SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 265 - Dec/11/23

Mrs. Brenda Shanahan (Châteauguay—Lacolle, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 8:40:26 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thought my colleague's speech was very interesting, especially as it related to the challenges around housing for Indigenous communities. The community of Kahnawake, which is in my riding, is an urban community. However, it faces its own challenges. A project was recently approved by Indigenous Services Canada. It is a halfway house for Mohawk youth, with services delivered by Mohawk professionals, in the community of Châteauguay. Does my colleague think that this is a good approach?

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Ms. Arielle Kayabaga

Dec/11/23 8:41:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I am very pleased that my colleague was able to tell us about this concrete example from her community. In my speech earlier, I talked about the responsibilities of the federal, provincial and municipal governments. We must all work together to ensure that more housing is built for indigenous communities across the country. Just as my colleague mentioned an example in her community, I also mentioned examples involving Manitoba and Saskatoon. The important thing is to ensure that these kinds of projects are done by and for indigenous communities across the country, and to ensure that culturally appropriate services are in place and ready to meet the needs and challenges faced by the various communities across the country. That is our responsibility. We are in the process of doing just that. We are prepared to continue to make amendments to this type of legislation to ensure that the needs of indigenous peoples across the country are met.

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Ms. Andréanne Larouche (Shefford, BQ)

Dec/11/23 8:42:42 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I heard my colleague talk about the housing challenges facing indigenous peoples. I spoke about the overrepresentation of indigenous women and girls among the victims of domestic violence, but can it be normal, in 2023, that there should also be such a significant overrepresentation of indigenous persons when it comes to homelessness?

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Ms. Arielle Kayabaga

Dec/11/23 8:43:13 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I really appreciate that question. We have been talking about homelessness since I entered politics in 2018. It is important that we can continue to build housing across the country to try to reduce homelessness. I think that my colleague who also voted during the 30‑hour marathon at the end of last week, may know that, on this side of the House, we are prepared to continue supporting projects in collaboration and partnership with communities in need to try to combat homelessness in the country. I appreciate the work that my colleague does on this, and I hope to be able to continue working with her to eradicate homelessness in Canada.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale (Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, CPC)

Dec/11/23 8:44:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I appreciate the opportunity to stand and speak about Indigenous Services and the failures within that department. It is always a pleasure. I will be splitting my time with the member for Peace River—Westlock and I look forward to hearing his wise words as well.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Dec/11/23 8:44:52 p.m.
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We are here tonight to discuss Indigenous Services and how, in the Conservatives' opinion, it is failing indigenous people right across this country. What seems to be the constant theme with this department, backed up by the Parliamentary Budget Officer and reinforced by the Auditor General, is that the government is spending more, but achieving less, and the departmental targets reflect those reports. The department itself is hitting less than 20% of its annual targets. These are targets set by the department itself, but it seems to have an issue with achieving the targets. Indigenous people on the ground expecting a service or level of care are not getting it. We are hearing that over and over again. Not only that, the cost of living crisis that we are dealing with is exacerbating the problem. Today we heard of another leader within the provincial government, Premier-Elect Simpson, who is now calling for the elimination of the carbon tax, or at least a carve-out, in the Northwest Territories. This is on top of the 133 chiefs across Ontario who are taking the government to court seeking relief. It amplifies the fact that not only is Indigenous Services failing at what it does, but indigenous people are not better off because of the government. The policies are failing and indigenous people want relief. These communities want the cost of their goods and services to come down, not continue to go up. I will go over some of the Auditor General's reports, which said that ISC failed to provide support first nations communities need to manage emergencies, such as floods and wildfires; actions were reactive instead of preventive, despite first nations communities themselves laying out an action plan; indigenous-led projects were ignored by the department; ISC did not implement a risk-based approach to manage emergencies, which was required under the Emergency Management Act; it did not use information about risks faced by first nations and the capacity of first nations to respond to those emergencies; ISC spent 3.5 times more on responding to emergencies than on supporting first nations communities, in fact, preparing them with 112 unfunded infrastructure projects, 74 of which had been in the department's backlog for more than five years. That list goes on and on. Unfortunately, there are people on the ground in communities that are suffering because of it. When we have a department that continues to gobble up more and more dollars and does not get results, where are the objectives for reconciliation being met? Unfortunately, people are suffering because of it. I am looking at the ISC's core responsibilities. Under “Services and Benefits to Individuals”, there is no change in the results. Results, in some cases, are six years old, yet we seen an increase in staffing planned, 1,700 to 1,824, an increase of 7%, but again there is no improvement in services. There is a decrease in services, an increase in the cost of living, indigenous communities are looking for help and asking for relief in housing, health care and the justice portfolio. We have studied all this at committee, but the problems continue to get worse. A pet peeve of mine, when we were looking at non-insured health benefits, is that ISC is still using a fax machine, if anyone can believe it, to fax prescriptions to the department. It is absolutely incredible that this continues to go on. We hear about this at committee, and people on the ground are hurting because of it. Let us axe the tax for farmers, first nations and families forever and help indigenous people looking to ISC for help.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 8:49:47 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I have a great deal of respect for the hon. member who just spoke. However, one of the most important pieces of indigenous relations to this country is ensuring that one understands the principles one is advocating. The member and the other Conservative member earlier are so narrowly focused on the outcomes of their carbon tax debate that they have not even mentioned clean water issues on reserves today. They have not mentioned the genocide facing the 2SLGBTQI+ community and murdered and missing women. They have not mentioned the infrastructure gap. We are left to beg the question: What are the priorities of the Conservative Party if not to recognize the treaty and aboriginal and indigenous inherent rights that are found in this country and in our Constitution? To the member's point about the carbon tax specifically, it is important that he recognizes that federal taxation in Canada writ large should ultimately be exempted on first nations reserves, which is something that is found within the Indian Act. If the member was so concerned about affordability on reserves, would he agree that it is time to ensure that first nations have true partnership in relation to all resource projects, including when they say no to them?

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Dec/11/23 8:50:58 p.m.
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Madam Chair, there is a lot to unpack there, but I actually did mention it. Unfortunately, I only had five minutes, but I did cover health and justice specifically. We did a study in committee talking about indigenous policing. We are actually working on things as a party to address that. So, I disagree with the member; it was outlined. On resource projects, yes, we would like to see more built across Canada, but in order to do that, we do need to have first nations involvement, and we are already seeing it right across the country. We are seeing it with Trans Mountain and others where there are equity stakes in these projects. First nations themselves are getting involved in these projects and actually creating wealth opportunity for their nations. This is something that, yes, in some cases we have done right and some cases we have done wrong, but let us improve on that, get better and come together as a country.

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Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace River—Westlock, CPC)

Dec/11/23 8:52:00 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I want to thank the hon. colleague for his impressive speech on this. One of the issues that the Liberals brought up in a previous speech is around housing and that housing is a shared responsibility. I was wondering if the member has any more comments around that.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Dec/11/23 8:52:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I appreciate the work of the member for Peace River—Westlock. He is a member of the indigenous and northern affairs committee, and I enjoy working with him and his additions to the debate that he is bringing to us today. Housing is something that we have heard is an ongoing issue with indigenous communities, first nations, in particular, and Inuit as well. We know that housing is often cramped and in need of repair, and that a lot of that was exacerbated during the pandemic where people were forced to live in conditions that were greatly unacceptable. ISC, unfortunately, has yet to improve on those actual outcomes. So, most of the discussion that we are bringing on this side is about actually getting results. The bar is not how much money we spend; yes, it is an important piece, but if we are spending a lot of money and getting no results, something is wrong. So, we need to actually have that conversation about how we get better outcomes in this picture.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 8:53:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I deeply respect my colleague. I am very curious, because the member mentioned that there are equity relationships where indigenous communities are buying up equity stakes. One of the things that is required for that are loan guarantees. In the fall economic statement, that was one of the principle features of our economic reconciliation. I was wondering why the member opposite and his party voted against that measure when it was brought forward last Thursday and Friday.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Dec/11/23 8:54:10 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I do appreciate the contribution from the minister. Likewise, I do have lot of respect for that member as well. We do thank the member for bringing in the loan guarantee program. In fact, it was in our platform, and we appreciate the fact that the Liberals took that piece and started to implement it. However, overall, in that 30 hours of voting, the 135 votes of no confidence was exactly that: We have no confidence in this government. We want to have the carbon tax election.

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Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace River—Westlock, CPC)

Dec/11/23 8:54:42 p.m.
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Madam Chair, it is my honour to rise tonight and speak to this debate as well. I guess I would sum it up by two different sayings. In Alberta, we have a saying, “all hat and no cattle” and in the car business, we have a saying, “all show and no go”. I think those statements sum up precisely what the Liberals' actions have been on a whole host of fronts and on indigenous services as well. The government's assessment of success is whether it spends a lot of money. Generally, the Liberal government spends a lot of money. There is no doubt about that. Every time it is faced with a problem, it gets out the Canadian chequebook to write a cheque, to say that it has spent a particular amount of money on a particular issue, but never does it go back to assess the results; never does it go back to see if it is actually achieving anything to make things better. The Auditor General's report says the government has made some dramatic promises in the past. I particularly remember running in the 2015 election and the Liberals saying that by 2019 there would be no more boil water advisories in first nations communities. 2019 has come and gone, nearly four years ago, and we still have boil water advisories in first nations communities. We now see that the Liberals are hedging a little bit. They are saying housing is a shared responsibility. No doubt. That has always been the case. The vast majority of housing in Canada is built by private individuals, built by private money. That has always been the case. Do members know what has happened under Liberal rule? Housing prices have doubled in this country. The time it takes to get a down payment has doubled. The interest rate has gone up maybe three times in the last eight years. The average mortgage payment has doubled over the last eight years under the Liberal Prime Minister. We have continually seen a lack of caring about the results, only caring about how much money they have spent. I am sure the Liberals will stand up and say that when the leader of the Conservatives was minister of housing, he only spent this much money while we have spent way more money—

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Ms. Leah Gazan

Dec/11/23 8:57:29 p.m.
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Madam Chair, on a point of order, we are having a take-note debate tonight about Indigenous Services Canada and it would be nice if the member actually spoke about that. That is what we are here to talk about. It is a critical life-and-death matter for indigenous people in this country. He could respect indigenous people by at least referring to them in his speech.

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All Topics

The Deputy Chair

Dec/11/23 8:57:54 p.m.
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I Just want to remind members that there is some flexibility in the speeches. The hon. member has two minutes and 15 seconds. I am sure he is going to bring it to the matter that is before the House. I do want to remind members that the take-note debate before the House is about indigenous services. The hon. member for Peace River—Westlock.

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Mr. Arnold Viersen

Dec/11/23 8:58:28 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would just recommend that the member turn up her earpiece, because the whole speech to this point has been on that exact topic, which is the fact that the government makes significant promises. I mentioned and referenced that, in 2015, the Liberal government ran on a promise to end boil water advisories on reserves, and it has failed. However, the Liberals will tell us all about the money they spent. The government is completely averse to talking about the results, and we have seen that over the years. The Auditor General's report on ISC, Indigenous Services Canada, included the fact that the goals and targets are ever moving and ever decreasing. These are the targets that the department sets for itself. The Auditor General noted that, repeatedly, not only has the department failed to meet those targets, but it is also then cherry-picking and lowering its targets. One thing that was pointed out is that, when the department is judging graduation rates, it is using students who are participating in the provincial education system, essentially to boost its numbers. The department had over 83 targets across the country, and it only met 69% of them. This is while the department has grown by nearly 100%. Over the last four years, the department grew from 4,100 to 7,000 individuals working there. The Liberals love to build bureaucracy. It always bumps their numbers as they hire more people in Ottawa and can easily say that they spent more money on this. On top of all that, the department has hired more people and continues to have to downgrade its targets or still fails to meet them. We see this over and over again. Beyond all that, the department continues to give its folks bonuses for failing to reach these targets.

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Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:01:02 p.m.
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Madam Chair, the member kept on talking about all the doubling of this and doubling of that, but key, critical investments from Indigenous Services Canada to tribal councils did not double. In fact, it did not double under the Conservatives' watch when the Harper government was in power. The Conservatives cut that funding dramatically. Between the Liberals and the Conservatives, the governments cut that funding in half over 20 years. These are critical services that the tribal councils, including the Nuu-Chah-Nulth Tribal Council in my riding, deliver for women, girls and elders, as well as for education and for health care, which are essential services to keep them safe and healthy. The government has failed in its promises. Indigenous peoples and tribal councils had hope when the current Liberal government was coming to power. Do the Conservatives regret cutting these essential services and funding to tribal councils, and not just the Nuu-Chah-Nulth Tribal Council, but tribal councils right across this country?

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Mr. Arnold Viersen

Dec/11/23 9:02:06 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I cannot verify anything that the member said, but I will say that, in Alberta, first nations communities have stepped up and invested in oil and gas production. They are outraged about the fact that the Prime Minister goes to COP and makes announcements to get accolades on the world stage while putting our people back here at home in jeopardy. Over 100 first nations are substantially invested in oil and gas production in northern Alberta, and they are being hamstrung by the current government. The revenue that is generated by first nations participating in these major energy projects across northern Alberta brings prosperity to every one of these communities and allows them to do the things that they need to do to ensure a prosperous and healthy life for all their members.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:03:04 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I am pleased to note that my colleague from Alberta has risen on this very important topic. Speaking of Alberta, given that the member mentioned this in his response, we have a circumstance of first nations' rights being under attack by the provincial government of Alberta, and we have a lacklustre federal government that is unwilling to protect the treaty and inherent rights of Treaty No. 6, Treaty No. 7 and Treaty No. 8 in regard to the unconstitutional sovereignty act that the United Conservative Party of the province is ramming through and forcing first nations to accept. Will the member join members from Treaty No. 6, Treaty No. 7 and Treaty No. 8 in their near unanimous opposition to the terrible, unconstitutional and racist policy that is the sovereignty act?

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Mr. Arnold Viersen

Dec/11/23 9:03:52 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thought the member was going to talk about Bill C-53. Nonetheless, I would note that the Alberta government has been one of the few governments in this country to put together a fund so that indigenous communities could have an equity stake. They can use that fund to pursue equity stakes in major energy projects. This has brought economic reconciliation to first nations across northern Alberta, ensuring that all Canadians get to participate in the economy and ensuring prosperity for everyone. When people can take home a powerful paycheque, it gives them the freedom to live their life in the way they feel is necessary. I will never apologize for ensuring that we can have full economic reconciliation in this country.

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