SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 184 - Apr/25/23

Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC)

Apr/25/23 11:10:54 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am glad this important debate is able to take place. This House has indicated in the past that it would support sanctions for the Wagner Group. There are some possibilities it may be looking at, I believe, according to comments made today. Would the member from the Bloc support ensuring sanctions are applied, and applied quickly, if in fact it does become the case that the Russians endeavour to influence or start to pick sides and increase the violence in Sudan, which would risk greater peace and stability in the region?

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe

Apr/25/23 11:11:47 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question. We will definitely support every initiative on sanctions, especially for the Wagner Group. Today, Ukraine's ambassador to Canada appeared before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development to answer our questions. She said that, first, there are not enough sanctions and that, second, they are being poorly applied. It is great to impose sanctions, but they should at least be effective and produce results. The government is bragging about bringing in several sanctions in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. From what I understand, however, after more than a year of war, these sanctions do not seem to have done anything to improve the situation in Ukraine. It is one thing to impose sanctions, but they need to be effective and there needs to be enough of them to truly change things.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Apr/25/23 11:12:51 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, my colleague's comments on the sanctions are important for us to keep in mind today, because it would be very difficult for Canada to find an adequate way to sanction in this particular situation. The question I have for him is about one of the things I am quite seized with. In 2014, under Stephen Harper, a law was repealed and took away the duty to protect local embassy staff. What happened in Ukraine and Afghanistan is that the staff who supported the Canadian embassy were left behind, and we are seeing that again. That has not been changed. I have raised this with the minister multiple times. This has not been changed. I wonder if the member could talk about the fact that right now while we have been able to evacuate the Canadians from the Canadian embassy we have not been able to help our local staff.

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe

Apr/25/23 11:13:48 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is really sad. I thank my colleague for that important question. It seems as though this government and the previous governments never learned from the past. Where is the sense in making sure that we are able to evacuate Canadians who are working in embassies in places where there is a crisis or armed conflict, when we are leaving behind the people who work with those Canadians, who helped them day after day and who likely became their friends over time? They are Canada's friends. They are friends of the people working in the embassy, and we are leaving them behind. Is that fitting of a G7 country? I completely agree with my colleague. That is unacceptable. It is sad, and it makes us angry to see this kind of thing happening. It is unacceptable for a country like Canada to do this kind of thing.

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Ms. Arielle Kayabaga (London West, Lib.)

Apr/25/23 11:14:55 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank my colleague for his speech on this issue that is very important not only to Sudanese Canadians, but also to our communities. Large Sudanese communities have contacted me since the conflict began. They had a lot to say about the women and children caught up in this conflict. In the past, the Bloc Québécois has not always voted in favour of measures that target immigration to Canada and help bring people from all over the world to Canada. Will my colleague now seize the opportunity to state before everyone that it is important to support people who get caught in the middle of conflicts and, above all, to support immigration throughout Canada and Quebec?

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe

Apr/25/23 11:15:46 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, first, I would like the member to name the bills that the Bloc Québécois voted against. What I just heard is not true. Second, the members of the Bloc Québécois were among the most vocal supporters of bringing Ukrainians to Canada, because the government was not doing its job. That also applies to the Afghan refugees. Whenever there is a humanitarian crisis anywhere in the world, the Bloc Québécois is always the first to stand up and to tell the government that it must do its job and bring those people here. We should not be hearing such nonsense. That is appalling. It is disgraceful to bring up such nonsense during an emergency debate like this one.

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Mr. Kevin Vuong (Spadina—Fort York, Ind.)

Apr/25/23 11:16:44 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to begin by thanking my Bloc colleague for splitting his time with me. What is happening in Sudan goes beyond partisanship. It is a critical issue and, for some, literally a matter of life and death. I am grateful to my hon. colleague from Lac-Saint-Jean. I want to thank him for the opportunity to rise and contribute to this emergency debate on an issue that directly impacts not just the Sudanese but also many Canadians, including constituents from my riding of Spadina—Fort York. As we all know, there is a brutal conflict that is evolving, two autocratic sides in Sudan, each trying to obtain control of the country. Many Canadians have roots in Sudan and have family members still living there who are deeply affected by the conflict. Over the past week, the people of Khartoum have spent their time in cover. They can hear the heavy artillery. They can hear the air strikes. Some are low on food and water and are contemplating a dangerous attempt to flee their city and somehow get to a neighbouring country. Aside from the 1,700 registered Canadians who are in this human tragedy, one wonders how Canada was not better prepared to extract our citizens and to assist other nations in relocating refugees to safer countries. Canada once held dear the 2005 UN principle of the responsibility to protect. The responsibility arose out of the 2005 UN World Summit, and it was heavily supported by the Canadian government of Paul Martin. R2P embodied a global political commitment to end the worst forms of violence and persecution. It sought to narrow the gap between member states' pre-existing obligations under international humanitarian and human rights law and the reality faced by populations at risk of genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. Canada seems to have also forgotten the debacle it faced in evacuating some 30,000 Canadians from the wharves of Beirut in 2006. Back then our government scrambled around for days struggling to find and rent ships to take our citizens to safe countries like Cyprus and Turkey and then back to Canada. Why then is Canada showing up a bit late again? When the fighting intensified, Canada was quick to close our embassy and suspend consular operations, as did other embassies, but now what? Is Canada taking a lead role in talks with other governments on evacuating its citizens or is it just adopting a wait-and-see strategy to see what develops? Many people do not have the luxury of time to wait and see what the government comes up with. Food and water scarcity drives home this point. Additionally, has the Government of Canada considered granting urgent refugee status to non-citizen Sudanese people who have ties with Canadian relatives so that they can escape the fighting? Although, on that front, history has not been kind to our country's ability to rescue people in serious danger. Ask the Afghans who put their lives on the line to assist our Canadian Armed Forces in Afghanistan and who are now still waiting to leave while the Taliban hunts them down. What then? What about the Sudanese? What more could or should Canada be doing? Well, some of my constituents have a few ideas. They are seeking immediate and tangible support for the Sudanese people in their quest to prevent military conflict in their homes. In just a few days of fighting, hundreds of people have died and thousands more have been wounded and displaced. The suffering of innocents will only continue to rise if the fighting continues unchecked. My constituents also rightly point out that the Sudanese people have played no part in this conflict. We have two forces fighting over their ability to rule a country when neither was elected by the people. The Sudanese people's peaceful protests for democracy go ignored and they continue to suffer for it unjustly. Moreover, for the many Canadians stuck in Sudan, they remain in constant fear and live in tremendous peril. Most have been without electricity and water for over a week and are caught in the middle of a violent battleground. Those who have found shelter have run out of essentials such as water, food and medicine. The Canadian government must act immediately to evacuate our citizens. Aside from that, Canada should work with the UN special representative, Volker Perthes, to ensure that the ceasefire is respected by both parties. Canada should commit to delivering food and medical aid through organizations such as the Red Crescent and the UN World Food Programme, which had paused its work in Sudan after two days of fighting. Finally, Canada should also provide emergency immigration measures and support for the Sudanese people who have been caught in the crossfire of the conflict, similar to what the Canadian government endeavoured to provide Ukrainians impacted by war. As a concerned constituent eloquently expressed, “the Sudanese people believe in freedom, peace and justice and peacefully fought for it through non-violent demonstrations. Sudan seemed on the brink of ushering in a democratically elected civilian government. However, those hopes have been dashed by a coup and, more recently, the violence by the Sudanese Army vs. the Rapid Support Force”. In conclusion, the Government of Canada must provide aid to Canadians and Sudanese people on the ground. It is not enough to tell people to shelter in place or look to the route of sponsorship, which could take almost a decade. Delaying further action will be disastrous and deadly, and time is running out.

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Ms. Arielle Kayabaga (London West, Lib.)

Apr/25/23 11:22:56 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for making very important comments on this important debate we are having tonight on supporting Sudanese people in this conflict, as well as bringing Sudanese communities home. I lived in war, so I know how war affects people. It directly affects women and children. Can the member opposite talk about some of the important measures that we need to continue to support in the House, all measures, to make sure we are supporting every single person who is vulnerable, including women and children?

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Mr. Kevin Vuong

Apr/25/23 11:23:28 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, there is a lot that the government points to in the work it has done, as it cites its feminist policy, and that is great. What I really want to zero in on right now, as I am sure my colleague knows, is women and children, who are probably the most vulnerable and most at risk right now in Sudan. However, it is not just those who are attempting those desperate trips to try to escape the violence, it is also Sudan's neighbours, the people of Eritrea, South Sudan, Ethiopia and so on, who themselves do not necessarily have the resources, which is why I focused a lot of my comments on the importance of Canada stepping up, as we are a G7 country and better endowed with the resources to help those who are truly in need, particularly women and children.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)

Apr/25/23 11:24:30 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his work on this important subject. I know he previously served in the military and spoke about the responsibility to protect. I wonder if he can share with the House some more thoughts on how we can give life to this idea of responsibility to protect, because it seems to me that, as we develop these doctrines, we make these promises, these bold ideas about international crimes, responsibility to protect, outlawing genocide and so forth, and we continually see cases of failure to respond to it. It seems that the more doctrines are created, the more we back away as an international community from recognizing crimes when they are happening because they would create an obligation to act. How do we really give life and meaning to the responsibility to protect? What can we concretely do to strengthen its effect?

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Mr. Kevin Vuong

Apr/25/23 11:25:23 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I know my colleague had previously raised the topic of targeted sanctions, from the Wagner Group to, frankly, the individuals who are leading on both sides of the conflict, the people of the Sudanese army and folks in the Rapid Support Forces. Targeting those sanctions is important to ensure that we are really tackling and focusing on the individuals who are driving this violence and not catching any innocents in the crossfire. I know that in Washington, for example, the Americans have already levied sanctions, but this really needs to be a whole of the western world approach, where it is consistent and coherent across all those countries that share our values of democracy.

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Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP)

Apr/25/23 11:26:20 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, like the member, I am extremely concerned about the deteriorating situation in Sudan and the increasing likelihood of civil war. I was in northern Uganda working for the UNHCR in 2010 when a lot was happening with Sudan and South Sudan. UNHCR officials are now preparing for the exodus of around 270,000 people. I am extremely concerned about the lack of communication from the Government of Canada to Canadians on the ground. Canadians are worried about their family members. While Canadian diplomatic staff have been evacuated, many Canadians remain with no safe route out of the country. There seems to be a recurring theme with the government abandoning local staff, first in Ukraine, and now in Sudan. it also abandoned some of the people in Afghanistan who helped our Canadian military. Canada says that it is an international leader, but now we are relying on other countries to evacuate citizens. Could the member speak to how the government needs to explain why this is a recurring issue and how to stop it?

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Mr. Kevin Vuong

Apr/25/23 11:27:40 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague that we have a duty to protect embassy staff. They are individuals who, frankly, have put themselves at risk working alongside our officials in their countries, from Afghanistan to Sudan. To abandon them is wrong. I obviously cannot speak for the government, but I would strongly advocate that it really look at reinstating that duty to protect embassy staff.

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)

Apr/25/23 11:28:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, let us look at this government's track record in dealing with international crises. The government let down the people of Afghanistan and those who helped the Canadian army, such as Afghan interpreters. It let down Ukrainians because it took three months to set up a program. Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada did not have the proper computer system to implement the program. What is it doing in Haiti right now? The government talks like it is some kind of human rights superhero, but when it comes time to act, it turns into Tom Thumb. That is the government's track record. I would like my colleague to show that the government is all about image and is not taking any action.

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Mr. Kevin Vuong

Apr/25/23 11:29:22 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I have to agree with my colleague. The track record is not great. There are people who have served side by side with my colleagues in the Canadian Armed Forces and are now being hunted by the Taliban. Leaving them behind is tragic. It reflects extremely poorly on our country and our ability to honour our international commitments. It is my hope that with respect to Sudan, the current government can change that. I am going to use this opportunity to reiterate some things. We should offer emergency immigration measures and support to Sudanese people caught in the crossfire, as was offered to Ukrainians. As well, we should not wait to grant urgent refugee status to non-citizen Sudanese who have Canadian relatives. We can do that now and quickly.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Apr/25/23 11:30:21 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, while it is always a privilege to stand in this place and to represent the people of Edmonton Strathcona, it is a very sad debate that we are engaging in today. Many members have said this before me, but we are witnessing what looks like the beginning of a civil war in Sudan, a country that has been rocked by violence for many years, a country that is already home to a number of refugees who have tried to flee violence within the region. This is a devastating turn of events. It is extremely concerning to think that this civil war could escalate. It is extremely concerning to think that it could spread outside of the borders of Sudan, that we could be looking at a regional war that would impact more people, that would hurt more people and that would kill more people. I am quite concerned that this could become a proxy war. What we are seeing in Sudan is the Wagner Group playing a key role in arming one of the sides. I have to say the NDP brought forward a motion and asked for this group to be named a terrorist entity. That was accepted unanimously across the House and it has not been done by the Liberal government to this day. What we are seeing is incredibly heartbreaking, and I think all members of this House see that. We are seeing incredible shortages of food, water, medicine and fuel. We know this is becoming more and more acute. We know that at least 450 people have been killed, according to the World Health Organization figures. We know that hospitals and essential services have been paralyzed. We know that there are potentially 270,000 people who are preparing to leave Sudan as refugees. That, on top of the fact that Sudan already has more than one million refugees who have been fleeing conflict. We know there are power outages. We know those power outages have destroyed vaccines, medicines and the coal chains. Canada, in this situation, must do everything we can to help. We must work with allies like the United States to urge a ceasefire, to urge a stop to the violence immediately. We must defend humanitarian law and urge both sides of this conflict to not attack civilians, to ensure that they are not targeting those people who are most vulnerable right now. If we are a country that believes in a feminist foreign policy, that believes in a feminist international assistance policy, we have to step up right now and do what we can to help. We have to do what we can to get Canadians out, to get them to safety. Many members in this place have spoken about this. I will be splitting my time today with the member for Vancouver East, who is a tireless champion for immigration issues and a tireless champion who will be speaking about the ways Canada could help to make sure that Canadians in Sudan could get out. I have spoken already tonight about some of my challenges with that. In 2014, very quietly, something was taken away from our laws, and that was the duty to protect. Prior to 2014, Canada had a duty to protect those staff who worked in our embassies. We had a duty to protect those people who worked with us, that supported us in countries around the world. That was repealed in 2014 by Stephen Harper, but I do not just blame the Conservatives for that. I have raised this multiple times with the minister and the minister has not fixed that. We have a duty to these people, whether we admit it or not, whether the Liberal government admits it or not. I am appalled that we actually left people in Ukraine and left the national staff there, behind and in danger. I am appalled that we left Afghans behind. We left them in danger. I am appalled that we have left Sudanese behind in Sudan. We have left them in danger, because we have not done our duty to protect those individuals. This is one of the things I wanted to speak about most today. What is happening in Sudan is horrendous and there are many things that we need to be able to do, but Canada is not in a good situation to do that work right now. In the budget that we just had recently, there was a 15% decrease in our official development assistance. This was done at a time when the world needs Canada to step up and play a larger role on the world stage, when the world is suffering from a food crisis unlike any we have seen before and when the challenges caused by conflict in Ukraine are rippling around the world. At this moment in time, when Canada should have stepped up and said, “We will be there. We are a wealthy country, and we can do that”, we cut international official development assistance by 15%. It is absolutely shameful. Another thing that we have done is to turn our focus to Ukraine and forget others. Members should not get me wrong: Canada must do everything it can to help the people of Ukraine. However, we have forgotten whole swaths of this planet that we have responsibilities to. We have abdicated our responsibilities to the people in sub-Saharan Africa. Since 2008, the Government of Canada has reduced its impact and its ability to help with conflicts just like this. Therefore, what we are seeing in Sudan is terrible, but we are not equipped to help. We no longer have peacekeepers in the field who can deal with this one. Canada, the country where we used to take such pride in punching above our weight and being the peacekeepers that countries could count on to be there when they needed us, does not even have 100 peacekeepers in the field. Despite the promises the government has made, we are no longer playing that role. We used to have a role that was so important. We were conveners. We were peacekeepers. We engaged in international development. We had the Canadian International Development Agency; it was respected around the world. Now, we do not have that. We have Global Affairs Canada. For those who do not know, that was taking development, diplomacy and trade and putting it all into one place because it was supposed to harmonize it and make it better. However, what happened is that trade trumped all. All of a sudden, trade was the only thing that mattered to the current government rather than any of our moral obligations, the value of diplomacy, playing a role on the world stage or playing a role in a multilateral fashion. I have said this before: When we look at our foreign policy and at the way that Canada interacts with the world, diplomacy and being part of those conversations, development, and trade are all so important. However, do members know what trade is? Trade is the dessert they get when they do the hard work of diplomacy and development. As with any dessert, if all they eat is dessert, they are going to get sick. They are not going to do well. That is where our foreign policy is right now. We focus on trade. We fail to realize that building the relationships that we need to build with people around the world is vital. It is vital because it is the morally right thing to do and we have an obligation to do that. However, it is good for Canadians too. It allows us to develop trade relationships and have relationships with people around the world. I look at what is happening in Sudan, and I am heartbroken because we know how the Sudanese people have suffered already. Women and children in Sudan are going to lose their lives. I am also angry because Canada, which should be able to be there to help, is not. Canada, which should be one of these countries that invest in the world and in making the world a better place, is absent. That makes me very angry.

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)

Apr/25/23 11:40:09 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I really appreciated my colleague's speech, because she seems to have hit the nail on the head. She told us that, in terms of international relations, this government only seems to care about trade these days. In a fantastical, completely insane and almost schizophrenic turn of events, this government sent the Minister of International Development on a diplomatic mission to Qatar, a dictatorship that tramples on human rights, in order to sell arms there. This is the latest star on the report card of this government, which is reaching new heights of hypocrisy in international relations and international development. The only question that comes to mind is the following: Does my colleague have any confidence whatsoever that this government is doing a good job, considering its record since 2015?

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Ms. Heather McPherson

Apr/25/23 11:41:08 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, one of the biggest challenges I have is that in 2015, when the government was elected, we had a Prime Minister who said very clearly that Canada is back; it was sunny ways, with the whole tapping of the chest thing. I believed him because I was not a member of Parliament. I was a member of civil society, and all the things the Prime Minister said I wanted to believe. I wanted to believe the cuts and damage that had been done during the Harper decade were over, that Canada was back and that Canada was going to re-engage in the world and take back our place. I prefer the Conservatives because, frankly, they tell us they are not going to do anything. They tell us they are going to be useless, and that is better than a government that tells us it is going to do something and then does not.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)

Apr/25/23 11:42:06 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure working with the member on certain issues. I think she would agree that we agree sometimes and disagree other times. This is an important topic we are debating tonight. I want to come back to something she raised at the beginning of her speech, which is the Wagner Group and the motion she put before the House regarding it being listed as a terrorist organization. I wonder if she can share a bit more about how she sees the agenda of the Russian government, in Africa with the Wagner Group and in other ways, contributing to destabilization and conflict, and why it is so important that the government follow through on the motion of the House and list the Wagner Group as a terrorist organization, a point we agree on.

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Ms. Heather McPherson

Apr/25/23 11:42:51 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I think this is a massive problem we are not addressing. We are seeing the Wagner Group and Russia infiltrate a whole bunch of countries in sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America. We are seeing China, with its belt and road initiative and other initiatives, doing the exact same thing. While they are making inroads in some of these countries, we are pulling back. I think that dynamic is very dangerous when we look at global dynamics in this multipolar world we are in. If Canada wants to be part of major discussions happening around the world, we cannot turn our backs. There is a reason we did not win the Security Council seat. It is because we made choices about which countries to ignore. We prioritized. How do people think it feels to be someone in a country in sub-Saharan Africa watching millions and millions of dollars of support go to Ukraine, when in their country people are starving to death and do not have access to clean drinking water and there are no vaccines? How do we think people feel when we hoard vaccines to the point that we have to throw them away and they cannot vaccinate people in their countries? We are backing up at the wrong time. We are backing up when we should be moving forward.

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