SoVote

May/4/23 3:50:41 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am not aware of the details of the operations that are apparently still ongoing, but I have great confidence in the RCMP to do its job. The RCMP has been charged by the government and, indeed, all Canadians. The RCMP walks the hall of Parliament. That is a pretty big deal. Only about five years ago, it did not. The RCMP was not even allowed in this building, if we remember correctly. We have great faith in the RCMP and its ability to protect Canadians, and I have no doubt that the RCMP is doing and will do whatever is necessary to combat not just this, but all illegal activity, in particular, as it comes from foreign actors.

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Mr. Luc Desilets (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ)

May/4/23 3:51:33 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I was really pleased to hear our colleague indicate that he supports three of the four points dealing with foreign interference, particularly the idea of expelling diplomats involved in interference. Kudos to him. After the crazy week we have had, considering all the revelations and information we have heard, does he really believe that there was no interference by a Chinese diplomat?

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen

May/4/23 3:52:08 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I did not say that I do not believe that. I did not say that, but I respect the rule of law and the manner in which we take information, assess it and then determine how to act on it. I respect the agencies that are charged with the ability and the requirement to exercise that. It is interesting how the Speaker, at the end of question period, said this was turning into a “nuthouse”. Politicians are not the police. Politicians do not investigate issues. We charge our agencies with the responsibility to do that. and if necessary, they will act on that, but it is certainly not going to come, in my opinion, from one or two reports put out by the Globe and Mail. This is all information. There is a difference between an accusation and evidence, and it is very important for members of the House to wrap their heads around the difference between the two because they are not the same.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

May/4/23 3:53:17 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to put on the record that both my colleague from Kitchener Centre and I will be voting for the motion before the House today, and we would wish for Liberal members do so too. I want to make it very clear that, in voting for the motion before us, I am not saying in any way, shape or form that I do not believe the Prime Minister. Without evidence to the contrary, I absolutely take the Prime Minister at his word that CSIS did not brief him. When I am asked if I trust the RCMP or CSIS, I say that I would be a fool to do so. The RCMP, we know, is the only agency proven to have interfered in a Canadian election and changed the result from a Liberal win to a Conservative win in 2005. We also know that CSIS is not exactly reliable. It allowed trumped-up charges against Maher Arar and continued to defend them past the point that it knew the charges were a lie and that they were covering up for the false arrest, imprisonment and torture of a Canadian citizen. I will never blindly trust any agency. I want civilian oversight all the time, and that is why I support an inquiry into this matter. We need to make sure that we know that we do not have vulnerability as Canadians to any form of interference, whether the state police, CSIS or China.

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen

May/4/23 3:54:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we do have that oversight. It is through NSIRA and NSICOP. We have a committee of parliamentarians that has been specifically given the responsibility to have that oversight. However, when it comes to executing the laws that we have, parliamentarians do not execute laws. We make the laws. We create the laws that we then charge our agencies to deliver. Do we need to have oversight on that? We absolutely do, and that is what we do. We have oversight on what goes on, and we do that through the two organizations I just mentioned: NSIRA and NSICOP.

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Mr. Luc Thériault (Montcalm, BQ)

May/4/23 3:55:34 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I do not want to preach to anyone, but when I look at question period over the past two weeks, when I hear my colleague say that he agrees with expelling diplomats, and considering that we have reached the point where we are talking about CSIS leaking information, I think the Chinese must be laughing at us. It seems to me that this whole mess could have been avoided if the government had done its due diligence. This whole scenario that has been going on for the past two weeks in the House of Commons and which I do not find particularly edifying could have been avoided. Why did the government not make a decision faster, and why do we need a motion to make it happen?

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen

May/4/23 3:56:22 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, that is what we did right after we were elected. We established NSICOP to have that oversight. The member is suggesting, just based on question period alone over the last two weeks, that we should start expelling people. We are not going to expel people based on the questions asked and answers given in the House.

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Ms. Jennifer O'Connell (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Infrastructure and Communities, Lib.)

May/4/23 3:56:52 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member spoke in his speech about the partisan nature of the leader of the official opposition. He talked about when the leader of the official opposition was the democratic reform minister, and when he received briefings about foreign interference, he did nothing. The member spoke about how the leader of the official opposition is refusing to have a national security briefing now. In addition to that, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs also raised the point that the Leader of the Opposition, as minister, did nothing to deal with foreign interference, saying that it was not in their partisan interest to do so. Does the member think that brings confidence to the non-partisan nature that we need to have when it involves foreign interference?

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen

May/4/23 3:57:46 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it does not. It is not about one individual or one political party. It is about the fundamental idea and the fundamental role of democracy in our country. We will all be gone from here one day, but we have a responsibility to make sure that we protect democracy while we are here so that it can benefit generations of politicians and Canadians to come in the future. When we start making comments, just like the Leader of the Opposition did when he said that he was not interested because it had nothing to do with the Conservatives' political party, it is just completely offside. It is a complete misunderstanding of why democracy is so important to uphold and protect. It is not for any one individual but for the collective of all of us.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

May/4/23 3:58:51 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, what I do not understand about this member's speech and the actions of the government is that we do have this information now. This information should have gone to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills sooner, certainly, but we have this information now. Why on earth would the government not expel the diplomat responsible for this? It is so easy to do. It does not even require the government to provide a reason. It can just do it, so why will it not do it?

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen

May/4/23 3:59:26 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, what we have are accusations and information. CSIS gathers that information, and its officials determine at what point it reaches a certain threshold to involve and advise different levels of government. They advise what to do in certain circumstances based on meeting or not meeting various thresholds. If we have a problem with that, then our job as lawmakers is to change the law to make modifications, just as the Prime Minister did when he learned about this. The Prime Minister was shocked about it. He said that, from now on, he wants to know about anything that has to do with any MP.

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Hon. Michael Chong (Wellington—Halton Hills, CPC)

May/4/23 4:00:16 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is not new information that the PRC is targeting the families of Canadians in the PRC to coerce and intimidate Canadians here on Canadian soil. That is not new information. We have known for years that the PRC uses these coercive tactics, in democracies like Canada, to intimidate citizens in these democracies into silence or into other actions in order to mould the debate in democracies, in order to threaten democracies and in order to get their version of an authoritarian world promulgated around the world. That is not new. We have known this for years, through investigative reports by journalists at reputable publications, through committees of the House, both in the current Parliament and in the previous Parliament, and through reports of government agencies and services. We have known about this for years, and not just in Canada. We have known about this taking place in other democracies. We have known, for example, that Canadians here in Canada who are advocating for democracy and civil rights in Hong Kong, who are advocating for free expression, for the freedom to associate and for freedom of the press have been targeted by the PRC, and that their families back home have been threatened. We have known that those advocating here in Canada for the human rights of Uyghurs, Tibetans and other minorities in the People's Republic of China have had their families in the PRC threatened by the PRC. What is new is that, two years ago, the government did nothing when it came to its attention that a diplomat working in Canada, with the approval of the Canadian government, was targeting me and other members of the House in an attempt to change the course of the debate, to attempt to intimidate MPs into voting a certain way on the floor of the House. That is what is new here. That is the issue here. Madam Speaker, I would like to split my time with the opposition whip. That is the new information at play here. When the government knew, it did nothing. It was not until the information became public several days ago that the government started to treat this seriously. That is shocking. What else is going on that is threatening the national security of this country that is threatening the safety and security of Canadians here on Canadian soil that we do not know about and that the government is doing nothing about? The Prime Minister and the public safety minister say they did not know until this past Monday that a PRC diplomat was targeting me and other members of the House. That is astounding. That is unbelievable. That should shake everyone in Ottawa to the core. The Prime Minister is responsible for the machinery of government. I want to quote from “Open and Accountable Government”, which says that “the Prime Minister forms a team, decides on the process for collective decision making, and builds and adapts the machinery of government in which the team will operate.” The Prime Minister is responsible for the machinery of government. The Prime Minister is also responsible for “the broad organization and structure of the government.” I would like to quote again from “Open and Accountable Government”, which is a document of the Privy Council Office: The Prime Minister determines the broad organization and structure of the government in order to meet its objectives. The Prime Minister is responsible for allocating Ministers’ portfolios, establishing their mandates, clarifying the relationships among them and identifying the priorities for their portfolios through mandate letters. The Prime Minister’s approval is required for the creation of new institutions and the elimination of existing organizations, some of which may also be subject to parliamentary decisions. Any proposals made by Ministers for significant organizational change or for altering their own mandates or those of other Ministers must first be approved by the Prime Minister. Here is the most astounding part: The Prime Minister is responsible for national security. I will quote from “Open and Accountable Government”, which says, “As head of government, the Prime Minister has special responsibilities for national security, federal-provincial-territorial relations and the conduct of international [relations].” The Prime Minister is responsible not only for the machinery of government, how information flows and how the Canadian Security Intelligence Service transmits information to the other parts of the Government of Canada. He is responsible not only for the broad organizational structure of the government. The Prime Minister is also responsible for national security. For him to be the head of a government he has set up in such a way that he does not even know what national security threats are being directed towards members of the House and their families is a complete abdication of his responsibility It really calls into question how safe and secure we are in this country. We know that the Prime Minister privately told NATO officials that Canada was never going to meet its 2% commitment. Despite the war in Ukraine having begun over a year ago, Canada's defence spending remains stuck at 1.3%, well below the Wales Summit Declaration commitment made in 2014. Despite the threats that we have been facing in the form of foreign interference threat activities, nothing has been done. We have not seen a single diplomat expelled. We have not seen the introduction of a foreign agents registry. We have not had a single prosecution that has led to an arrest of individuals in this country who are intimidating and coercing Canadians here on Canadian soil on the part of a foreign government. We have had no action from the government. Other countries have taken action. In recent weeks, we have heard about the FBI arresting individuals in the United States for setting up illegal police stations. One of those individuals happens to be the same individual who helped set up an illegal police station here in Canada. We have had other democratic allies expel diplomats for coercive and clandestine behaviour. In fact, Germany just expelled dozens of diplomats of the Russian Federation in order to protect its citizens, because those diplomats were engaged in subversive activities. Since the war began in Ukraine, over 400 Russian diplomats have been expelled by American and European governments. Not one has been expelled from Canada. Not one diplomat from the People's Republic of China has been expelled for their intimidation and coercion here on Canadian soil. This is happening not just to me and to other members of the House. This foreign interference is also happening to Canadians across the land who suffer in silence, as their government cannot even be bothered to learn about national security threats that PRC diplomats are conducting across the land. It is absolutely, gobsmackingly astounding that the Prime Minister did not know about what was going on. What else does the Prime Minister not know concerning what is going on with the safety and security of this country? He clearly does not care about properly funding our Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. Now, it is quite clear he does not care about learning about serious national security threats to the members of the House and their families and the threats that are being presented to Canadians across the land. I close by saying that thousands of Canadians across this land suffer in silence, and have been suffering in silence for years, because their families are being intimidated by authoritarian states back home, whether it is in the People's Republic of China, the Islamic Republic of Iran or other authoritarian states. People have been suffering in silence, and the government has not even had the interest to follow what is going on with these threat activities. The Prime Minister did not know and the public safety minister did not know, because they did not care to set up the machinery of government, the broad organizational structure, in order to ensure that they did know so they could take action to protect Canadians.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

May/4/23 4:10:43 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, as the government— An hon. member: You had better open with an apology, Kevin.

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

May/4/23 4:10:48 p.m.
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Can we have some order, please? The hon. parliamentary secretary has the floor.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux

May/4/23 4:10:52 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, as the government has recognized and said, an offence on one member of Parliament is an offence on all members of Parliament. We should all be concerned. It is one of the reasons we have seen literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of government investment in places like the Board of Internal Economy to ensure that MPs have things such as panic buttons and cameras around homes. We have seen all sorts of actions, such as legislative initiatives, to deal with the issue of election interference and foreign interference. At the end of the day, I would suggest to the member that, when we take a look at the— An hon. member: Apologize.

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

May/4/23 4:11:45 p.m.
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Can we let the hon. member ask his question without interruptions, please? An hon. member: After he apologizes. The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès): Can we let the hon. member ask his question? The Speaker made a ruling, and we will wait until the Speaker comes back to the House. The hon. parliamentary secretary.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux

May/4/23 4:12:01 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, to imply in any way that the Prime Minister did nothing, when the Conservatives know, first-hand, that he found out earlier this week, is highly irresponsible. If the member believes that all members are honourable members, would he not agree that the Prime Minister found out for the first time this week?

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Hon. Michael Chong

May/4/23 4:12:33 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the Prime Minister is responsible for ensuring that he sets up the machinery of government and the broad organizational structure of the government to ensure that he is informed about national security issues. The Prime Minister is responsible for the government's relationship to this place, Parliament. The fact that the Prime Minister set things up in such a way that he did not know is shocking. It is like the head of a government of a G7 country saying to the chief of the defence staff for the armed forces that he does not actually want to know if there is an intrusion into our airspace. It is like saying, “I don't want to know when that happens; don't bother telling me.” That is essentially what has happened here, with the Prime Minister setting things up in such a way that he was not informed about these things.

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Mr. René Villemure (Trois-Rivières, BQ)

May/4/23 4:13:35 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my heart goes out to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills. I would like to ask him this. The government's blunders are piling up. Just consider the Trudeau Foundation, the appointment of an independent rapporteur who is not independent, or the failure to notify the member in a case like this or to formally crack down on foreign interference. Is this not the very essence of what it means to undermine public trust in the government?

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Hon. Michael Chong

May/4/23 4:14:02 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his very important question. It is beyond belief that the Prime Minister would structure the government in a way that prevents the Prime Minister from knowing what is going on with national security. It is absolutely incredible that the Prime Minister set things up this way. It really shakes me to the core, and should shake Canadians to the core, that, clearly, the national security of this country is not a concern of the Prime Minister or the government.

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