SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 232 - Oct/16/23

Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Oct/16/23 11:10:52 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I work with my colleague on the foreign affairs committee. On October 14, the president of UNICEF, Catherine Russell, said, “The situation for children in Gaza is catastrophic, with hundreds of children reportedly killed. UNICEF calls for an immediate ceasefire, compliance with the rules of war and humanitarian access. All children, everywhere, must be protected at all times.” Would the member agree that a ceasefire is in the best interests of the children in Palestine right now?

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Mr. Ali Ehsassi

Oct/16/23 11:11:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, yes, I do agree with the member. As we watch the situation unfold, we should all be concerned about the fact that Palestinians within Gaza are going through a very difficult time. That is precisely why many Canadians here are concerned. We should remind our good friends in Israel to make sure that they are proceeding with dismantling Hamas in a fashion which respects the rules of humanitarian law, minimizes casualties and provides room for assistance to be shepherded into Gaza.

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Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ)

Oct/16/23 11:12:24 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, there is only one way for me to start my intervention tonight, and that is by taking a moment to reflect on the victims of the violence over the last few days. I am talking about both Israeli and Palestinian victims, on Israeli soil and Palestinian soil and elsewhere in the world. I will come back to that second aspect. Alongside my colleagues in the House who have spoken with one voice, I, too, send my condolences to all those who have lost a loved one in the violence. My thoughts go out to those who have been kidnapped and injured, and to all those who still fear for their lives. Yes, it has been said many times already, but it cannot be said too often. Similarly, everyone in the House has stressed the importance of condemning the actions of Hamas. Again, it bears repeating. Again, it cannot be overstated. Hamas is a terrorist entity. Canada has designated it as such, and the Bloc Québécois supports that designation. Indiscriminate attacks against Israeli civilians, women, men, the elderly, children and babies, are in no way justifiable. From the perspective of a Parliament that is speaking with one voice, I commend the leader of the Bloc Québécois for taking the initiative to ask for periodic meetings between the leaders of the different parties in the House so that they can ensure that the different political entities' messaging is as aligned as possible and that the current conflict does not become a source of partisan polarization. Speaking of messaging, I admit that one of my biggest fears right now about what is going on in Israel is that the positions taken by various members will be polarizing. I hope that, here in the House, we will do our best to avoid taking a black-and-white view of the conflict. On the contrary, I hope that we will all be able to have a nuanced discussion. Again, I commend all parliamentarians who spoke this evening. They all denounced the fact that there are civilian victims on both sides. They all denounced the actions of Hamas, and they all called for a humanitarian corridor to be established in order to avoid causing more civilian casualties. Listening to this evening's speeches, we could sense the members' genuine empathy for all those who are suffering because of this conflict, regardless of their origins or their religion. This all-encompassing, unconditional empathy can only come from a nuanced discourse, which I hope will help us set an example for the public and put a stop to demonstrations of hatred directed against either group. Unfortunately, we have seen such acts in France, and in the United States, for example, where a six-year-old child was just murdered. We saw it again earlier today in Belgium. They are all collateral victims of the polarization of the situation. The onus is on every single one of us to condemn the hatred that exists outside Israeli and Palestinian territory. We must not fan the flames. There was a Radio-Canada article this week with the headline Sale temps pour les pacifistes, hard times for pacifists. It recounted stories of long-standing friendships, unlikely friendships between Israelis and Palestinians living in Quebec, friendships driven by the desire to see the two nations one day live in peace. Unfortunately, these friendships are currently being put to the test. Clearly, it is because of the situation on the ground in Israel and Palestine, but it is also because of the hateful demonstrations happening elsewhere in the world that deserve condemnation. The longer the situation in Gaza drags on, the more civilians will lose their lives, and the more I fear that polarization will get worse, bringing even more hatred in its wake. We all know that it is futile to make any demands of Hamas. A terrorist organization that uses its own people as a human shield has no regard for civilian lives. It has committed unspeakable massacres. War may be an ugly thing, but it has rules, and Hamas has not complied with any of them. Its attack in no way resembled a military intervention. It was pure carnage, a wanton act of brutality calculated to sow terror. That is why, this evening, members are primarily addressing their requests to the Israeli government, urging it to set up a humanitarian corridor. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said earlier this week that Israel has the right—indeed it has the obligation—to defend itself against these attacks from Hamas and to try to do what it can to make sure that this never happens again, but he added that the way Israel does this matters. As democracies, we are held to higher standards. Tonight, the Israeli government is being called upon to respect the rules of international humanitarian law, as any democracy must do. For one thing, the protection of civilian lives is obviously at stake. If nothing is done in the short term, the complete siege of Gaza with no possibility of delivering aid will inevitably result in more loss of life. Because of the blockade, electricity cannot be produced at Gaza's only power station, which has cut the supply of drinking water. Forced to drink sea water, Gazans will see their mortality rate rise sharply. Without a humanitarian corridor, medical personnel no longer have access to medical equipment to treat the wounded, and the wounded no longer have access to pain medication to ease their suffering. Even though breaks in the bombardments are announced on stretches of roads intended to evacuate civilians, the absence of telephone and Internet networks in the Gaza Strip means that people are not necessarily notified in time for these breaks, or may not be notified at all. It is also unlikely that the people of Gaza can travel the required distances within the allotted time. Children and seniors cannot travel very quickly, and injured people who are hospitalized and babies in incubators, for example, cannot easily be moved. Adding to these difficulties is the fact that Hamas is holding back the people of Gaza and preventing them from leaving, once again using them as hostages and human shields. The Israeli government cannot ignore these factors when considering its respect for international humanitarian law. Also, if the Government of Israel refuses to set up a corridor, I am concerned that the resulting losses will serve to breed more hate. As it has been mentioned, Hamas must be eradicated from Gaza because, otherwise, there will never be any political peace in the region and it will be impossible to negotiate a two-state solution. It is one thing to wipe out Hamas's military capability, ensure that its leaders are eliminated and annihilate its power for physical destruction, which is the objective announced by the Government of Israel, but we also need to ensure that the very idea of Hamas, its disembodied form, is eradicated. If civilian casualties continue to multiply in Palestinian territory, that will only fuel the beast. Hamas, although it cares nothing for civilian life, could fuel the narrative of non-compliance with international humanitarian law in order to breed hate for Israel. It would not be the first time. We might then fear that October 7 was just the beginning or that the unfortunately all-too-familiar cycle will start all over again in four or five years. Israel has just experienced a tragedy of immeasurable proportions. I cannot even begin to imagine the pain. Tonight, for the sake of the civilian lives that may yet be spared and the possibility that the region may one day live in peace, Canadian parliamentarians are calling on the Israeli government to abide by international law and establish a humanitarian corridor.

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Mr. Mike Morrice (Kitchener Centre, GP)

Oct/16/23 11:21:17 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by thanking my colleague from Saint-Jean for her nuanced speech and her empathy. That is so important at times like these. My question is about the fact that another young Palestinian dies every fifteen minutes. When the member thinks about that, how appropriate does she think it is to call for a ceasefire? Should it happen now, or at some other time in the future?

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Ms. Christine Normandin

Oct/16/23 11:22:09 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I think that any measures that will spare civilian lives must be considered and, ideally, implemented by Israel, because Hamas cannot be expected to do so. I nevertheless remain realistic. If we want to prevent this from happening again in the future, if we want to entertain the prospect of peace, Hamas also must be eliminated. If there were some way to do this without any loss of human life, it would have been done by now. That is why I am calling for Israel to conduct the strictest possible analysis of everything that can be done to minimize civilian casualties in accordance with humanitarian law.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Oct/16/23 11:22:58 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her intervention in the House today. I am sorry, but I am not going to speak in French. It is a very late night and the topic is very difficult for me. One of the things that I have been thinking about is that today we have been talking about how Hamas needs to be defeated. I know that the member is on the defence committee. We have babies in incubators in Gaza. We have doctors who refuse to leave those babies because, obviously, the children are trapped there, and they know they may die. The people who are most able likely to leave the territory are in fact members of Hamas, the very terrorists we should be trying to target. The people least able to leave Gaza right now are the elderly, the infirm, the children, the babies and people in the hospital. I am struggling to understand why anyone in this place thinks that bombing Gaza right now would not cause more harm to those people than to the terrorists.

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Ms. Christine Normandin

Oct/16/23 11:24:32 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Edmonton Strathcona for her question and for her always rousing pleas on behalf of civilians and all those who are in difficult situations, who are experiencing war. I know she cares a lot about that, and I thank her for her work in that regard. I do not claim to have an answer for her, unfortunately, and I think that it would be wrong for anyone, particularly any outsider, to claim that they have an answer to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which did not start just a few days ago but has been going on for a long time now. In this context, I cannot imagine, as an outsider myself, coming in and imposing a solution. That is why I was careful not to do so in my speech. I was careful not to impose a solution but to instead suggest limits for a government. I want to make the distinction here between the Government of Israel and the people of Israel because, right now, as we know, the government is more right-wing than it has ever been. We can hope that, in the near future, both Hamas and the Government of Israel will have to make changes. In that context, I was careful not to suggest a solution. I think it would be presumptuous on my part to do so. Instead, I chose to make suggestions that would set limits on the actions taken by Israel. What we are asking Israel to do is to minimize as much as possible anything that could lead to the loss of civilian life. If that involves a ceasefire, then all the better. I hope that the analysis will be done because I would like to believe that Israel, unlike Hamas, takes absolutely no pleasure in killing innocent civilians. That is why I am not responding directly to my colleague's question. I am sad to do so because, personally, I was hoping for a ceasefire. However, I am not in a position to impose a solution to a very complex conflict.

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Mr. Joël Lightbound (Louis-Hébert, Lib.)

Oct/16/23 11:26:52 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I too want to thank my colleague for her nuanced speech, nuance that is sorely lacking when we look at the state of public discourse on this unspeakable strategy that has unfolded in the Middle East since October 7. I just want to make a few comments before asking my question. I think that my colleague is exactly right when she says that we must eliminate Hamas, of which far too many Israelis and Palestinians are victims. They have been stuck with this terrorist group for 17 years now without any opportunity to make a choice. The Palestinians are paying the price for this terrorist group, Hamas. I also believe that she is exactly right when she says, in her response, that Israel has a heavy responsibility with respect to the methods it resorts to and that it must also respect international humanitarian law. We see that with 3,000 victims in Gaza and more than 1,000 Israeli victims: Violence breeds violence. I think we need to be careful to ensure that the actions that are taken do not further widen the gap that has been widening for decades. I have a question for her. I will echo what Jean‑François Lépine said on the show Tout le monde en parle on Sunday evening. He said that if there is one thing that has come out of what is happening in Israel and Gaza, it is that the status quo cannot work. There needs to be a two-state solution, two viable states. Does my colleague agree with that statement?

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Ms. Christine Normandin

Oct/16/23 11:28:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the short answer is yes. From the outside, the two-state solution is the one I see as the best, but, once again, this is with all the nuance and reserve one must have when perceiving the conflict from the outside. As has been said several times this evening, the two-state solution is not possible as long as Hamas still exists, hence the importance of eliminating Hamas. To build on a point from the previous question, one of the fears associated with an immediate ceasefire, for example, is that the problem will simply be put off until later. If steps are not taken to eliminate Hamas and ensure that there is fertile ground for political negotiations, which cannot happen with Hamas, human lives may be saved in the short term, but the body count could be even higher in the long term. This is a perfect example of a catch-22. There is no ideal solution to the current conflict. If there were one that would eliminate Hamas while preserving all human lives, it would already have been implemented. I feel a bit pessimistic with that answer, but at the same time I am perhaps somewhat realistic as well. Unfortunately, realism cannot go by the wayside when we are looking at situations such as this one here tonight.

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Mr. Mike Morrice (Kitchener Centre, GP)

Oct/16/23 11:30:03 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, tonight, several of our Jewish and Muslim colleagues have shared their concerns about the rise in anti-Semitism and Islamophobia here at home over the past week. What does the member for Saint-Jean think about that? Can she share her thoughts on what the Government of Canada can do to address this reality?

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Ms. Christine Normandin

Oct/16/23 11:30:51 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned a little bit in my speech, I think that two of the actions that can be taken have already been taken by parliamentarians. The purpose of the question was to determine what parliamentarians can do. On the one hand, we must condemn the situation, which we have done unanimously. We must condemn the hateful demonstrations that occurred in various places and the individual hateful comments that are made by the public. We must transcend the debate and lead by example, which I believe we more or less achieved this evening. For the most part the remarks were nuanced and the violence was condemned, and there is a will to protect all civilian lives, regardless of whether they are Palestinian or Israeli and regardless of their religion. I think that is a step in the right direction.

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The Speaker

Oct/16/23 11:31:50 p.m.
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I would like to thank the member for Saint-Jean and all members who took part in this evening's debate. It being 11:31 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 53.1, the committee will rise.

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The Speaker

Oct/16/23 11:32:24 p.m.
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Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1). (The House adjourned at 11:32 p.m.)

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