SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 199 - May/17/23

Mr. Larry Maguire (Brandon—Souris, CPC)

May/17/23 11:35:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I just want to acknowledge my colleague's concern with some of the items in this bill. I know he is concerned about the 32% increase in violent crime and gang-related murders, which have doubled. I am optimistic that he will sleep on this tonight and take a look at it, and that his comments are genuine. He may be able to see improvements, but I do not know if he can put amendments forward to do that at this stage. I would like him to comment on what I mentioned earlier: the increase in violent crimes and gang-related murders. Many in the industry are saying that this bill is not going to be the answer to solving and lowering those crime rates. Can he expand on that?

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Mr. Kody Blois

May/17/23 11:36:54 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I always appreciate the hon. member's interventions. He is a reasonable colleague and we need more level-headedness in this place. I will say two things. I agree that this legislation, this proposal alone, is not going to solve gun violence. It is not going to solve violence in our communities. Solving it is going to take a more nuanced approach than that. It is going to take additional measures at the border, which the government has been working on and needs to continue to do. It is going to take investment in mental health. It is going to take investment in communal programs and social initiatives to make sure that individuals who might be lured into a life of crime have the opportunity to be engaged. I would agree with him that this bill alone does not solve that issue. I know he may have certain challenges about the provisions in the bill. There is some contention, and I have wrestled with that tonight. On the amendments, I want to register something, as I never had the chance to do it during my remarks. As I went through each of the amendments that were brought forward, I was concerned when the Conservative Party tried to move an amendment today that would have walked back the exemption on Olympic sport shooters. It was moved by the member for Kildonan—St. Paul. The Conservatives voted for it. I do not know why they voted for it, because that would have taken away the small exemption that does exist for sport shooting now, which I think should be expanded. Hopefully, some of the Conservatives can address that in their comments later this evening.

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Initiatives

Mr. Corey Tochor (Saskatoon—University, CPC)

May/17/23 11:38:17 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-5

Mr. Speaker, hunting season is over. That is what a lot of Canadians are hearing tonight. I am trying to give them comfort and understanding of what has transpired in the months on this bill and why the Liberals, supported by the NDP, are going after Grandpa Joe's hunting gun. This is one of the most frustrating parts of the job, of being a member of Parliament. It is almost midnight. There is no reason for us to be up this late. We were up last night debating this as well. It is the mismanagement and incompetence of the Liberal government, which is why we are having to debate this late in the evening. There are real problems with the bill and it is just ramming it through. I will try to walk us through why and some of the ways that it is going after Grandpa Joe's hunting rifles. It is really because, eight years ago, when the Prime Minister got to Ottawa, he started changing things within our country, changing some of the fundamental principles of our justice system. The corresponding result was an increase in violent crimes of 32%. My heart goes out to family members who have lost a loved one due to violence. We know that gang-related murders have doubled under the watch of the Prime Minister. Instead of going after real criminals, he is going after Grandpa Joe. Grandpa Joe might be in Newfoundland. He has enjoyed hunting moose for generations and is fearful of the next generation's inability to carry on a very important part of our heritage and our traditions in this country, because of the changes. Common sense would dictate that, if we have a problem, we could ask where the problem is coming from. Once one has identified where it was coming from, that is where one should put one's efforts into stopping it, and we all want to stop violent criminals. I believe everyone, at heart, when they say they would like to stop the crime rates that continue to increase. This bill would do nothing for that because 90% of all firearms-related crimes are done with an illegal firearm. Criminals do not follow the law. We know this. We know that the statistics out of British Columbia earlier this year showed that 40 criminals have been arrested 6,000 times. It is the catch-and-release bail policies that have been introduced by the government over the last eight years, which are driving this up. We catch and release. We catch and release. Go out, commit a violent crime, get arrested and get released. That is the policy that has driven this spike in violent crime, up 32%, under the Prime Minister's watch. Where does he decide to spend millions, if not billions, of dollars? Going after Grandpa Joe's firearms. It is wrong. Instead of going after illegal gun smugglers and criminals, they are going after the hunting rifles and shotguns of law-abiding farmers, hunters and indigenous people. That is where they are going to be spending the money. I do want to remind everyone that I will be splitting my time with the member for Fundy Royal. While I have the floor, I just want to walk through the common-sense understanding of the problem and what we can do to fix it. The Liberals have, in every way possible, made it easier for these criminals. There used to be minimum sentences. In Bill C-5, they repealed mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes. Why would they do that? We know these people cannot help themselves. These individuals need to be behind bars and in programs to straighten out their lives, but instead, they are getting lighter sentences because of Bill C-5. There are no minimums. The Liberals like to make a lot of noise about how they are going to increase the maximums. There are no judges in Canada who hand out maximums anymore. That is the higher threshold that should be there, but they have bumped it up to a point where it does not have an impact. We are talking about criminals who are getting firearms across the border and, for the most part, committing the crimes that are concerning families in some of our larger cities. My heart goes out to them because losing a loved one for no reason is a heinous thing to think about. A lot of times these are senseless, unprovoked crimes using firearms coming over from the United States. We have a government that will not even shut down the illegal crossing of people, let alone firearms. A much more common-sense approach to deal with this problem would be to go after the individuals who are committing the crimes and the firearms that enable those crimes, 90% of which are coming here illegally, but with all these laws on the books, the only ones who are going to be affected are the law-abiding hunters and indigenous people of this land.

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Mr. Chris Bittle

May/17/23 11:45:05 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, on a point of order, was the point that, if criminals do not follow laws, we should therefore not have laws? That aside, the hon. member was sitting while he is speaking. Our traditions are that we stand when we address the House. I do not know what the rules are with respect to sitting down—

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

May/17/23 11:45:24 p.m.
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Agreed. It is the rule to stand while we speak in the House, which is why we say, “While I stand in the House”. The hon. member for Saskatoon—University.

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Mr. Corey Tochor

May/17/23 11:45:38 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for pointing out how common-sense has left this place. We are almost at midnight. I am leaning on my desk. The member comes rushing down here to raise a point of order that members cannot lean on their desk at a quarter to midnight because they could potentially be sitting. This is the lack of common sense that usually comes from the member and his party.

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Mr. Chris Bittle

May/17/23 11:46:07 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, again, on a point of order, it is bizarre that the hon. member is talking about following the rules, but said the rules do not apply in the last 15 minutes while the House is sitting. I find that surprising, so I was just wondering—

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

May/17/23 11:46:19 p.m.
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We are getting into debate now, so I would ask the hon. member to conclude his speech. The hon. member for Saskatoon—University has the floor.

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Mr. Corey Tochor

May/17/23 11:46:28 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have the floor, and I am standing. I think that highlights the Liberal philosophy quite well. The common sense is lacking. The common people of this country know what this bill does. This bill goes after hunting rifles that have been used safely across Canada. This is a frustration of Canadians. I am sure they are calling other members' offices. They are calling my office. I am meeting with people. Conservatives do not support the confiscation of other people's property. This is what this bill would ultimately do. There is the Liberal firearms advisory committee that would do what the Liberals wanted to do with earlier amendments. It is clear that this panel would do the bidding of the Liberal government. We have seen this time after time. The Liberals try to do things through the front door, and if that does not work, they go through the back door. This is how they are bringing it in. The Liberals are saying there are no firearms that would be banned by this legislation. However, it would appoint the Liberal firearms advisory committee. Who appoints it? It is the order in council. I wonder who they might put on that. Would that be a panel of experts who view the world how the Liberals view it? I wonder. A special rapporteur would figure this out, I am sure. There is a whole bunch of things that could be improved in this bill. Obviously, with our track record in this country on violent crimes, we are on the wrong path. We need to fix the justice system. We need to have jail not bail. We need to have common-sense rules that govern our country. We will never have that until we defeat the Liberal-NDP coalition and get common sense back in this country. I am fearful of the consequences if we continue down this path with individuals who pretend to have the best interests of the country at heart, but when flawed legislation such as this is brought forward, it brings up questions. If Liberals really want to lower crime, why are they going after Grandpa Joe's hunting rifle? There is no good answer. This is virtue signalling from the Liberals that they are somehow going to tackle violent crime by going after Grandpa Joe. We know that it will not work. What is really frustrating is that we need sensible measures that get the criminals off the streets.

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Mr. Alistair MacGregor (Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, NDP)

May/17/23 11:49:27 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-21

Madam Speaker, the Conservatives are going off on a completely ridiculous tangent right now. My hon. colleague talked about the firearms advisory committee. I would ask him to find where, in Bill C-21, that is mentioned. I will give him a hint. It is not there. He should take a look at the public safety website because he would see that the firearms advisory committee is a body that already exists. At the risk of repeating myself for the nth time today and yesterday, I would challenge my hon. colleague to name one rifle or one shotgun that is in this bill that would be prohibited. I ask the member to give me one model, unlike all of his colleagues before him.

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Mr. Corey Tochor

May/17/23 11:50:16 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, this is the NDP. Its members just trust the Liberals. If people who are watching at home want a Liberal MP, then could vote NDP and get the same thing. The NDP are just going to prop up the Liberals. They are asking, “What firearms will the committee ban?” We know in the amendments they wanted the Winchester model 100, Winchester model 1910, Ruger Deerfield carbine, Remington 740, Remington 7400 and the Remington model 4. This is just a small fraction of what the Liberals have wanted to ban. We know that is their intent because we have seen the amendments they slipped up on. They thought they could get something through on an amendment. We know exactly what they are going to ban, and they would ban them in the months to come.

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Mr. Michael Coteau (Don Valley East, Lib.)

May/17/23 11:51:05 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the hon. member mentioned that there was 40 people arrested 6,000 times. I googled it. According to the Vancouver Sun, it was actually 40 people who had 6,300 incidents, and most of these people are people with mental health and substance abuse challenges. These are not arrests. These are incidents. Could the member please correct the record?

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Mr. Corey Tochor

May/17/23 11:51:30 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, this is the common-sense Liberal. They say that these were not arrests; these were just incidents. They were individuals who were not following the law, and they will never follow the law until we get the bail and jail systems figured out. We need more jail, not bail, and as people are put in jail, they will not be committing crimes. This is the common-sense approach that needs to be done. We need to identify who is committing the crimes and fix the system so that they get the help they need, and if these individuals are having mental health troubles, I will bet they are addiction-related. What happened in British Columbia? It just legalized hard-core drugs. Those drugs lead to addictions, which lead to more criminal activity.

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Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC)

May/17/23 11:52:26 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I find it so troubling that the coalition of the Liberals and the NDP seems to be bent on bringing American-style politics into the conversation, yet what I find really interesting is that they actually invited a former presidential candidate who supports the second amendment in the United States. They say one thing but do another on so many fronts. Could the member for Saskatoon—University highlight other examples of the hypocrisy we see in the Liberals, as well as the NDP?

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Mr. Corey Tochor

May/17/23 11:53:22 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the list of hypocritical things I have witnessed since getting out here is too long to mention in one sitting. I could probably do a 20-minute speech with rebuttals on how hypocritical they are. The different— Some hon. members: Oh, oh! Mr. Corey Tochor: Now they heckle me, Madam Speaker. An hon. member: We've been heckling the whole time. Mr. Corey Tochor: Madam Speaker, I think the most hypocritical thing I have seen with the Liberals is in the bill before us, where they target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the criminals who are committing the crimes. They cry for the victims, and we should all cry for families when they have faced criminal activities that have robbed them of their loved ones. However, we should understand that their efforts are going after the wrong people out there. Grandpa Joe's firearm is not what is shooting up downtown Vancouver and Toronto.

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Hon. Rob Moore (Fundy Royal, CPC)

May/17/23 11:54:35 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-5 Bill C-21

Madam Speaker, it is an honour to close out debate this evening on Bill C-21, and it is an honour, as always, to stand in this House and represent the constituents from the great riding of Fundy Royal who elected me. Many of those constituents enjoy hunting, farming and sport shooting and maybe have inherited a firearm from a relative. Hunting in my riding certainly is something many people like to partake in and enjoy. What is the problem we are trying to go after? It is gun violence. What the facts tell us is that 80% of the firearms used in violent crime are illegal. What are some of the figures? Violent crime is up 32% in Canada in the last eight years. Gang-related violent crime, the stuff Canadians are talking about, seeing in the news and hearing about in their local newspaper, is up almost 100% in the last eight years. What about crimes that are committed with firearms? Eighty per cent of the firearms used in violent crime are obtained illegally. We have an illegal firearms problem in Canada. What is the solution when we have an illegal firearms problem? We should go after the illegal firearms. The last thing we should do is spend valuable resources going after law-abiding, licensed firearms owners in this country. However, we should not be surprised that this is the approach the government took. We have to remember this is the same Liberal government that brought in Bill C-68, or the long gun registry, and that spent, according to the Auditor General, over $1 billion registering the firearms of law-abiding Canadians while having no impact on crime. It is the same government that brought in Bill C-5. What did Bill C-5 do? I mentioned that we have a problem with illegal firearms. Bill C-5, which was introduced and passed under the current government, repealed mandatory prison penalties for many firearms offences. They include robbery with a firearm, extortion with a firearm and weapons trafficking. These are the types of offences that Canadians would expect someone convicted to go to jail for. Unfortunately, Bill C-5 removed mandatary jail sentences for those crimes, so we are not going after the illegal guns and we are not going after the criminals. The figures should get the attention of all members, no matter what side of the aisle they are on. In Toronto alone, one half of murder suspects this year are out on some type of release. In 17 of 44 homicides in Toronto last year, the individual was out on bail. We have a major problem in this country when it comes to gang-related violence and firearms violence with the revolving door, the catch-and-release, of our bail system. The government had an opportunity with this bill to tackle some of those things. Instead, what it did is went after everyday, law-abiding Canadians, the type of Canadians I represent in my riding of Fundy Royal. As parliamentarians, we need to take the issues that confront us in this country seriously. This bill does not do that. The government showed its hand when it brought it an amendment that would have banned all kinds of hunting rifles, rifles that have been in families for generations. These are not the problem. Law-abiding Canadians are not the problem. Licensed firearms owners are not the problem. Spending billions of dollars of taxpayers' money to buy back and confiscate firearms from law-abiding citizens is not the solution. When this bill is fully implemented, Canadians will not be one bit safer. Until we have the courage to tackle the revolving door of catch-and-release bail and until we have the courage to say that those who do serious crimes are going to get a jail sentence, we will continue to have these problems in Canada. We need to leave law-abiding people alone and go after the bad guys, and that is what the Conservatives will do.

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

May/17/23 11:59:41 p.m.
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It being 11:59 p.m., pursuant to order made on Tuesday, May 9, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the third reading stage of the bill now before the House. The question is on the amendment. If a member of a recognized party present in the House wishes that the amendment be carried or carried on division or wishes to request a recorded division, I would invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.

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Mr. Chris Bittle

May/18/23 12:01:14 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, we request a recorded division.

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

May/18/23 12:01:18 a.m.
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Pursuant to order made on Thursday, June 23, 2022, the division on the amendment stands deferred until Thursday, May 18, at the expiry of the time provided for Oral Questions. It being 12:01 a.m., the House stands adjourned until later this day at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 21(1). (The House adjourned at 12:01 a.m.)

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