SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 114 - Oct/20/22

Oct/20/22 6:51:33 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I appreciate the question, and absolutely, but we are not the experts here in the House. We have to work with those who are on the front lines. We have to work with those who have lived experience. We have to work with the national organizations and the true medical experts to really develop something that is tangible and can impact and help Canadians. I know that far too many Canadians are falling through the cracks; far too many Canadians are struggling with opioid addiction, and what we are doing just is not enough. Applying a band-aid does not help it, so it has to be diversified, because what works for some may not work for others. No two cases are the same.

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Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)

Oct/20/22 6:52:29 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I want to thank and congratulate my colleague for his very moving speech. I think that everyone in the House felt my colleague's emotion and commitment, which we certainly share. I thank him. We have been talking about the opioid crisis and what needs to be done. The member told us that we need a host of measures that depend in particular on the context and the place. I would like him to talk about specific cases. What can be done to better combat the opioid crisis and its deadly consequences?

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Mr. Todd Doherty

Oct/20/22 6:53:12 p.m.
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Madam Chair, that is a great question and, in truth, I do not have the answer, but I can speak from my experience with my family. I talked with my brother last summer, after he had been shot twice with a shotgun, and he said all the right things. He said that he was going to get clean. This is someone I have taken off the street so many times over the last 20 years. I have no idea why he is here. When I sit with other family members who have lost loved ones to overdoses, they do not have the answers either; they just know something needs to be done. This is why we need to talk about it more openly. This is why we need to share the experiences and engage the professionals to develop a real plan. An app does not do it, and in all honesty, a phone line does not do it, but they are steps and tools in a tool box that can make a difference. We have to stop the drugs from coming into our country. We have to arm the frontline officers who are tasked with protecting us with the tools to stop those drugs and send those who are importing these drugs to jail. Let us stop that revolving-door policy and make sure we are putting the tools and resources with the frontline officers, the frontline personnel and the frontline organizations that are actually in the fight each and every day. That truly will make a difference.

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Ms. Lisa Marie Barron (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, NDP)

Oct/20/22 6:54:51 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thank the member for all his work and everything he has shared this evening. It is so inspiring to me, as someone who was newly elected a year ago, to see another member of Parliament speak from the heart. It really instills a lot of hope for me in the future of our work. I also want to thank the member for his work around PTSD and the three-digit hotline. I worked in mental health and addictions prior to coming into work as a member of Parliament, and I saw how underfunded it was. I wonder if the member could share if he feels that stigma may play a part in the lack of follow-through that we are currently seeing on the mental health transfers to provinces and territories.

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Mr. Todd Doherty

Oct/20/22 6:55:39 p.m.
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That is a great question, Madam Chair. We know that just on suicide prevention alone, 11 Canadians each and every day die by suicide. We know a further 275 Canadians attempt suicide. The reality is we know that those statistics are probably even greater because of the stigma associated with suicide. The same goes with overdose and drug abuse. There is such a stigma attached to suicide, mental illness, mental health and drug addiction that many families do not come forward. They are ashamed to bring it forward. They are afraid to speak about it. We live in a world where time is money and money is everything. Nobody has the time to really look at their neighbour and ask them them how they are doing. We do not want to get involved. We are afraid of what the answer is going to be. We have to do more. We have to care more. I shared my story today, not to bring sympathy on me or my brother. I share it because my hope is that we break that stigma and that we show families who are dealing with the same issues, or even members of Parliament who are here tonight that it is okay not to be okay, and it is okay to bring these stories forward and show Canadians who do not have the same platform that we can share that, so they can see there is hope. Right now there are so many Canadians who are struggling and families who have no place to turn. They are afraid to come forward. If they see us talking about this, maybe they will come forward and maybe they will seek help as well.

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Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Mental Health and Addictions and Associate Minister of Health, Lib.)

Oct/20/22 6:57:35 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I really just want to thank the member for Cariboo—Prince George for what he has said tonight. It really does help us all try to reduce the stigma. It makes it easier for others to have the courage to share what they have suffered and to understand the role of trauma and how people like you have turned it into being an absolute passionate crusader for others. Your brother has not been so lucky. Therefore, it is just a gratitude that I want to express on behalf of all Canadians.

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The Assistant Deputy Chair

Oct/20/22 6:58:26 p.m.
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The hon. minister knows that she has to speak through the Chair, but I share the sentiments. The hon. member for Cariboo—Prince George.

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Mr. Todd Doherty

Oct/20/22 6:58:36 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I appreciate that from the minister. I am 54 years of age. I had my birthday just the other week. I am ashamed to say that this is the first time I have spoken publicly about this. For many years, I did not even tell my wife and my kids about this. I just knew that each and every day I wanted to live, not to perpetuate the dysfunction. I did not want to talk about it. As I said at the start of my speech, we did not talk about this stuff. I am tired of hiding it. I phoned my brother Trent just before this and said, “This is our story. I hope you're okay with my sharing this.” It was 2020, so I was 52, and my brother Trent is seven years younger than me. We never talked about this, but there was something that was a catalyst to this and members will have to wait for the book to come out to read what the catalyst was. We sat in a White Spot in British Columbia, and we both started shaking and we both started crying. I was 52. He was around 47. I have a stepbrother by the name of Elvis. He messaged me last week. He is 54, the same age as me. He shared something with me. We have never talked about this. I thought I was the only one. He messaged me and he said it has been eating him up all these years and he has never talked about it. That is what we need to break. Even as brothers, we never talked about this stuff. As families, we never talked about this. We are afraid to talk about it. The first step in doing anything is being open and honest, and it is dialogue. That is the only way we are going to right the ship and do well for Canadians: being open and honest and having that open and honest conversation. We do not need the partisan politics. We all agree that the ship is broken right now and we need to do whatever we can to help put it back afloat.

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Mr. Luc Thériault (Montcalm, BQ)

Oct/20/22 7:00:49 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would like to begin with an aside because I was deeply touched by what my colleague said. If anyone in the House is keenly aware of mental health and illness issues, it is me. My colleague talked about stigmatization. Michel Foucault's monumental work, A History of Insanity in the Age of Reason, made it clear that mental illness had to earn its legitimacy. In other words, mental illness had to be construed as a medical condition. Nowadays, we say “mental health” because we want to avoid the term “mental illness”, but mental illness is an illness like any other. Unfortunately, people with mental illness were locked up, excluded, exploited, put in circuses, put in cages of put on the Ship of Fools. They were dispersed all over the place, set adrift. Foucault's account of the history of madness and how those afflicted were treated paints a dismal picture of human beings. I rise today to point out that it is not our concerns about mental health and mental illness that divide us. It seems to me that, if we really look at this properly, we would see that this is not the right legislature for taking effective action in this area. As I said earlier in the preamble to my question, I sometimes get the impression from the minister that we have to reinvent the wheel. Of course, this matter is of particular concern right now, especially because of the postpandemic situation. Mental health has always been the poor cousin of physical health, and there are challenges to be met. Moreover, mental health is one of the weak links in our health care systems, and this became abundantly clear as the pandemic crisis played out. However, none of this justifies the federal government's interfering in something that is none of its concern. I want the well-being of anyone struggling with illness or mental health problems to be a priority. No one wants that more than I do. Ottawa has to be careful, however, because it is not doing any good or making things better when it meddles in action plans that are already in place. I do not know if the minister is familiar with the 2022-26 interdepartmental mental health plan that was recently adopted by Quebec. At one point, I had a glimmer of hope. She talked about bilateral child care agreements. I thought that perhaps the minister would be willing to look at what Quebec is doing. Then she would see that the problem in Quebec is not the policies, the goals or the organizational structures, but the money. It is the financial resources that are lacking. There is a lack of resources to hire competent employees and to support certain frontline workers who care for people. I am thinking about employees in community organizations, to name just one sector. I will return to this later. That was just an aside, and I will now go back to my speech. That said, there are issues there, and I sometimes get the impression that my colleagues are in the wrong legislature. The responsibilities were divided in 1867. It is clear that the federal government currently takes in much more money for its responsibilities than it offers in services. It seems to want to give in to a temptation that has been denounced by every premier who has served the people of Quebec, who form a nation. That is why we often refer to Quebec's strategies as national strategies. It is not to insult Canada, which is officially recognized as a country. It is just that Quebec is a nation by virtue of its National Assembly, which put strategies in place. Do members know when the first national mental health strategy was implemented? It was in 1980, and it was the first national strategy in the world. The people of the Quebec nation, through their National Assembly, have been trying to meet mental health needs since 1980. Over time, Quebec has developed its expertise and various national strategies and action plans with the help of many stakeholders, but what it is currently missing is financial resources. When we talk about the interdepartmental plan, that includes a large number of departments. With regard to the consultation that took place in the development of the most recent plan, or the new strategy, we spoke to community groups, researchers, stakeholders, and all segments of the population, including youth, adults, seniors, minority groups and indigenous peoples. We developed that plan in conjunction with many departments and many members of Quebec's interdepartmental working group on homelessness and mental health, including the director of criminal and penal prosecutions, which is important when it comes to Bill C‑5. When we say that we are not going to penalize or incarcerate people because they have addictions, then we need to make sure that part of our informed and comprehensive strategy on mental health involves making sure those individuals do not go to prison, because we know that addictions are often related to mental health. We need to help these people. Other contributors included the ministry of education, the ministry of advanced education, the ministry of immigration, francization and integration, the ministry of culture and communications; the ministry of families, the ministry of justice, the ministry of public safety, the ministry of agriculture, fisheries and food, the ministry of municipal affairs and housing, the ministry of finance, the ministry of transport, the youth secretariat, the indigenous affairs secretariat, the ministry of labour, employment and social solidarity, the Office des personnes handicapées du Québec, the Régie de l'assurance maladie du Québec, the status of women secretariat, Quebec's treasury board secretariat and the Société d'habitation du Québec. In Quebec, for the people of Quebec, for our nation, which speaks through its National Assembly, there are at least 10 departments involved in this action plan. We see mental health as an interdisciplinary challenge. Now along comes this government, no doubt well intentioned, with a mandate letter for a minister who wants to help the Quebec nation, the people of Quebec and all the stakeholders I talked about implement this action plan. I hope we will not have to wait long for the money to come through. We have been waiting for health transfers for too long. In my opinion, if the federal government had invested its fair share in health care over the past 30 years, then all of Quebec's existing action plans would probably have strengthened the weak link that was exposed during the pandemic. That is the issue. Our mental health initiatives have to complement one another. That is why I am asking the minister to work in concert with Quebec rather than exploit mental health just to exert her spending power—

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The Assistant Deputy Chair

Oct/20/22 7:11:04 p.m.
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Questions and comments. The hon. member for Joliette.

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Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)

Oct/20/22 7:11:16 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would like to congratulate my colleague for his very interesting speech. We obviously have the same values. I would like to remind him that the French author Michel Folco wrote a novel about a sad character in a book called Même le mal se fait bien, or even bad things can turn out well. A question comes to my mind when I hear my colleague's comments and when I look at everything that is being done in Ottawa. It could apply to passports or to any issue. Ottawa wants to meddle in health care without adequately funding the provinces and without respecting constitutional jurisdictions. Does my colleague agree with me that, in Ottawa, even good intentions can turn out badly?

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Mr. Luc Thériault

Oct/20/22 7:12:07 p.m.
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Madam Chair, my colleague from Joliette has a great sense of humour. As I said at the outset, just because someone wants to do good does not mean they are doing good, especially if they are infringing on someone else's autonomy. Usually, this applies to an individual, but it can also apply to a national government that has already thought things through and developed action plans to improve its performance and its mental health care in collaboration with community groups. I want to acknowledge community groups since this is autonomous community action week. These groups are underfunded, but they are propping up the front lines. If we want to reinvigorate these essential mental health resources, then we need to offer these people decent wages and not let them burn out because of the pandemic, which exacerbated mental health needs. I commend the people working on the front lines in community action, because fixing this issue will certainly take concrete action at every level. In my opinion, these people are keeping the system going.

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Mr. Todd Doherty (Cariboo—Prince George, CPC)

Oct/20/22 7:13:42 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I wonder if our hon. colleague could tell us exactly what Quebec's provincial mental health plan is.

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Mr. Luc Thériault

Oct/20/22 7:13:54 p.m.
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Madam Chair, at least 10 departments helped develop this plan, which was divided into seven pillars. In fact, the Government of Quebec is investing $1 billion in this plan. The first pillar is promoting mental health and preventing mental illness. The second pillar is prevention and crisis intervention services. The third is partnerships with community organizations. The fourth pillar focuses on actions aimed at young people, their families, their loved ones and their inner circle. The fifth pillar is improving access to mental health care and services. The sixth pillar is prevention and alternatives to hospitalization in psychiatric care, and the seventh is consultation and improving practices. I think the federal government could contribute to research.

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Mrs. Élisabeth Brière (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions and Associate Minister of Health, Lib.)

Oct/20/22 7:14:54 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thank my colleague for his speech. I am working with mental health organizations in Quebec and I, too, am willing to acknowledge Quebec's leadership in this area. That is why it was recognized in the federal-provincial bilateral agreement and the action plan my colleague was talking about. A total of $11 million was announced in the 2017-18 economic and fiscal update, and that amount was increased to $20 million in 2018-19 for the subsequent years in order to support the implementation of this action plan. I would like to know whether my colleague agrees that discussions between the provinces and the federal government are important in order to properly address the crisis and mental health needs.

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Mr. Luc Thériault

Oct/20/22 7:15:59 p.m.
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Madam Chair, obviously that is important, but the money needs to be there. I am not saying that we do not need to talk about or collaborate on mental health. On the contrary, I am saying that we need to do so within the limits of our responsibilities and jurisdictions. We need to take a complementary approach. Quebec already has national standards, by the way, because it is a nation. We do not need more layers of bureaucracy. What we need is money at the ground level to take care of people.

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Ms. Rachel Blaney (North Island—Powell River, NDP)

Oct/20/22 7:16:52 p.m.
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Madam Chair, as we are talking about this issue, it is very important that we focus on the fact that stigma is blocking so many people from getting the necessary help they need. Anyone who has done any work on trauma and the impacts it has not only on a person's emotions but also on a person's body would know that those two things must be integrated, and not see what is happening within somebody's mental state as separate from their physical state as they are together and the same. Can the member talk about ways that all of us in this place can start to fight stigma in a meaningful way collaboratively so that we can see that change across this whole country?

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Mr. Luc Thériault

Oct/20/22 7:17:38 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I agree with the idea that we must take a holistic approach to mental health. In some cases, it is the chicken or the egg conundrum. Someone's mental health will deteriorate because of a physical problem and vice versa. We must therefore look at the person as a whole. I do think that both legislatures must take a complementary approach. In order to give more help to people, to strengthen and reinforce the weak links in the health care systems from coast to coast to coast, including in Quebec, the federal government must give us the necessary financial resources and ensure that we have substantial, and above all recurring, health transfers. Even the Canadian Mental Health Association says that the problem is that the government makes one-time investments. It takes stability and predictability to rebuild the system and make action plans that will actually be effective in helping our people.

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Mr. Todd Doherty

Oct/20/22 7:19:14 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I apologize to my friend, but perhaps he could state this one more time. I just want to know again the amount of money that Quebec has committed to its mental health plan, as well as the seven pillars. I am not quite sure I heard that there was anything in them for addictions or recovery. I wonder if Quebec is seeing the same things that the province of British Columbia is seeing in terms of the opioid crisis that is spiralling out of control. Perhaps our colleague could take the next minute and a half to speak to that.

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Mr. Luc Thériault

Oct/20/22 7:19:52 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I do not know whether my colleague remembers what I said about my NDP colleague's bill, but the Bloc Québécois is very much in favour of approaches designed to divert those cases. The purpose of diversion is not solely to free up space in courts and jails, though. Diversion will only work with adequate funding and the concerted action required to ensure that these people do not wind up out in the streets with their problems. Decriminalizing drug dependency is not enough to clear anyone's conscience. That is not what this is about. That is why Bill C‑5 is a step in the right direction. I do not know if the Conservatives voted in favour of Bill C‑5, but it seems like a step in the right direction to me. With that and the necessary resources, we will make progress in dealing with this issue, but there has to be money for this. To me, the leader in best practices for drug dependency is Portugal.

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