44th Parl. 1st Sess.
March 7, 2023 10:00AM
Madam Speaker, that is an interesting question. It is a good example of why this bill needs to go to committee to be studied. There are many questions that I have raised and other speakers have raised, and these are things that need to be looked at in committee. The committee is in a great place to call witnesses and to look further into some of these things.
I believe that changes need to be made to this legislation to improve it. The member's suggestion is one possible way that it could be looked at. There are many more things that could be looked at, and I believe the committee is the right place to do that.
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Madam Speaker, I think it is ironic that members of the Liberal Party, the government, are claiming some sort of aversion to big corporations. Obviously, they have not read the bill. Subclause 18(3) says:
(3) An organization may collect or use an individual’s personal information without their knowledge or consent if the collection or use is made for the purpose of an activity in which the organization has a legitimate interest that outweighs any potential adverse effect on the individual
The government does not believe in the protection of personal privacy. It believes in the protection of access to data for companies.
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Madam Speaker, I agree with the summary of that. The government is mostly concerned about big business and the ability to use data. The Conservatives are concerned about individual Canadians and their right to privacy protection.
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Madam Speaker, last week, the federal government banned the use of the TikTok app on government devices because of data privacy concerns, so it is very appropriate for us to be discussing this matter today. Digital data privacy can be seen as a fundamental right, one that urgently requires strengthened legislation, protections and enforcement. Canadians must have the right to access and control the collection, use, monitoring, retention and disclosure of their personal data.
This is a pressing issue. Realizing that, the European Union introduced the GDPR, its General Data Protection Regulation, in 2016. EU countries were given a couple of years to adapt to this new privacy reality, with the regulation coming into effect in 2018. The GDPR has been used by many other countries as a framework for privacy protection.
With the GDPR as an example, and faced with a changing digital data universe, the government basically did nothing to protect data privacy for Canadians. Perhaps that is an unfair statement. After all, digital and online data privacy was addressed in the last Parliament under Bill C-11. The Liberals recognized that Canada needed to bring its privacy laws into the 21st century.
However, that bill was never passed. Apparently, data privacy was not a big enough issue to be made a priority, and the digital charter implementation act was scrapped in favour of an election that Canadians neither wanted nor needed. Now we are asked once again to address this subject. It is indeed better late than never. I would have hoped, though, that with the delay, the government could have improved on what it is proposing.
Perhaps if the government had moved a little faster, Canadians would not have had to question how their data was being used and how their privacy was being invaded by governments and corporations. We are left to wonder how many privacy breaches have gone undetected or unreported. The ones we know of are disturbing enough. Tim Hortons used its app to track customer movements. The RCMP used Clearview AI’s illegally created facial recognition database. Telus gave customer location data to PHAC.
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It has been more than 20 years since Canada’s existing digital privacy framework, the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, PIPEDA, was passed. With technological changes in recent years, legislation is needed to address subjects such as biometrics and artificial intelligence. We have to consider how Canadians understand the issue of consent when it comes to the use of their data and their privacy.
I am deeply concerned and disappointed with how sloppy the Liberal approach in Bill C-27, the digital charter implementation act, 2022, currently is. Privacy is a fundamental right. This bill does not mention that, despite the Supreme Court of Canada having acknowledged it. We need to clearly distinguish the extent to which Canadians’ digital privacy will be protected. If the government wants the bill to be fully effective, it needs to further explore the scope of accountability required when privacy is breached.
The clear definition of consent is a major improvement from what it once was in the Personal Information Protection and Electronics Document Act, but a good definition is only the beginning. Because technology has greatly expanded and evolved since the implementation of PIPEDA, should we not also expand the umbrella of activities that consent would cover? The large number of exemptions allowed would weaken the impact of the legislation.
Bill C-27 may be a good beginning, but I had hoped for something better. It is sad that the bill’s title is perhaps the strongest statement in the legislation. While the title gives some idea of what the legislation is all about, it is already dated. We are no longer in 2022, and the Liberals are once again falling behind.
As parliamentarians, we know the power of words and the importance of speaking in a way that can be understood by those receiving the message. It is important that legislation can be understood. It is even more crucial that the bills we pass spell out exactly what we intend.
Perhaps the most important part of any of the laws is the section that provides definitions. They need to be clear and comprehensible and not subject to differing interpretations that weaken the intent of the legislation. Legislation that allows each person to provide their own definitions is problematic. Bill C-27 uses words such as “significant impact” or “sensitive information”. I cannot help but question what is covered by these vague terms.
Before the people of Edmonton Manning sent me to represent them in the House, I was a businessman. I understood the importance of safeguarding the personal information my customers entrusted to me and not to abuse that trust. However, as we have seen, some companies make unauthorized use of the information they gather to gain a competitive edge or for profit.
With that in mind, there must be a balance between acceptable use of data by business and the fundamental protection of our privacy. It seems to me that the balance is wrong on this bill, given the way it addresses user consent and the use of collected information.
The more I read Bill C-27, which 100 pages-plus, the more questions I have. There is too much in it in need of clarification. Yes, that will be done when it goes to committee after second reading, but the government could have presented a better bill to make the committee’s work easier.
I do not want to sound too negative. I know the Liberals mean well, even if they do not seem to be able to quite understand just how important digital privacy is to Canadians in the 21st century. I am pleased therefore to see that they understand that sometimes mere words or a scolding are not enough.
It makes sense to me that the Privacy Commissioner will receive new powers to enforce violations of the consumer privacy protection act. That may be the most impactful change the legislation brings about. It is not enough to simply recommend that perpetrators stop their violations. Any parent could tell us that consequences are needed if we want to ensure improved behaviour.
With the Privacy Commissioner finally being able to force violators to conform to the rules, I think we will see increased respect and better treatment of Canadians' personal information. The harsh financial penalties for non-compliance will be a powerful motivator.
Given the amount of time the Liberals had before presenting Bill C-27, we must question why they did not come up with a better bill. They have left me, and all Canadians, asking if they really understand what their own legislation is supposed to do.
Does the consumer privacy protection act, as proposed in the bill, do enough to properly protect Canadians’ personal information? The Liberals had a chance to look at the EU’s GDPR and see how well that worked. Did they learn anything?
Would Bill C-27 improve the protection of Canadians’ personal information or are there so many exemptions for needing consent in the sharing of personal information that the words of the bill are meaningless?
Would the legislation create proper protections for Canadians’ biometric data? Given that no such protection currently exists, perhaps we should be thankful that the subject is addressed at all.
Is it reasonable to exempt security agencies and departments, such as CSE, CSIS and DND from AI regulations? How do you balance privacy and security concerns?
Canadians’ digital privacy and data needs to be properly protected. This bill is a flawed attempt to start the long overdue overhaul of Canada’s digital data privacy framework. The Conservatives will be looking at putting forward some common-sense amendments at the committee stage to ensure we have the best possible legislation.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to go to the principles of the legislation, which the member just said he would like to see a series of amendments at committee.
Would the member concede that if the bill does not pass through, he will never have the opportunity to propose those amendments? It would, in essence, sabotage legislation that is substantive and that is there to protect the privacy of Canadians. There would be substantial financial consequences where there have been violations of this law.
Could he provide his thoughts on that?
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Madam Speaker, in a previous Parliament, the government killed Bill C-11 because it wanted to have an election. It did not see the importance of that bill. Now the government is proposing a flawed bill and expecting us to support it. We will support a bill that really makes sense, a bill that will help and work for Canadians.
I do not think we have any interest in wasting time. It is up to the government to do something with its bill to make it acceptable for other parties to support it.
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Madam Speaker, I thank the member for Edmonton Manning for saying something at the start of his speech that we believe is quite important. He said that a lot of our personal data is already compromised. It is already compromised because the government was so lax before introducing legislation. It would not even have gone ahead with Bill C‑27 if it had not felt pressured by the European legislation.
Bill C‑27 does nothing to protect individuals whose data is already compromised, so does my colleague from Edmonton Manning have some ideas for amendments that would address that?
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Madam Speaker, I did mention the European law and the fact that the government was too late at looking at it and in considering steps to bring Canadians legislation that would help and that was most needed.
I also mentioned the fact that there are a lot of vague definitions that will lead to problems for this bill to be resolved.
The government presented the bill much later than the Europeans, who presented their bill in 2016. It is 2023 now. It could have done something much faster, quicker and more mature so we could work together to provide Canadians something that is most needed.
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Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for his recommendations on the many amendments that are needed to strengthen this bill. In particular, I am interested in one of them, which is about empowering the Privacy Commissioner. We know that this is essential if we want to protect the rights of Canadians. One way to do that would be to equip the Privacy Commissioner with the power to seek the imposition of administrative monetary penalties in a manner that would be similar to the powers that the commissioner for competition has under the Competition Act.
I would like the member to elaborate on how we must empower the Privacy Commissioner and ensure that he has the powers to enforce Canadians' privacy rights. In particular, on this issue, does he agree we need to amend this legislation?
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Madam Speaker, I go back to the one thing I mentioned. Even these vague definitions would still be in the hands of the minister to decide after the fact, and that is one of the biggest flaws in the bill. We do not understand how the minister would handle this and whether the minister would let the commissioners play their roles and do their jobs. That is why we have to be very careful approaching the bill and examining it, especially at committee, to be able to bring forward an acceptable and effective piece of legislation.
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Madam Speaker, as it stands now, federal laws do not require federal political parties to follow the same privacy laws that apply to others across the country. This is an issue that could have been identified and addressed in Bill C-27, but it has not been. I wonder if the member for Edmonton Manning has a position on this and would he like to comment on it.
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Madam Speaker, I did actually edge on where the federal and provincial responsibilities come on certain aspects of privacy and privacy protection. Again, the definitions come into play in understanding the legislation. That is why the government could have done much better in bringing more clarity to the bill, so we could at least study it better.
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Madam Speaker, we are here today to talk about Bill C-27. It has got a big fancy name: an act to enact the consumer privacy and protection act. I worked on this extensively as former chair of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. A big part of what we talked about was Canadians' privacy.
I want to lead off with a question that I think all who are watching here will want an answer to by the end of what I have said, and I hope I get there. Can we trust this government when it comes to privacy?
We have heard many accounts. We have heard of foreign interference. We have seen evidence that that has been happening under the government. We cannot even keep track of all the ethics breaches.
There was a recent article in the National Post about Canadians' data, and many folks out there would remember this, called “Canada's public health agency admits it tracked 33 million mobile devices during lockdown” and it read, “The Public Health Agency of Canada accessed data such as cell-tower location to monitor people’s activity during lockdown, it said”.
Can we trust this government? I think the answer is becoming more and more clear.
What have we done to protect consumer privacy? I was, again, part of that ethics committee. We formed an international grand committee of nine countries, representing half a billion people, where we really tried to tackle this and get to some better practices for big tech.
Cambridge Analytica was a scandal where big tech was getting our information. Many points are being collected, and 53,000 points of information is what we heard was the Facebook average amount they are collecting on us, and that is being sold to the highest bidder. It is being used to not only give us a choice on what cereal we should buy in the morning but also surveil us to make predictive behaviour so we will kind of go in the direction they want us to go.
We Conservatives saw a need to have a better, more robust policy, so I will read from our constitution, our policy, which I was part of drafting, along with many other EDAs from across the country. This is from the Conservative Party:
The Conservative Party believes digital data privacy is a fundamental right that urgently requires strengthened legislation, protections, and enforcement. Canadians must have the right to access and control collection, use, monitoring, retention, and disclosure of their personal data. International violations should receive enforcement assistance from the Canadian Government.
That is just a little snapshot of what we have been doing over here. We would hope that legislation like this would address some of those privacy concerns. What we learned and what many are hearing from this debate is that there are huge exemptions for big tech, huge ways to use consumer data in ways that, first of all, consumers do not want their information being used for, and they do not even know how their information is being used.
I am going to get into some of the critics of Bill C-27. I will read from an article today by a young man, Bryan Short, who has some concerns around Bill C-27. Referring to Bill C-27, the article says:
...this change opens the door for companies to begin describing their data collection and surveillance practices in a highly simplified manner, leaving out important details about how this information could be used to harm and discriminate against a person or group of people, and ensuring that the data broker economy continues to thrive while people in Canada’s privacy rights are pushed to the side.
Well, according to the Liberals, this is what this bill is supposed to be addressing. Here, we see simplified consent. That is something that we have supported too. It should be something that we can understand, but not to be abused in this manner, where the fine print is down here and we just check that little box to make ourselves feel good that we have done it. We feel like our data or our privacy is protected, but it really is not.
I will read on: “But with deceptive design practices already being regularly used to encourage people to click 'agree' without really understanding what they’re signing up for, Bill C-27’s weakening of consent could be a big step backwards in terms of privacy.”
I will keep reading, as I have a little bit more from this particular author. We talk about the right to request deletion, and that is part of one's data that is online.
In reference to Bill C-27, the article says, “What’s lacking is a mechanism for when people change their mind about consenting to the collection and use of their personal information, or if they’re opposed to the use of their data and consent wasn’t required at all”.
We have seen the exemptions. They are a big haul. My colleague from Edmonton just referred to those exemptions. We want some better pieces of legislation. I applaud the effort. The previous privacy commissioner Therrien was excellent in caring about Canadians' data and really pursuing a solution for it and defending Canadians. I applaud him for that.
However, I am going to go on to another critic whom I have gotten to know very well from being on the committee, and from his work in Canadian information and how important that is to protect. He is a man named Jim Balsillie, a stranger to none of us in this place and former part owner of BlackBerry. I will read from the article from the Globe and Mail called, “Privacy is central to human well-being, democracy, and a vibrant economy. So why won’t the Trudeau government take it seriously?” The article, written by Mr. Balsillie, states:
Privacy is a fundamental human right that serves as a gateway to other rights and freedoms such as freedom of expression, individual and collective autonomy, and freedom from harassment or invasion. Privacy is critical for the healthy development of the human brain, identity, close relationships and social existence.... “True realization of freedom, that is a life led autonomously, is only possible in conditions where privacy is protected.”
We absolutely agree that privacy is a fundamental human right. I will go on, as this helps explain what Mr. Balsillie is referring to in that paragraph. The article continues:
Behavioural monitoring, analysis and targeting are no longer restricted to unscrupulous social-media companies, but have spread across all sectors of the economy, including retail, finance, telecommunications, health care, entertainment, education, transportation and others.
I have told many high school classes an example of this. We learned that people's data is being monitored in real time, so when standing in front of a display at a big box store, it is known that one happens to be standing in front of a certain brand of headphones, so people should not be surprised if they get an ad for these particular headphones, and why they should buy them, before they leave the store. In a good way, it is incredible, but it is scary in other ways too with the predictive nature of having all that information.
Mr. Balsillie goes on to criticize the current Liberal government. He says:
Yet, Canada's federal government has repeatedly failed to take privacy seriously and construct a legal and regulatory framework that protects the rights of Canadians in the digital age...the Digital Charter Implementation Act, normalizes and expands surveillance and treats privacy as an obstacle to corporate profits, not as a fundamental right or even a right to effective consumer protection. After years of cozying up to Big Tech and meeting with its lobbyists as often as twice a week, the Canadian [Liberal] government is finally coming to terms with the fact that the digital economy needs to be regulated.
The act expands surveillance. It does not reduce it.
I asked initially this question: Can Canadians trust the Liberal government? The Liberals are pretty close to big tech guys. I will use the example that many have been talking about, which are smart cities. That conversation was brought up many years ago and as recently as just a few years ago. Our efforts at the ethics committee were to really push back on this invasion of privacy and that a particular smart city in Toronto, Sidewalk Labs, would have been an invasion of Canadians' information. The Sidewalk Labs project would monitor data on many levels, and it has connections to the current Liberal government. I will read from an article, which states, “Sidewalk Labs project gained support from Trudeau in 2017 call ahead of bid process”.
The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès): The member knows we cannot use the names of current members.
Mr. Bob Zimmer: My apologies, Madam Speaker. It is a title, but that was my mistake.
What is concerning about this particular article is not just that the Prime Minister supports an invasive smart city kind of concept of monitoring everything, but that it was really done in secret. The people who wanted to get to the bottom of the Prime Minister's conversation with Google and Alphabet Inc. had to get a freedom of information request to find out that the government was having secret negotiations behind the scenes.
I started off by asking a question: Can we trust the Liberal government when it comes to privacy? I think the answer is a clear no.
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Madam Speaker, if my colleague opposite does not trust the government, does he trust Google to make the rules, follow its own rules and protect Canadians' privacy that way?
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Madam Speaker, that is a very interesting question from a Liberal member across the way. No, I do not. That is the reason we are tackling big tech, such as Facebook and Google. The invasiveness of big tech on our privacy and data is a huge concern.
Google was so linked to the current Liberal government and the former member for Vaughan was carrying the water for Sidewalk Labs. It was really something else. There were secret conversations happening to usher a Google project through. Absolutely, I do not trust it.
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Madam Speaker, as the member is aware, this bill is actually three bills packaged into one. It was the NDP that asked for a division to vote on artificial intelligence. The previous manifestations of Bill C-11 were enhanced with this bill.
What are his thoughts on the fact that this is the first time we are debating how to regulate artificial intelligence? Would it have been more appropriate to have an entirely separate process, as opposed to packing it in with two other pieces of legislation that we have done before? We have at least had some review in the chamber on one them, and they are less controversial in many respects. I would appreciate his comments on that.
I thank him for referencing Jim Balsillie, who has done a tremendous amount of work on this issue in protecting Canadians' privacy rights, which is the same as what the NDP has done. Physical rights and digital rights should be equal.
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Madam Speaker, yes, we absolutely support it being separated out. It is such a big issue to tackle, and we should tackle these things individually. They are huge issues.
As a testament to when we worked in ethics, often, across the aisle, we do not agree on things in this place, but the one thing we agreed on in our ethics committee was that we all cared about our privacy and Canadians' data. Among the Liberals across the way, there were a couple of members who were supportive of where we were going. I think, in the efforts of supporting all Canadians' right to privacy by not having our data sold and farmed out to the highest bidder, it is in our best interest to defend all Canadians' privacy in this place.
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Madam Speaker, I agree with some of the points my colleague made regarding concerns about privacy violations.
It really gets on my nerves too when I am looking at something and suddenly get bombarded with ads. We need laws to deal with that.
Here is my question for my colleague. We need a digital charter and better protection for our private data. Does my colleague think this ought to go to committee for an in-depth study so we can hear from all the relevant experts, make top-to-bottom improvements to the bill and make sure it is airtight?
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Madam Speaker, that is a good question. The more alarming part is that we get pop-ups, and they mysteriously show up after we have been in a certain place. We can extrapolate that to include testimony we have heard at committee.
These data farms and data-mining operations know how someone will vote before they even know how they are going to vote. That is what leads us to huge concerns around being guided in certain directions to vote, which is really anti-democratic. We believe this bill needs to go back, get rewritten and done right. We have the expertise in this place. The minister across the way just needs to listen.
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