44th Parl. 1st Sess.
March 6, 2023 11:00AM
Madam Speaker, Conservatives have been calling for the government to deal with the very real threat of foreign interference for years. This is not only a threat on the government side but also something that takes on other forms, such as cyber-espionage.
Not everything in this bill is terrible, but it could have been structured better. As the previous member from Winnipeg said, Conservatives on the committee will work to make the legislation better and ask qualifying questions. Moreover, we will pull support if the current government continues to stonewall and ask us to trust it without offering better arguments or better amendments.
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Madam Speaker, I commend my Conservative colleague for his speech.
We have heard concerns about the fact that legislating in this manner and governing essential cybersecurity infrastructure could have an impact on the freedom of expression of Quebeckers and Canadians.
I would like to ask my colleague whether he believes it is possible to implement such legislation so that we can regulate and govern essential cybersecurity infrastructure as needed while protecting freedom of expression. I would like to hear his thoughts on that.
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Madam Speaker, I do not have a precise answer to the member's question, but I do know that this is not it. The government has basically thrown everything to a one-sided argument. Industry has raised concerns with the government that there is no two-way communication. Industry can report to government, but there is no way to have any kind of forward guidance from the government in this legislation. Those one-way streets lead nowhere.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the speech my colleague made. I think the track record here is one of the biggest points I took from his speech. Specifically, he referenced how the government delayed enforcing its decision on Huawei for years. This is not a new concern after eight years of the Liberals delaying and refusing to act or provide leadership while many of our global counterparts have done so.
Specifically, he emphasized the example of Huawei very well. Could he expand a little on how damaging the delay was to Canada's international reputation on cybersecurity?
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Madam Speaker, governments are made of people, and people make mistakes. After talking to many of our allies and seeing what our other Five Eyes partners in the United States, Great Britain, New Zealand and Australia have done, the government probably heard the feedback that it was a black eye that it took so long for Huawei to be banned from Canada's 5G infrastructure. This is now perhaps an overreaction to try to make up for that.
Let me say this. In this place, in this country, we want laws that are just, fair, and most of all, practicable. Unfortunately, this is a one-size-fits-all, big, bossy government that asks us to trust it because it knows the shots and will take them as it sees them. It has not done well in the past, and I believe that this overshoot is to respond to that lack of credibility with respect to Huawei. However, two wrongs do not make a right.
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- Mar/6/23 4:54:49 p.m.
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Order.
It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Victoria, Taxation; the hon. member for Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship; the hon. member for Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, Cannabis.
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Madam Speaker, today I will be talking about the bill we have been discussing for the past few hours, Bill C‑26, an act respecting cyber security, amending the Telecommunications Act and making consequential amendments to other acts.
From the outset, I would like to mention that in 2019, when I arrived in the House of Commons, the topic on everyone's lips was the data breach at Desjardins. To put things into context, at the time I was a member of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. I was determined to find out how we might protect privacy and decorrelate the social insurance number that we were using far too readily as a means of identification. My colleagues see where I am going with this.
It took a scandal for the government to do something about this. Now I am no longer a member of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, I am vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Again, it took a scandal being uncovered by the media for the government to truly listen to us.
This is a case of being lax when it comes to the security of the electoral process and national security. I am addressing all those who are listening to us; I hear their concerns. For the past six months, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs has been looking into Chinese interference in our electoral process. It is likely that there will be an announcement in the near future that will once again demonstrate that we really need to sound the alarm to get things moving. Of course, the Bloc Québécois will always be vigilant. The Bloc Québécois will be there every time it is important to get to the bottom of various allegations or scandals. We will force the government to take action for our constituents, because they deserve it.
In light of all that, it goes without saying that Bill C‑26 is a step in the right direction. The bill introduced by the Minister of Public Safety aims to strengthen the security of Canada's telecommunications system. That said, I want to be honest. I have serious concerns. Over the past few years, my confidence in the government on security issues has been eroded. The government must not stick its head in the sand. Quebeckers need assurances. They need to be assured that this paternalistic and so-called well-intentioned government is doing its job, particularly in its areas of jurisdiction. That is all we ask and all we expect.
We know that China, Iran and Russia can be considered hostile powers that do not wish us well. When someone does not wish us well, we have to protect ourselves. The government absolutely has to come up with systems to guard against what we have seen since the latest scandals. We demand an explanation, and answers are to be expected, yet the government says everything will be fine and we should move on to other things. Unfortunately, our constituents feel betrayed and lack confidence in this government because it is not taking things seriously, as all the numbers indicate.
Regarding what is going on with Beijing specifically, I wonder if there is something we do not know. Why are we taking action so late in the game? Why are we always reacting? I am fed up with all this dissatisfaction. Every time I go back to my riding, my constituents want to talk to me about this, and I get why they are feeling discouraged.
As members know, I will be going to the United Kingdom. We are going to be taking a look at the procedures in different Commonwealth countries so we can implement other countries' best practices with respect to national defence and protection against interference in our elections.
I know that when having discussions with my colleagues, I am going to have to tell them that the process is ongoing even though the British and the Australians understand the situation and have taken action. The Americans, too, understand and are taking action. I am wondering if our closest allies, our Five Eyes partners, still have confidence in us.
For quite some time, the Bloc Québécois maintained that the government needed to tighten control over broadcasting. That is unequivocal. It was part of the discussion on the Huawei and 5G infrastructure file. We continued to call out the government for its indecision, which went on too long. This proves once again that we were right. However, international pressure from our closest allies was needed to make the government take action.
Everything is always so urgent. Urgency seems to be an imperative that really drives this government. We would like to see the government change its ways and become more proactive rather than reactive. With Bill C-26, I think we finally have a starting point. Obviously, there is a lot of work to be done to go further in terms of accountability, in terms of the legitimacy of disclosure on all sides, so we can prevent situations like the one we are in.
I agree that it is a noble goal. Of course I agree with everything about the security of our critical systems. Do we have everything we need right now to deal with both internal and external threats? The answer is no. That is what we have been told and what we continue hearing, at both the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. We must act. This bill must be quickly sent to committee to be fine-tuned and given some teeth. It is urgent.
I am making a wish and sending it out to the members of the government. I am asking them to always keep in mind our collective security. I trust that they will. We have faith, but we need to be proactive, smart. We also need to talk to our constituents, to speak to people's intelligence. They have suggestions. The G20 countries have good practices that we need to adopt as quickly as possible. We need to set aside partisanship in the interest of our democracy. We need to ensure that the legislation resulting from Bill C-26 really makes people feel safe and lets them know that there is a public, non-partisan institution there to watch out for threats.
The bill names six public organizations that will be given the power to order investigations to make sure things are being done right. I am talking about the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, the Minister of Industry, the Bank of Canada, the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, the Canadian Energy Regulator and the Minister of Transport. These are critical sectors of our society and our economy. We must not take threats lightly. Is this enough? We will need experts to tell us whether this is truly legitimate, both for whistle-blowers and for the dissemination of information, because people need to know.
Since I only have about 30 seconds left, I would like to say to those who were just here that the government took action with regard to TikTok because, once again, there was an urgent need to do so. I hope that any future interventions will be undertaken proactively.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the comments the member has made. However, when we go to these conferences, one thing that is important to recognize is that even with the legislation, compared to other countries, this is an ongoing issue and cybersecurity is dealt with in a wide variety of ways. What we are talking about today is a very important tool. We have been talking about it and have the legislation before us. We now have an opportunity. In listening to members on all sides of the House, we see that there is a will to support the legislation going to committee. My concern is that if we do not allow that opportunity, there is a finite amount of time. We would like to see the legislation go to committee so that opposition members could propose ideas, suggestions and possible amendments.
Could the member provide her thoughts in regard to the importance of trying to get the legislation to the next stage, given that everyone seems to be supporting the legislation?
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Madam Speaker, that is a very interesting question. Here is what I would say in response. If my colleague and I were to switch places, I would say that one of the truly urgent and useful things we could do would be to fine-tune and improve the bill to show that the government really cares about cybersecurity and wants to make sure it protects Canadians from all cyber-attacks and any potential interference while strengthening transparency.
If I were in government, which will never happen, I would make sure I handed over everything if someone asked me for information. I would not hide anything to avoid a potential scandal a year from now. I would take it that far with this bill. That would be the first step in a constructive process.
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Madam Speaker, there were definitely some words in the member's speech that I have to agree with as a member of the NDP, which are really around the Liberals' not taking due care in preparing these pieces of legislation that are coming to the House of Commons. They are not taking due care. They are bringing in these bills that need so much work, and it just appears that perhaps they are not committed to doing their best here. I wonder if they are not qualified, if they are outsourcing to people who are not qualified or what is going on here. I would like to hear if the member really thinks that this is salvageable in committee.
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Madam Speaker, in my opinion, a government that knows where it is headed and has the competence to get there does not stumble around and try to clear its conscience or improve its own image. On the contrary, a leader who is in a really good position does not wait for the opposition's proposals to figure out what to do. My colleague asked a good question. I will let people come to their own conclusions in that regard.
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Madam Speaker, I will ask a question I asked earlier of another member. In this member's opinion, what does she view as the greatest threat to Canada's cybersecurity? Is it state actors? Is it cybercrime and cyber-technology? Specifically, what does the member think is the greatest threat that we face as a nation around cybersecurity?
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Madam Speaker, that is exactly one of the questions we need to ask the experts. We must listen to them and accept their recommendations. We must take action based on the analyses of scientists, particularly those who may have had to reconsider some mechanisms.
Obviously, it is important to be ready to act. The answer might be very different depending on the situation. We are hearing a lot about foreign interference in elections these days. We would like this bill to help put an end to that.
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Madam Speaker, I will take maybe a different tack today to contribute to this debate on cybersecurity. I am going to tell a story about Tom and how he has been impacted by technological changes over the last couple of decades. Before I tell Tom's story, I have to share Emily's story with technology and why this legislation and changes to cybersecurity in Canada are so important and so needed.
Before I get into that, I think it is important to first lay out in simple terms what this bill is about from my current understanding. There are really two parts to the bill.
The first part is about amending the Telecommunications Act to address and fix the security needed for our Canadian telecommunications system. The bill would do this by addressing it through two means. First, it would “direct telecommunications service providers to do anything, or refrain from doing anything, that is necessary to secure the Canadian telecommunications system.” As well, it would establish some monetary penalties tied to those changes.
The second part of the bill is all tied to the critical cyber systems protection act. It would provide the framework for the protection of our critical cyber systems, which are vital to national security and public safety. It would do that through five different aspects. First, it would authorize the government to designate those services that are vital to Canadians, those critical sorts of services, what they are and what systems are tied to them. Second, it would authorize the government to establish who is responsible for maintaining those systems. Third, it has how these cybersecurity incidents would be reported and how Canadians and institutions comply with those changes. Fourth, it lays out how information would be shared and, arguably, needs to be protected. Finally, it gives the “so what” of the enforcement and the consequences for non-compliance with the legislation.
In reality, this bill is quite lengthy and very technical, so I am going to focus most of my speech around two important aspects of the bill. The first aspect is the threats to cybersecurity. The second is information sharing and the need to protect Canadians' privacy rights while highlighting the important need for transparency. How would the government ensure the accountability of any institution affected by this bill, particularly the government itself, with the additional powers this legislation would grant it?
Let us get back to Emily. She is a senior citizen and a retired teacher. She uses a mix of online banking and billing, although she still prefers to handle the majority of her financial transactions right at the bank. She has a fledging social media presence mainly to stay in contact with her grandchildren and friends. She even has a TikTok account at her grandchildren's urging. We will see if she is going to change her mind and delete that sooner than later.
Being online and connected is essential to all Canadians now, more than ever, as a lot of Canadians rely on the Internet for their daily lives. It is about more than just conducting business and paying bills. As I have mentioned, we have seen an increased dependency on the Internet, especially for government services. In the last few years, under the Liberal government, it continues to shift more and more government services online, while unfortunately decreasing service delivery for those without access to the Internet at the same time. I will not go into detail on all the shortfalls I see with the current approach, considering that a large portion of rural Canada still do not have access to high-speed or dependable Internet.
What threats does Emily face? She complains about getting emails and phone calls from people alleging to be affiliated with her bank or service providers. She wonders about the advertising that shows up on her social media feeds that align with something she only mentioned in an email to a friend. How is all of this happening?
To quote the director of CSIS from December 4, 2018, over four years ago, during a speech that he gave to Bay Street, which I have extracted from Stephanie Carvin's Stand on Guard, Mr. Vigneault stated that the greatest threat to our prosperity and national interest is “foreign influence and espionage.” While terrorism remains the number one threat to public safety, “other national security threats—such as foreign interference, cyber threats, and espionage—pose greater strategic challenges”.
In her book, Professor Carvin clearly lays out the risks associated with cyber-attacks, whether malware, ransomware, a targeting of critical infrastructure, denials of services or others. She talks about cyberterrorism, cyber-espionage and cybercrime, so how do we deal with this?
We deal with this not only through this legislation, but also, mainly for some of the challenges we have, as my colleague from Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman talked about in much greater detail earlier today in his speech, our Canadian Armed Forces, the Communications Security Establishment and even our federal police services, which have ways to deal with this. My colleague hinted that sometimes the best defence is a good offence.
Offensive cyber-operations are really not the bailiwick of this legislation, although I would offer that there is some overlap, as we look at a lot of these threats Canadians and Canadian institutions are facing are financed through cyber-attacks and more here at home. We need to tackle this and get the balance right.
The bottom line is Emily and Canadians like her being affected by all of these cyber risks. Professor Carvin pointed out that at least 10 million Canadians had their data compromised in 2017 alone. Unfortunately, this number is likely under-reported, and neither the government nor the private sector fully understand the scale of the problem. To sum up, the threats are huge.
Bill C-26 must balance privacy rights while ensuring national security. Increased use of encrypted apps, data being stored in the cloud on servers outside of Canada, IP protection and more factor into the challenges of getting this legislation right. In order to deal with these threats, the legislation would need to enable our security establishments with robust, flexible powers. However, these robust powers must come with clear guidance on how far and when to inform the public. This is essential in rebuilding our trust in our democratic institutions.
The Business Council of Canada has already publicly expressed concerns over the current draft of this legislation. It rightly identified that large companies, and also small- and medium-sized enterprises, are concerned that the sheer amount of red tape tied to this bill is extremely high.
We need to get the balance right. It is vital, and it is going to require significant expert testimony at committee. Although I would argue the legislation is desperately needed, and I would argue even late in coming, it needs to be done right and cannot be rushed through debate or review at the committee stage.
I have some final comments. This legislation is needed to protect Canadians. However, this legislation needs to be reviewed regularly and needs to include safeguards. I know if he gets the chance, the member for Winnipeg North might ask about what amendment we are recommending. There is no annual reporting mechanism in this bill, so the government should have to table an annual report to Parliament outlining the progress on this legislation, and include an updated cyber threat assessment to Canadians and what it has been hearing back from the companies impacted by this legislation.
Sean McFate, in this book The New Rules of War: Victory in the Age of Durable Disorder, wrote, “ Secrets and democracy are not compatible.... Democracy thrives in the light of information and transparency.”
Finally, I will conclude with Tom's story and how he has been impacted by technology. The bottom line is that he has not been. He does not have a cell phone. He does not use the Internet. He only pays in cash and does not have a credit card. The only way he is currently being impacted is when he shows up to try to get some federal services from the government. He cannot do it because he does not have any of that, and he cannot get anybody to show up in an office to work.
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Madam Speaker, I listened intently to the member opposite's speech. He spoke about transparency. He talked about advertising and constituents who wondered how certain ads were targeted to them. He spoke about annual reporting.
In that vein, I am curious if the member opposite would like to report to the House anything that the Conservative Party has done to condemn their leader for the misogynistic, anti-women hate hashtags that were used to target individuals who promote hate towards women and violence. That is a form of domestic terrorism CSIS has highlighted as well.
Would the member opposite like to talk about clarifying in the House how Conservatives are going to address the cyber-attacks against women in this country?
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Madam Speaker, I suggest that the member ask the member for Carleton, the Leader of the Opposition, to answer that question because I cannot speak for him other than to state that he has put out a very clear, definitive statement condemning the hashtags that were put on some videos, which he knew nothing about. I will leave my comments at that.
The last time I checked, we are debating Bill C-26, legislation that is needed to protect Canadians. It needs to be improved and debated to get it right so we can deal with threats of political interference from foreign states, such as the Communist Chinese government. That is of utmost importance to Canadians.
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Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to my colleague's speech.
The Bloc Québécois has often supported the need for the government to tighten cybersecurity controls. I am curious about the Conservative Party and I have a question for my colleague. There has been a lot of doubt and uncertainty concerning cyber-attacks and companies like Huawei. We know and people know that a former candidate for the Conservative leadership worked with Huawei.
I would like my colleague to explain to me what credibility the Conservative Party has today, as we talk about cybersecurity and Chinese interference, because one of its own members, who was a leadership candidate, worked with a company like Huawei. The giants in this world, the Five Eyes in particular, have stopped doing business with this company. Today, we are once again asking how that party can lecture everyone else about cybersecurity.
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Madam Speaker, I think the public record of the House and this party in the chamber has been clear-cut on the issue of Huawei. We have called for it to be disavowed, taken off devices and not be allowed to be a provider here. That was passed a year and a half ago.
Whether someone had private employment prior to them declaring or running in a leadership race is a great question for the individual. Because somebody's past history involved them working for different institutions and companies, yes, we can judge those individuals, but let us talk about the public record here. I would argue that there has been no party in the history of Canada that has stood up more for the defence and sovereignty of this nation than the Conservative Party of Canada.
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Madam Speaker, a common theme I have heard, highlighted well from members from the Conservative side, is how past records are one of the best indicators for future success or failure. Certainly, when it comes to the issues surrounding Huawei and cybersecurity, we see Canada, especially its reputation on the world stage, being greatly diminished by the actions and, in many cases, inactions of the Liberal government and the Prime Minister over the course of five years.
Could he expand on how those past actions have diminished Canada's reputation among allies and partners?
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Madam Speaker, I referenced a couple important books and a couple references by some of our esteemed national security experts across this country. If people read through that and read some books that are out there, they would see this is a threat that has been building for the better part of a decade or more.
The government has known about this since the day it formed government, yet we have seen no action. As mentioned by the CSIS director from 2018, here we are almost five years later, and we are just now seeing this important legislation being delivered.
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