SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 118 - Oct/26/22

Oct/26/22 4:58:00 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her passion and her principle. It is a principle I agree with. There comes a time when there is not the level of co-operation needed in the House on a variety of different bills, and in order to better serve Canadians we need to set limits on debate. When debate becomes just repeating the same thing over and over again on a variety of different bills, when the opposition is opposing simply to oppose rather than to be constructive, then we are here, using time allocation as a mechanism. I do not like it either. On the other hand, I see the need to get this bill done. The chief justice has come out publicly, as have other chief justices. We saw the time and costs that were involved in the case the hon. member referred to. The bill is something that all or most of us will agree on and that we ought to pass quickly. I implore our colleagues to do just that.

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Mr. Frank Caputo (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, CPC)

Oct/26/22 4:59:11 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to rise on behalf of the people of Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo. I want to pick up on what my colleague from Fundy Royal asked the hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. He was talking about the decision with respect to parole ineligibility and whether that should be consecutive or concurrent at 25 years. The Minister of Justice, from what I could surmise, was essentially saying that the government is not going to be introducing legislation to respond to that court decision. That is disappointing. Would the Minister of Justice then support legislation to perhaps extend the time between parole hearings? This is something people like Ms. Bosma have talked about as victimizing or revictimizing them in the process. Will the Minister of Justice support extending the period between parole hearings from two years for those serving life in prison to, perhaps, five years?

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:00:18 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his work on the justice committee and on justice issues generally. I recognize the sincere place from which this question comes. I have always said publicly that I am never closed to a good idea. That being said, the margin for manoeuvre in a nine to nothing Supreme Court of Canada decision, which is very clear, is pretty minimal. There are a lot of needles that would have to be threaded in order for that kind of proposition to be possible.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Oct/26/22 5:01:01 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I want to reflect on the issue of the need for time allocation. Earlier today, for example, I tried to get unanimous consent to have an additional 30 minutes. We have seen the government approach the opposition to be able to have literally hours and hours and hours of debate, and it has been rejected. Where we have found ourselves is that unless we are prepared to bring in time allocation, if the opposition does not want to pass legislation, it just has to put up speakers indefinitely and, in other words, give no indication that it will actually pass the legislation. Unfortunately, at times, without using the tool of time allocation, legislation would not pass. That is what we have been seeing over the last number of years. I am wondering if my colleague could provide his thoughts in that respect.

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:02:02 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I am not always privy to the same information the House leaders or parliamentary secretaries to the House leaders are privy to. What I can say is that in my previous life I was a university professor, and we had debates around the table in a variety of different contexts, whether it be the classroom or a seminar or a faculty council. We often would say to each other, do not repeat what someone has said. We should add what we have to say, add what is new, add what is different and give a gloss, but if we are just agreeing with someone, we should just say we agree with X or Y. We do not do that often enough in the House. The phenomenon that the hon. member points to is real, with people getting up and repeating the same, often pre-written speeches over and over again. That leads us to a point at which we are not serving Canadians anymore. We are not adding. That is not a debate, in any sense of the word. That is just talking, and it is talking meaninglessly, in a sense. I am not saying the words are not meaningful, but someone else has already said it and it has already been recorded into the Hansard. We are here today because that has happened far too often. All sides are guilty of it but, in particular, in this case, the opposition often uses this as a tactic simply to slow things down for the purpose of slowing things down. It is frustrating. It is frustrating for Canadians. It is frustrating for judges, who would like to be able to get their house in order in terms of their own discipline, but are having to wait longer than they should for a bill that ought to be fairly straightforward.

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Mrs. Kelly Block (Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC)

Oct/26/22 5:03:49 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, time and time again, we have seen the government mismanage the legislative agenda and then impose time allocation, citing urgency. It waited almost a year before it reintroduced this piece of legislation into Parliament. I just wonder why the government is so intent on limiting scrutiny of its legislation and giving parliamentarians the chance to honestly debate something so important.

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:04:26 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, for the record, on this bill, we actually introduced it in the Senate, as we had done in the previous Parliament, because we thought that was an appropriate place in order to manage our time efficiently. However, we had a ruling from the Speaker that it had to be introduced here because of the financial impact it might have. That explains the delay: We tried to introduce it in the other place before we introduced it here. That being said, we use both houses as best we can, and as a minister I certainly try to use both houses and get legislation through as fast as I can. I do my best to make sure I have dialogue with my colleagues across the way, so we get legislation through more quickly, and I think my colleagues across the way have responded positively on a number of different occasions. We have come together in the House precisely to pass legislation in the criminal law sphere that is important to Canadians. As a minister, I am doing my best to work with the opposition. Some days we run out of time.

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Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)

Oct/26/22 5:05:40 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, since we are talking about amendments to the Judges Act, I want to comment on and put on the record the number of people who have given me feedback on the appointment of exceptional judges over the past couple of years. I want to congratulate the minister on his hard work to make sure our bench represents the breadth of Canada. It is something that has been noticed across Canada. On that point, as we have new judges who are appointed, it will be important to have the Judges Act modernized to reflect the general consensus that has been built among the judiciary, including the Canadian Judicial Council. I am wondering if the minister could comment on that.

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:06:34 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, the quality and diversity of appointments is an important part of the picture, and this piece of legislation is an important part of the picture, because it reinforces the principle of judicial independence. It reinforces the principle of judicial responsibility in the management and maintenance of high standards, which helps the administration of justice and the confidence Canadians have in the justice system. I would also add that we have added, as a government, based on a private member's bill from Rona Ambrose, former member of Parliament and former interim leader of the Conservative Party, measures to better train judges at the outset, so they will be better judges when cases come before them. When we put all that together, we are putting together a justice system that not only reflects the diversity of Canada but also reflects the quality and the competence of Canadians and gives us better justice.

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Mrs. Cathay Wagantall (Yorkton—Melville, CPC)

Oct/26/22 5:07:54 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity to challenge the fact that we are doing this today. The minister mentioned that people stand up and repeat and repeat and repeat. It is really important to me to have the opportunity to represent my constituents in this place and speak on issues that are important to me and to them, regardless of who else has spoken on them already. Quite often in this House, different people are in the room at different times, and it is an opportunity to continue that conversation. As well, this rush the government seems to find itself in so often is because of mismanagement of its programs. An example would be its decision on COVID wage support. It came up with a percentage. We worked hard to convince the government this was not going to be effective enough, and we had to turn around and come back to this place and go through the motions again because of a change there. On providing loans through the banks, it did not include the credit unions as a means of doing that, and it took time for our constituents and the credit unions to bring that to the forefront. That is why we needed to continue: to ensure things were being handled in certain ways. That is our responsibility in this place. I am just wondering what the minister's views would be on the fact that these are things the opposition needs to have the opportunity to do.

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:09:20 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, again, I appreciate the very sincere place whence the question comes. When those kinds of suggestions are being made, whether it is here in this House or in committee, when that kind of constructive dialogue that makes legislation better is the subject matter of debate, I am all for it. However, when debate is done and procedural shenanigans are added simply for the purpose of slowing down the passage of legislation, when it is no longer the case that bettering the bill or furthering debate is the point of the exercise, then it is time to have a vote and move on. We are not serving Canadians by just putting sand in the machinery, by putting sand in the cogs. We are serving Canadians when we are trying to better pieces of legislation and when we are playing our various roles as parliamentarians. I agree with the hon. member if that is the sentiment, but far too often that is not the sentiment from the other side. It is merely shutdown tactics to try to slow or stop the government from moving forward.

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Oct/26/22 5:10:42 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, it is a rare opportunity for me to speak to this kind of motion and follow up on something the minister said. I think we all agree that we would like to see the smoother operation of this place. I have had the honour of working in and around Parliament Hill for a number of decades. We used to have more co-operation among the House leaders. We used to have better scheduling of debates so that bills that had virtually unanimous support, like Bill C-9, did not need to have repetitive speeches. I put to the hon. member, as I have before in this place, the solution is not closure motions, but to fully use the rules of Westminster parliamentary democracy and not allow the reading of speeches, which will then have a very salutary effect on the number of members who are prepared to stand up and speak to an issue. They would have to know it well enough to speak without reading a written speech and especially not a written speech prepared by somebody else. I urge the hon. minister and all members of the front bench of the government to strongly consider working with the Speaker and other House leaders to find ways for this place to work better through co-operation and respect for our rules.

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:11:54 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I share the member's sentiment. In fact, she has inspired me to try to use speaking notes less over the course of my career here. I am not perfect, but I do my best to speak without the aid of notes when I can and to give my own thoughts when I can. It is something more difficult when the matter is a technical one, and I have to rely on some of the legal expertise that exists either in my department or in my ministry. However, I think she is correct. I want to reflect on something. When I was a graduate student in the U.K., I often went to see parliamentary debates, particular in the House of Lords, of all places, in the U.K. The quality of debate was simply so much better. It was, in large measure, because of what the hon. member spoke about. There was very little speaking from notes.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux

Oct/26/22 5:13:05 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, we often get caught up in what is taking place inside the chamber. Outside the chamber, we could talk about the Canadian Judicial Council. There is an expectation outside the House of Commons. This legislation is something that the council is quite anxious to see pass. We talked about stakeholders. All we are really looking at is trying to get it out of the second reading stage. There is still going to be a lot more dialogue on this. There is no doubt a lot of the stakeholders are wondering why, when it looks like there is a fairly wide spectrum of support for the legislation, we do not get it to committee stage, at the very least, as quickly as possible.

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:13:58 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I agree with that point. I want to list some of the groups that were consulted by the Canadian Judicial Council, like the Canadian Bar Association, the Federation of Law Societies and the Council of Canadian Law Deans. The member is absolutely right. This will go to committee. All sides will be able to bring witnesses to see if anything was missed. I hope it will be done fairly expeditiously because I think there is a high level of general agreement on this bill. It is something that judges, in particular, feel needs to pass quickly. They have implored us to do it. They came out in September in a press release and said they wanted us to pass this quickly. When one member of the judiciary gets criticized for behaviour that is not becoming of a judge and it brings the system of justice into disrepute, they all feel it. It is important that they exercise this responsibility and create a better system to better manage themselves and hold themselves to the highest standard. It is important for us to react to that and to change something that was originally enacted 50 years ago. Reform to it is long overdue.

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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, CPC)

Oct/26/22 5:15:29 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, it is obvious the minister is looking for another party to support closure. He is not going to get it from us. Historically, the NDP has been opposed to closure. Which party does he expect to vote with his party in order to get this through?

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:15:54 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I usually leave those sorts of things to our House leaders to discuss among themselves. I am here today because this bill needs to get through. We need to get it to committee so that, if there are other improvements that can be made, they can be made. As I said, we had the absolutely horrific case of a judge who was caught purchasing cocaine a couple of weeks before he was to be sworn in. Then when the time came that the judges took action against him, he used every single lateral procedural move he could, extended the case out over a period of years and cost the taxpayers a whole lot of money. What we are trying to do is make the system not only more just and fair but also more efficient, so that it does not bring the whole system of justice into disrepute.

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Mr. Lloyd Longfield (Guelph, Lib.)

Oct/26/22 5:16:58 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for standing up in defence of law and order in the House. We can think of what the minister has done in terms of jury reform and in terms of diversity on jury panels, as well as supporting judges so that they can do their work effectively. The country relies on the House of Commons to provide guidance and direction so that our law and order system is effective. When we delay things, it really has consequences. I know the minister has talked about the consequences, but how important is it for us, as parliamentarians, regardless of the party, to support law and order in our country?

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Hon. David Lametti

Oct/26/22 5:17:40 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, again, I salute the sincere place that question comes from. It is important we do our best. I have already mentioned there has been a large degree of agreement on a lot of the things we have brought forward on the justice agenda, from the Conservative Party, from the NDP, from the Bloc Québécois and from the Greens, and I am proud of that. One of the most formative experiences in my life was clerking for a judge at the Supreme Court of Canada, Justice Peter Cory. He remains one of my touchstones every day, in terms of how I conduct myself and what I aspire to. I think that is the kind of inspiration that should push all of us, I hope, toward passing this kind of legislation. People will tell us that Justice Cory was the most ethical human being who ever walked this earth, and I agree with that. If this legislation, in any way, shape or form, helps us to have more Peter Corys out there, then I think the world would be a better place.

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Mr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC)

Oct/26/22 5:18:55 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-9

Mr. Speaker, I happen to be one of the members who was cut off from speaking on this bill. It happened to me the other day with a programming motion as well, so I am little perturbed, because I had a question regarding an article in the Vancouver Sun today that I wanted to discuss in my debate. The residents of Vancouver feel their streets are becoming lawless and that repeat offenders are having a major impact on property crime in the province of British Columbia. In fact, at the recent breakfast town hall hosted by the chief of the Abbotsford police, they talked about the problem dealing with repeat offenders. I hope the justice minister might be able to comment on that and the need to address repeat offenders. Hopefully something can be done to keep our streets and communities safe in B.C., because people do not feel that way right now.

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