the officer cadets at the Canadian Coast Guard College in Westmount, Nova Scotia, opened their doors to the community. I was there today. Cadets were helping people who had been taken out of their homes, providing lodging, providing support and providing food. What great leadership. What great servant leadership. They are an example. The staff and the officer cadets were there for the community. I want to highlight that they were there for 40 families that were displaced and are now staying at the campus until they return home. They are providing folks a hot cup of coffee, a shower, or the ability just to collect their thoughts and to think about the devastation but, more or less, to be with people, even strangers, just to commiserate on how lucky they have been during the storm, even with the challenges before them. I know that most people know this, but I am proud to be a resident of Cape Breton, northeastern Nova Scotia. This is a community that has proven itself to be self-sustaining and brave of heart, even when times are tough. I have said it before and I will say it again. My dad was in charge of mine rescue. He was a trainer and a mentor to those who went underground to save individuals' lives. My dad was a man of few words, but he would always say to me, “Crisis reveals character.” Over the past two days in my travels throughout the riding, my heart really has been filled by the kindness and generosity of folks in the communities that I serve. Despite our resiliency, we have been able to do only so much to get ourselves through the last 48 hours. Lucky for us we have not had to go that far to see leadership. I want to take a moment to thank the countless first responders who came to the aid of my constituents. It has been said here tonight but it bears repeating that our local police, fire departments, emergency medical services and their dispatchers have worked tremendously hard to answer all the calls of those in need. There is no doubt in my mind that many are safe today because of them. Bear in mind that in Cape Breton—Canso there has not been, up until I speak here tonight, any major injuries or loss of life. It is because of those people. It is because of the work of the provincial government and the federal government working together with municipalities, first nations communities and towns to prepare us for the devastation that came toward us. I want to go back to the Coast Guard for a moment. Our Coast Guard has responded to reports of sunken and grounded vessels. It remains ready to confront any pollutant or other hazard to marine life. I want also to highlight our Canadian Armed Forces. They have been on the ground here in Cape Breton. They were in the air and at sea in order to provide everything in terms of human resources, equipment and military assets. I would like to thank the CAF members of the 5th Canadian Division specifically, who have been quite literally at our side as we cope with the damage to our communities. Our municipal and provincial officials and authorities have also played an integral role in the response, which has thus proven to be successful. I know there is a long way to go, but slowly and steadily we are seeing services being restored to communities that have been without power since the storm hit. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank my federal colleagues for their outstanding leadership during this time of need. In particular, I thank the Minister of Emergency Preparedness and the Minister of National Defence for their time and effort, which I know has benefited our communities to a great extent. I would also like to thank members of the opposition who reached out to me to check in and see how my citizens were. I thank them for that. It says a lot about their character and who they are as people. I would like to remind Canadians and colleagues in this House that climate change exists. There was a gentleman in one of the warming stations who said, “I believed in climate change before, but it is pretty much cemented now that I believe it even more.” Finally, I would like to thank my constituents for their bravery and their endurance. The people of Cape Breton—Canso have risen to the occasion in the face of yet another challenge. Whether it be in the capacity of a community leader, a health care professional, a technician or a store clerk, they have all played a pivotal role in helping one another. That is going to continue. The success amid this incident, this storm, this really catastrophic event, and the responses at all levels of government would not be what they are today without the kindness, compassion and hard work coming from within the areas that are hardest hit. To the incredible people at home who I am privileged to serve in this chamber, and I am privileged to serve them, I express my profound gratitude. Mr. Speaker, I think you will know this. Back home, there is a familiar tune and the lyrics contain the words “we rise again”. In this moment, those words represent the ethos of my constituency and all Atlantic Canadians. It is the people who weathered the storm. In light of all that has taken place, I say this with gratitude and absolute confidence to the people of Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia, as the song goes, we will rise again.

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The Deputy Speaker

Sep/26/22 9:35:01 p.m.
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I thank the member, my friend from Cape Breton—Canso, for not singing the song, even though the song is wonderful and the sentiment is wonderful as well. Questions and comments, the hon. member for South Shore—St. Margarets.

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Mr. Rick Perkins (South Shore—St. Margarets, CPC)

Sep/26/22 9:35:16 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, my fellow Nova Scotian, is in a riding that is one of the hardest-hit places in our province. It is devastating. He represents some very important fishing communities around Cape Breton. Obviously, all Nova Scotians are concerned with what is going on in the northern part of our province and Cape Breton in particular. I want to take this opportunity, because he is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, to see if he would speak on behalf of the government and make the commitment here that the government will quickly speed up the repairs of wharf infrastructure without bureaucracy, without the application processes we normally have. Will the government get the work done quickly so that our fishermen and people who depend on the fishery can get to work when the seasons open?

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Mr. Mike Kelloway

Sep/26/22 9:36:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to serve on the fisheries committee with the member opposite. I will say that we have made some substantial investments in small craft harbours, because they are the economic hubs of Atlantic Canada. In terms of damage to and repair of small craft harbours, it is up to us to collectively work together. It is up to this government to make investments where they are necessary in small craft harbours, to buttress them and to strengthen them. We have done that since 2015 with investments in small craft harbours, with an additional $300 million next year, but make no mistake about it: there will be a changing environment. Environmental crises require us to do a deeper dive to ensure that we strengthen those resources that provide so much to Atlantic Canadians, and dare I say, to all Canadians.

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Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP)

Sep/26/22 9:37:20 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, people on the east coast are suffering, and I was glad to hear comments from all members in this House committing to supporting Atlantic Canadians in the coming weeks. I also want us to start thinking about the future. These extreme weather events are happening more frequently and with more severity. I am concerned that the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund right now is completely inadequate. It does not come close to meeting the needs of communities and municipalities that need to fix critical infrastructure and build resilience in the face of climate disaster. Will the member commit to pushing his government to ensure that this fund is adequate to meet the needs of this changing climate?

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Mr. Mike Kelloway

Sep/26/22 9:38:18 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the fund the member speaks of helps a tremendous number of groups, communities and municipalities, but what we need to do is act collectively. This is another important moment in time where we look at the fact that this is not just a once-in-a-blue-moon storm. These storms are happening on the east coast on a regular basis. Maybe it was not as strong as Fiona, but five years ago we had a very catastrophic flooding event in Cape Breton that was supposed to occur once in a century. They are repeating more and more. This government is committed to ensuring that we react and, more importantly, respond in the right way. There is that fund and other funds, such as the oceans protection plan, which has about $9 million invested in it. There are opportunities to work within departments and work with levels of government to ensure we put the right investments in place, but I could not agree more that we need to continuously up our game when it comes to protecting communities, economic development, social development and the environment.

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Mrs. Sherry Romanado (Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, Lib.)

Sep/26/22 9:39:39 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, as this is the first time on my feet since hurricane Fiona made landfall 72 hours ago, I want to make sure that all members in the communities that were affected know that our hearts are with them. I want to say to Quebeckers affected by the hurricane that we are there for them. I have a son posted in Gagetown, and my older son actually deployed as part of Operation Lentus back in 2019 in response to the flooding. Our colleague from Cape Breton—Canso talked about Canadian Armed Forces members who were on the ground immediately to help with removing debris and assisting with connectivity issues for electricity and so on. Could the member elaborate a bit on what he is forecasting with respect to medium-term needs? What does he anticipate might be needed on the ground in supporting the Canadian Armed Forces?

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Mr. Mike Kelloway

Sep/26/22 9:40:41 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, quite frankly, it is around helping to restore power and with respect to that, as well as clearing trees, lights and other debris from homes and businesses. We are looking forward to CAF members' presence here, and as the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence have said, they will be here until the job gets done.

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Mr. Jaime Battiste (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.)

Sep/26/22 9:41:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, in times of crisis, Cape Bretoners come together. They unite for a common purpose, healing their neighbours, helping their neighbours. With that in mind, I have to start off by thanking the member for Cape Breton—Canso for sharing his technology and his screen name with me tonight so that I might give this speech. I extend my sincere gratitude to him for accommodating me. As of the beginning of this debate, there was no power in Eskasoni, and so I have come to Sydney River in the hospitable territory of Cape Breton—Canso to deliver my speech. Cape Breton was hit hard by hurricane Fiona. We experienced a night of howling winds, the cracking sound of trees breaking, torrential rain and unprecedented devastation. Most of our communities remain without power, running water and many are without heat. Roofs have been swept off buildings. Downed trees and power poles criss-cross streets. In the Cape Breton Regional Municipality, giant trees were uprooted, toppling fences and homes and crushing cars. In coastal communities like Neil's Harbour, the sea swept straight into some homes leaving a foot or more of sea foam coating every surface. Internet service remains spotty, if available at all. There are long lines at every gas station with those hoping to keep generators running to keep their homes warm and their food from spoiling. Truly, this is the most devastating storm to hit our island, yet in the aftermath, I have seen some of the best of our communities as people have come together to support one another and rebuild. I have spoken to people across the island who, despite long days, are doing everything they can to help their fellow Cape Bretoners. They are people like Lieutenant Jenelle Durdle at the Salvation Army, who is providing hot meals and warm clothes for those now in need. I have spoken to members of our armed forces at the Victoria Park barracks who are helping in the recovery efforts, including the search for housing for those who have lost the roof over their heads and are now in need of shelter, like the residents of an apartment building on Rotary Drive in Sydney, which had 64 units, who are now without a place for their families. I spoke with Raj at one of those apartments who pleaded for our support. He is an international student who is now left without a place to stay for weeks, potentially months. Raj and many other evacuees are now being kept warm at the Membertou First Nation convention centre where Chief Terry Paul has admirably stepped up to help his neighbours during their time of need. I have been honoured to see the Mi’kmaq communities in Cape Breton helping each other and they are now reaching out to help all those who they are privileged enough to help. I spoke to more than 150 staff, students, cadets and volunteers at the Coast Guard College in Westmount who have transformed their institution into a welcome centre for displaced residents. This morning, along with the executive director, Dena Richardson, I spoke to them and thanked them for their bravery and courageous efforts. Despite the building itself having major damage, 40 beds are now being made available for those most in need. Everywhere I look in the riding, there is devastation. Osborne Burke, who runs Victoria Co-operative Fisheries, a major employer in the region, has seen catastrophic damage and will require federal support in the months ahead in order to be ready for the fishing season that his community very much relies on. Cape Breton Regional Municipality Mayor Amanda McDougall and I have been in constant communication. She reiterated the need for infrastructure support for housing, sidewalks, seniors complexes and the major cleanup that is needed. I have reassured her that help is on the way, and that the federal government has the backs of Canadians through floods, pandemics and hurricanes. Our government has been and continues to show that we will be there for Canadians. The Minister of Emergency Preparedness, whom I cannot thank enough, has already approved a request from the Government of Nova Scotia for immediate support to the province as it deals with the impact from hurricane Fiona. As part of this response, the Canadian Coast Guard is providing deployable incident management teams. Transport Canada's national aerial surveillance program is providing aerial imagery and recon capability. Last year, we had a historic flood that washed away entire roads on the Cabot Trail. People said it was a once-in-a-lifetime storm. Less than a year later, we have witnessed worse. It is clear that coastal communities are now vulnerable to the impacts of the climate crisis. Ponds that I once played hockey on as a child no longer freeze. Yearly storms batter the Maritimes like we used to only see in places like Florida and New Orleans. We are seeing the lowest barometric pressure we have recorded in Canadian history. The climate crisis is here. Weather events are becoming more unpredictable and more prone to extreme conditions. We like to think the effects of climate change are a far-flung forecast, but we are feeling those effects now, and we are already seeing the cost of generations of inaction. I know Cape Bretoners are worried about their children's future. They ask themselves, “What will the storms be like for them? What can we do now to slow and reverse these weather events?” We wonder what sacrifices we need to make now to ensure a better quality of life for the next generation. The time for the debate on the climate crisis and our need to do more is over in the eyes of Cape Bretoners. We need help today, and we also need to get past the populist bickering about putting more money in polluters' pockets at the cost of our children's future. A Cree proverb teaches us that only when the last fish has been caught, the last river has been poisoned and the last tree has been cut will we realize that money cannot be eaten. Indigenous knowledge teaches us to plan for the next seven generations. Responsible governments know that this is not easy, but we must take those important strides. We need to do everything in our power to transition to a green economy and lessen the severity of the growing crisis, and we must invest in resiliency and climate-proof green infrastructure. We need to ensure the price on pollution is enough to cover the cost of disaster mitigation that is needed now and even more so into the future. If there are those among us who refuse to listen to the scientists, perhaps they may listen to the Supreme Court of Canada. In March 2021, Chief Justice Richard Wagner ruled as follows: Climate change is real. It is caused by greenhouse gas emissions resulting from human activities, and it poses a grave threat to humanity's future. Today we are fortunate in Cape Breton to be talking only about damage, and not deaths. I want to send my condolences to those regions that have experienced deaths. However, I am convinced we could do more and go faster. Now more than ever, it is upon us, as parliamentarians, to become the environmental leaders on the world stage. Given the gravity of the situation, let our hearts and minds and the consideration of our children and grandchildren lead our decision-making. I give these thoughts with the humble hopes that we will not succumb to selfish, short-term thinking at the cost of our future generations. As hard as it is, let us think together about the next seven generations of Canadians. Wela'lioq.

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Mr. Stephen Ellis (Cumberland—Colchester, CPC)

Sep/26/22 9:49:21 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House, one of the biggest concerns we have is that we not fall into the trap of saying, as the great Ronald Reagan once said, “I'm from the government and I'm here to help.” How will that side of the House assure Atlantic Canadians that the help the government is promising will end up in the hands of Atlantic Canadians in a rapid, transparent manner, so that the process is simple and we are not tied up in bureaucratic red tape for the next four years?

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Mr. Jaime Battiste

Sep/26/22 9:49:58 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, what we need to do is move fast. However, to blame this disaster on bureaucrats or gatekeepers or whatever terminology the member wants to use is not seeing the actual problem in front of us. The actual problem is climate change. These disasters will happen, and they will continue to happen. We have seen it up north. We have seen it in the west. We have seen it in the east. To try to blame it on the bureaucracy is ingenuine to the actual problem that we must face. I would ask the member if he believes climate change is real, like the Supreme Court of Canada has said. Are the member and his party willing to act so that Nova Scotians will not have to deal with this in the future?

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Mr. Richard Cannings (South Okanagan—West Kootenay, NDP)

Sep/26/22 9:50:45 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his speech tonight and for his on-the-ground reporting as to what is really going on on Cape Breton Island. He made the point that the reason behind this and other disasters we have been facing is climate change. I am wondering, given the member's role in this, if he would like to comment on the role that indigenous people across Canada should and could be taking in leading the fight against climate change, the fight we all have to be engaged in.

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Mr. Jaime Battiste

Sep/26/22 9:51:28 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, that is an important question. In the Mi’kmaq culture and in the Mi’kmaq language we have a term called netukulimk. It reminds us that we have a responsibility to each other, we have a responsibility to our communities and we have a responsibility to our nation. We also have a responsibility to our ecosystem, one that we too often forget at the cost of profits and at the cost of money in our pocket. We have lost that connection to our ecosystem and that responsibility to our ecosystem. We need to relearn that. We need to teach our children. As parliamentarians we need to work together to find answers we can all agree on that say that we realize this is an existential threat, and as a minority government we are willing to take the steps needed to safeguard our children's future.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Sep/26/22 9:52:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would say to my hon. friend from Sydney—Victoria a huge wela'lin. I do not know that I have ever been more proud to stand here as someone who still considers herself a Cape Bretoner as well as a British Columbian. I think the words of the hon. member for Sydney—Victoria have been the most profound of this whole evening's debate. I would like to ask if he would agree with me that our chances of giving our children a livable world are hanging in the balance in the very near term and that we need to listen to science, but we need to be guided by indigenous leadership and wisdom.

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