44th Parl. 1st Sess.
February 13, 2024 10:00AM
- Feb/13/24 5:18:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Quebec for his question and assure him that this is very important to us.
My answer would be yes, of course, as a member of Parliament, I always work in the interests of my constituents, and this is an issue and a law that has been brought forth in the last number of years that people are quite passionate about. I have always grappled with the technical and fine details of the law and the early provisions on a personal level. One term that has been used is “foreseeable death”. Thinking about this must be done with much diligence and judiciousness.
I continue to advocate on our side and within our caucus for a law that is robust, that reflects the individual interests of Canadians and that is obviously compliant with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
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Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that we have gotten ourselves into trouble with the use of arbitrary timelines. The Senate amendment to Bill C-7 kicked the can down the road two years. Last year's Bill C-39 added a year, and now Bill C-62 would add three years.
I just want the member to put that into the context of the fact that the health ministers of seven out of 10 provinces and all three territories have asked for an indefinite pause. The special joint committee, likewise, was very careful not to put a timeline in its recommendation for a pause.
How does the member reconcile this three-year pause with the fact that those institutions, those provincial governments, would rather put more of a qualitative benchmark than a timeline on it?
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- Feb/13/24 5:20:34 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, in terms of a timeline of three, five or six years, obviously, a decision was made. As the member identified, we need to work with the provinces and territories as we move forward on this policy. We need to make sure that all provinces, territories, health ministers and individuals working in the various fields are ready for this. We need to make sure that we are ready for this and that it goes through in a manner that is prudent and appropriate.
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Mr. Speaker, tonight, I rise in strong support of Bill C-62, which would delay expanding medical assistance in dying for those in whom mental illness is the sole underlying condition by three years. My reasons for doing so are the same as they were in my speech to Bill C-39, one year ago to this day, at the time when the government was willing to delay by only one year: First of all, this delay aligns with what I have heard from so many folks in my community; second, we know that this is what experts have been calling for, for some time; and third, as Greens, we believe we should spend more time filling in our social safety net before we expand medical assistance in dying.
Today, Greens also believe that we should be rushing this legislation before the March 17 deadline to ensure that MAID is not expanded for mental illness as the sole underlying condition because this is the next best thing to what Bill C-314 would have done. Bill C-314, which was proposed by the member for Abbotsford, would have avoided this expansion for good.
Substantively, in the process we are in right now, this bill has been moving ahead quite quickly to this point. I expect that, as votes follow over the coming days, we will continue to move based on the motion that was approved earlier in the day. This shows that the House of Commons can move quickly when there is an urgent priority to be addressed, as is the case with the March 17 deadline in the existing legislation. Really, what this is about in terms of moving quickly is not that we do not have the legislative tools but that we need the political will to do it.
When I think about this legislation in front of us, outside what I have shared so far in terms of why I am supporting it, why I have historically and why Greens have historically as well, my question is this: Where is the rush to support legislation that would substantively improve the quality of life of Canadians? Other members have reflected on and shared feedback, which I hope they have heard directly from people with disabilities across the country. Where is the rush on ending legislated poverty for people with disabilities?
The fact is that, to this day, 40% of people living in poverty across the country are people with disabilities. While some will talk all about a piece of legislation that was passed in June of last year, the fact is that a person with a disability is no better off today than they were before that legislation was passed. The benefit is not yet funded, and we have not engaged in and figured out negotiations with provinces and territories. It is shameful. It is an embarrassment that, in a country as rich as ours, we are in a place where people with disabilities continue to live in legislated poverty. The House of Commons could choose to act as urgently to end legislated poverty for people with disabilities as it is moving right now to ensure that the March 17 deadline is met.
The House of Commons could also push to actually address one of the core underlying issues here, which is the lack of supports to address mental health. In fact, at the time of the last electoral campaign, the Liberal Party promised a Canada mental health benefit. It was meant to be called the “Canada mental health transfer”. It was a $4.5-billion commitment, and it was not one of several bullet points in a health accord, the way we have now. One of the challenges is that, while we all want our health care to be delivered in a wholesome way, it is more helpful to have funding agreements that are specific, so we can have accountability on them. However, that is not the case when it comes to mental health. Instead, mental health is one of four bullet points in these provincial and federal agreements. As a result, it is up to the provinces, and it is unclear whether there is any accountability whatsoever on how many of the dollars in those agreements will go directly to mental health.
In this year's budget, we could see the government step up, be more clear and say it is going to make sure it directly funds what was supposed to be the Canada mental health transfer. In so doing, it would substantively improve the quality of life of Canadians, of folks in my community who are waiting on unreasonable wait times and lists to get access to a mental health professional.
If we were really serious about moving quickly on another core crisis in this country, we would move far more quickly on addressing the housing crisis. Again, for me, the little bit of hope I have, seeing what is happening right now, is that we know there are parliamentary tools available to do exactly that. The fact is, in my community, we just had a report come out today that continues to make calls with respect to dealing with people living rough, in encampments. In my community, the number of people living unsheltered has tripled in just the last three years.
We should not be in a place where this is happening, but we know why it is the case. Right now, for every one new unit of affordable housing that gets built, we are losing 15 units to the financialization of housing. Housing has increasingly become a commodity for large institutional investors to trade, rather than a place for a person to live.
This means that we continue to see large institutional investors buying up existing affordable housing, renovicting folks and increasing their rents. We wonder why that crisis is also getting worse. I do not think we would be in the place where we are right now if this Parliament, and the government in particular, were to get more serious about addressing the housing crisis.
After 30 years of underinvestment, where are we now? The fact is that we are at the bottom of the G7 when it comes to the social housing stock in this country; 3.5% of our housing is social housing. This means that, even if we were to double social housing, we would only be around the middle of the pack in the G7.
It means something after 30 years of underinvestment in communities across the country. I am thinking about someone I spoke with this past weekend, a nurse, who told me she cannot afford to live in our community as a result of the reality of the cost of housing. It means that, whether someone is a teacher, a nurse or a tradesperson, this is a generation that is looking at housing fundamentally differently than any one before it has. Why is that? In my community, since 2005, the cost of housing has gone up 275%, but wages have only gone up 42%.
Once again, if we were to truly fill in the social safety net and move as quickly on doing that as the government has moved today on meeting this March 17 deadline, we could substantively ensure that we see the funding necessary to address the affordable housing crisis. We could also address financialization, which is the fact that institutional investors have swept in to make the biggest buck possible, as quickly as possible, on the backs of some of the lowest-income people in my community.
Yes, I will be supporting Bill C-62. I think this is a really important opportunity for us all to mark that this Parliament can move quickly when it needs to on real crises that it sees. We have crises of housing, of legislated poverty for people with disabilities and of mental health, which this Parliament and the government should move a whole lot faster on.
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- Feb/13/24 5:30:19 p.m.
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It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.
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Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise once again in the House to speak to Bill C-273, an act to amend the Criminal Code. Introduced by my colleague, the member for New Westminster—Burnaby, the bill proposes to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code.
It is an undeniable fact that all children have the right to be protected from violence and abuse. As adults are, children are protected from a range of general criminal offences, including assault.
I am a member of the Standing Committee on Health, where we study how to best support the physical, mental and emotional well-being of children across Canada. A big part of that goal is fostering healthy, safe environments in which children learn, evolve and grow.
I have also heard from parents in my riding of Richmond Hill about their concerns for their children’s safety, not only at school but also on their way to and from school. I have had one parent personally reach out to my office to ask for assistance in securing the safety of his daughter because of the ongoing harassment she faced at school. Cases such as these serve as crucial reminders for us to take action on enhancing the protection of children in our communities, in our education system and across Canada. This starts with making the necessary amendments to our current legal provisions on this matter.
Bill C-273 delves into deeply sensitive matters, including parental authority, children's rights, the government's appropriate involvement and delineating between acceptable parental discipline and instances of child abuse. I would like to start by outlining section 43 of the Criminal Code, which the bill addresses, and a few of the important perspectives we have heard on it.
The bill before us specifically addresses section 43 of the Criminal Code, which provides a defence to a criminal charge of assault in situations where parents, guardians or teachers use corporal punishment with the intent of educating or correcting a child. This means that parents can use mild physical force, such as spanking or light hitting, to discipline a child in their care. Section 43 also applies to allow parents to use physical control to restrain or remove a child in appropriate circumstances. The same provision also applies to situations where a parent or a teacher uses reasonable physical force to restrain or expel a child from a classroom when appropriate.
We know that Canadians hold a wide range of opinions regarding what should be deemed a suitable degree of physical discipline when parenting or teaching a child. These differing perspectives have sparked discussions regarding which behaviours reach a level of harm necessitating prohibition, all while recognizing that parental choices are deeply personal. I appreciate the chance offered by Bill C-273 to reflect on these significant questions.
Our government supports Bill C-273 and its crucial goal of safeguarding children from violence and abuse. Nonetheless, we have received feedback from parents, particularly those from overpoliced communities, and educators. They have expressed apprehension that they may face criminalization for reasonable actions, such as minor instances of physical intervention that do not result in harm.
It is worth noting that section 43 has been a component of the Criminal Code since 1892, remaining largely untouched. Its origins flow from the parental duty to protect and educate children. The defence typically applies in relation to assault charges, because assault is broadly defined in the Criminal Code as the non-consensual application of force. This definition captures non-consensual touching or even threats against another person, regardless of their age or whether physical harm or injury occurs.
Section 43 was enacted by Parliament to prevent the criminalization of specific behaviours by teachers, parents and caregivers. However, its current application is not designed to safeguard against abusive or harmful behaviour.
The Supreme Court of Canada, in its 2004 decision Canadian Foundation for Children, Youth and the Law v. Canada, found that section 43 is consistent with sections 7, 12 and 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and clarified that the defence applies only to parents who impose minor corporal punishment of a transitory or trifling nature. The court also set certain parameters on the defence. For example, the defence applies only where the child is aged two to 12 and is capable of learning from the situation. No object may be used when applying force. The child’s head must not be slapped. There can be no physical harm or reasonable prospect of harm, and the adult must not be acting out of frustration or anger.
The court has restricted the scope of the defence, particularly concerning educators, who are constrained to employing judicious physical intervention solely for the purpose of upholding discipline or enforcing school regulations, such as relocating a student from a classroom or ensuring adherence to instructions. The court underscored that corporal punishment administered by teachers is unequivocally prohibited. In the aftermath of the Supreme Court of Canada's ruling nearly two decades ago, advancing research and insights into the adverse effects linked to the physical disciplining of children have led to heightened calls for the reform or repeal of section 43.
The government is steadfast in its dedication to realizing all recommendations outlined in the 2015 final report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. The repeal of section 43 would constitute another stride toward fulfilling this commitment, aligning with call to action 6. This particular call is substantiated by documented instances of pervasive corporal punishment and child mistreatment by personnel within the residential school system, as highlighted in the commission's final report: “The failure to develop, implement, and monitor effective discipline sent an unspoken message that there were no real limits on what could be done to Aboriginal children within the walls of a residential school.”
Advocates for the complete repeal of section 43, including numerous civil society entities and the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child, contend that the existing criminal legislation fails to afford children equal protection to that which is afforded to adults. Moreover, a growing body of medical and social science studies suggests that corporal punishment adversely impacts children. Such disciplinary measures expose children to the risks of physical harm, abuse, compromised mental well-being, strained parent-child relationships, heightened childhood aggression, anti-social conduct and increased violence and criminal behaviour as adults, thereby perpetuating cycles of violence. More than 650 organizations across Canada have endorsed the stance that physical discipline of children and youth yields no beneficial outcomes, and have called for the same protection from assault for children as that given to adults.
However, the complete repeal of section 43 raises concerns in some sectors. For instance, various religious groups, legal scholars and teacher representation bodies, including the Canadian Teachers' Federation, have expressed reservations regarding the complete repeal of section 43. They contend that a complete repeal could expose teachers and parents to potential criminal charges for minor and inconsequential physical interactions with children such as intervening in sibling disputes or relocating a student from a classroom in the interest of the safety of the other students. In the absence of a legal safeguard for parents, educators and caregivers who apply reasonable physical force to children in their care, the assault provisions may apply. This is due to the broad scope of the assault provisions, encompassing minor instances of force that do not culminate in physical harm. For instance, this could encompass scenarios such as a parent restraining a child to ensure they are properly placed in a car seat.
As I alluded to earlier, it may also have an unintended negative impact on populations that are already proven to be overpoliced and overrepresented in the criminal justice and child welfare systems, including the indigenous and Black communities, as well as members of other racialized groups.
In closing—
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- Feb/13/24 5:40:55 p.m.
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Resuming debate, the hon. member for Elgin—Middlesex—London.
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- Feb/13/24 5:41:02 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is truly an honour to be able to stand in this place today to debate this important piece of legislation. I come here, working on things like domestic violence, interpersonal relationship violence and the protection of children, but I also wear a hat of a mother of five and a grandmother of two. I know, one can only tell by some of the wrinkles that I am a grandmother.
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- Feb/13/24 5:41:31 p.m.
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- Feb/13/24 5:41:31 p.m.
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One cannot mention the name of a member of the House.
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- Feb/13/24 5:41:31 p.m.
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Thanks to Leah for always laughing at me.
Today's bill is brought—
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- Feb/13/24 5:41:39 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, You are absolutely right; I cannot do that. I am thankful that on such an important issue we are able to have these conversations, and we have to have a little bit of give.
The bill before us today has been brought forward to amend the Criminal Code, specifically with respect to the repeal of section 43. To begin, I want to clearly state that there is no provision in the Criminal Code that allows for violence against children. Perpetrators of child abuse must be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Currently in Canada there are clear parameters for use of the physical correction stated in section 43.
I want to get into that part because as we are having this discussion, making sure we can differentiate between what would be seen as corrective force and abuse is very important. The line is very hard to draw. We recognize that in some situations, physical correction could be a one-off, but that in some households it could be a common practice. There is a much greater discussion we need to have, and to try to take a really hard stand on this can be very difficult.
Ultimately, I want to go back to looking at what is currently in our legislation, what parents can currently do and what the restrictions are. I am going to read something that comes out of New Brunswick, a simple flyer that was put out to parents by the Public Legal Education and Information Service of New Brunswick. It hits on what the parameters are, so I want to put it on the record. It reads:
What ‘boundaries’ did the Supreme Court set for physically disciplining children?
The Supreme Court of Canada stated that:
The force used must be intended to educate or correct the child;
The force used must be to restrain, control or express disapproval of the actual behaviour;
The child must be capable of benefiting from the discipline. In other words, factors such a child’s age and disability will influence the child's ability to learn from the use of force;
The force used must be “reasonable under the circumstances” and not offend society’s view of decency.
I add this to the discussion because we talk a lot about abuse. We talk about coercive control, which is not even a physical abuse, but we know it exists. However, we have to differentiate between parenting and abuse. This is a very hard discussion to have. I am a mother of five and I know that my son watching at home is also thinking, “What does this mean? What did I do as parent? What mistakes did I make?”
I do not recall ever being spanked as a child. Perhaps I should have been; I do not know, but there are times and places in which there needs to be physicality for the protection of a child and for their own safety. I heard the member for Richmond Hill talk about physicality while trying to put a child into a car seat. It very clearly is not about slapping the child in the face and telling them, “You do as I say”, but it is for the protection of that child. I am thinking of a situation such as taking a child away from a burning fire, because, like little bugs, they think it is interesting, and there is a need to physically remove children from those situations. Each and every time we are talking about that, we need to look at the situation, because this is situation-based.
I am not saying I am an advocate for spanking, but what I am is an advocate for understanding the situation and understanding the controls or the limitations parents may have. In some cases, unfortunately, force may be the only solution. When I say that, to me, it needs to be the final resort. It would have to be the final resort in the protection of that child. I would like to refer to the Library of Parliament, which did a really good study on this in February 2023. It is part of its HillStudies and is available to the public if anyone wants to print it off. It is obvious from the information in this write-up that we are talking about very different things and that we need to be aware.
It is obvious just from here in the House that there is a vast range of views on physical contact for parenting and for teaching. Some advocates feel abuse is never justified but recognize a corrective lens. As I was reading a dissenting report coming from the discussions on this, I think it was six out of nine judges in 2004 who supported the Supreme Court decision to allow the Criminal Code to remain as is, with section 43 allowing for children to receive corrective force from teachers and from parents. The reason I want to talk about this is that there are appropriate times and places. Six out of the nine different judges agreed with there needing to be something and needing to continue with the bill. In the dissenting report, many of them came with a “but" and said that they understood, but that this needed to be used as a last resort.
I am reading section 43 of the Criminal Code, which states:
Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.
I think this is really important because I spoke about teachers, and as the member who spoke previously mentioned, we received a letter from the Canadian Teachers' Federation, which I have here and want to add to the discussion. I will quote its concerns:
The CTF...has a long-standing policy opposing corporal punishment and supports the Government of Canada's commitment to enact all the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's Calls to Action. At the same time, the CTF...wants to ensure that no unintended harm is caused through the process, which is the case with the potential repeal of Section 43. If Section 43 is repealed without other changes to the Criminal Code that ensure teachers may intervene physically when necessary to protect students and, in some cases, themselves, teachers will not be able to maintain safety and security in classrooms.
I wanted to add to that, because it is very much like the dissenting report that I read from the Supreme Court, talking about why people may not have supported a repeal. It is because we recognize that there may be some instances when things are out of control. I think of a high school principal I know personally, who was trying to break up a fight in a high school. It is a bit different, but we have to understand that sometimes in school situations teachers unfortunately must intervene. In this case, it was a principal who got in between two young women who were fighting. Ultimately, the two young women were fine, but the teacher will never be able to teach again because he hit the floor when he was pushed, and he will have brain damage forever. Therefore we have to understand that sometimes these workplaces need to be controlled as well.
I am taking that very strange situation of what happened to a teacher in a high school and relating it to what might happen in elementary schools. How can we ensure that teachers are in charge and are respected in the classrooms? My sharing the story of the high school principal has a lot to do with respect for teachers in these institutions and the fact that there needs to be some control. I am not talking about forceful control, but sometimes there are situations that are way out of control, so a teacher may need to reprimand a child or take them to the office. When the Canadian Teachers' Federation comes forward to speak to us, I think those are the situations in which it wants to ensure that the safety of its members and the safety of the students are going to be paramount. I believe taking section 43 out may have extraordinary consequences because of how unsafe our schools are at this time. We are trying to do a good job, but unfortunately mental health situations are impairing us very much.
I want to go to my final point, the proposals for reform. We know that we have had approximately over 20 private member's bills on this specific subject. None of them has passed at committee, and in the last 20 years, in a report on children's rights in Canada, the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights recommended the repeal of section 43 and highlighted the need for public education campaigns. I absolutely agree with that part, because I think it is important that, any time we are talking about abuse or misbehaving, we to educate.
I think this all comes down to section 43 being a tool to be used only as a final resource, but I think we cannot take away this tool from our teachers and parents.
I appreciate the time to speak on this important topic.
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Madam Speaker, if I may, I would like to wish my daughter Naomie a happy second birthday and tell her that mommy loves her very much. It is a bit in keeping with the theme of the bill before us, since we are talking about children, and I am certain she is paying close attention right now.
Some bills are tricky to explain, especially when they are about children, and particularly given that, in Quebec, we are crazy about our kids. That being said, I want to state from the outset that the Bloc Québécois will be voting against Bill C-273 to prevent it from being studied in committee. I will begin by explaining why we made this decision. I will then describe the context surrounding this bill and, finally, I will explain why it is a bad idea masquerading as a good one.
First of all, the Bloc Québécois is once again advocating a balanced position on this sensitive issue. We are going to be the adults in the room. As such, we believe that the law must include reasonable defence mechanisms to help maintain public confidence in our rule of law.
The bill essentially aims to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code, which provides a defence to parents as well as teachers if they use reasonable force to correct a child. This could be described as child discipline and parental discipline.
Section 43 states, “Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.” That is clearly stated.
Second, as we have seen in the media, a movement has taken off in recent years. This movement calls for an end to all forms of corporal punishment of children and young people, including the repeal of section 43 of the Criminal Code. A number of stakeholders and groups like Corinne's Quest have expressed their support for the idea that parliamentarians should remove this provision from the legal framework once and for all. Initiatives with that goal have been introduced in the House of Commons and the Senate as recently as 2022.
It is important to recall that, in 2004, the Supreme Court considered the issue and upheld the constitutionality of section 43. It can be used as a defence to charges of assaulting a child. To avoid legal pitfalls, we believe it remains relevant to the exercise of parental or teaching authority, as long as it is reasonable.
In Canadian Foundation for Children, Youth and the Law v. Canada, the highest court interpreted section 43 of the Criminal Code. Section 43 was challenged on the basis of sections 7 and 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which guarantee the right to security of the person and the right to equality respectively, but it was not struck down because the protection it offers is limited. As a result, it does not exclude the possibility of charges being brought and possibly even criminal sanctions being imposed when excessive force is used against a child.
As soon as that force becomes anything more than transitory or trifling force to control the behaviour of a child or as soon as it becomes harmful or degrading for the child, then the protection offered under section 43 no longer applies and the behaviour in question can be considered criminal. This protection is exercised reasonably and the circumstances are taken into account. The Supreme Court found that force may not involve objects, such as rulers or belts, and it may not be applied to the child's head.
The removal of section 43 from the Criminal Code would mean criminalizing the normal behaviour of parents who are trying to put their child to bed and of teachers who have to physically control a child to remove them from the classroom or take them out of a dangerous situation, such as a fight.
Without a protection mechanism, prosecutors can still exercise their discretion to prosecute or not. However, once charged, parents and teachers would lose legal recognition of the educational role they play, which could justify these behaviours. Psychology has shown that removing this legal recognition can have consequences.
Third, the NDP's Bill C‑273 is an all-or-nothing proposal: either repeal section 43 or not. The fact that the NDP is unwilling to compromise when it comes to justifying actions intended to physically control a child or youth stems from its ideology.
An example of a compromise would have been to repeal section 43 but to add a new provision that indicates that the behaviour cannot be criminalized if the force is used to protect the child from a threat or danger, to prevent the child from committing a crime, or when performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good parenting.
The NDP's proposal is not the good idea that it appears to be. With the rise in violence in our schools, we cannot take away the few protective measures that teachers have at a time when they need to manage students who are less and less respectful of authority. Criminalizing by default force that is used to reasonably control a misbehaving student does nothing to encourage efforts to recruit educators.
That is a very real issue right now. For example, a Radio-Canada article written by Alexandre Duval last year stated that in 2021, “education centres in Quebec reported twice as many violent acts as in 2018-2019, before the pandemic”. There is no denying that increase, and we cannot add to teachers' mental burden by increasing the risk of lawsuits and taking away their ability to intervene if situations get out of hand. The article states the following:
At the Centre de services scolaires des Affluents in Lanaudière, reports of physical and verbal violence more than doubled over the same period, from 757 to over 2,000. This represents an increase of 164%. A comparable increase of 141% occurred in cases reported at the Centre de services scolaires de la Beauce-Etchemin. Just over 400 violent acts were reported in 2021, compared with 979 last year.
I would like to share a personal story. Before I was elected, because I love children so much, I was lucky enough to work as a monitor in an elementary school, where I had to deal with various situations. I had a ball thrown at my face, which broke my glasses. I saw children in crisis attacking their classmates. This was clearly a safety issue for the student involved and for the others. That is to say nothing of all the times I walked into a classroom and the teacher was trying to get some of the more unruly students under control. I witnessed some pretty disturbing scenes.
This bill would make it difficult for staff to intervene. In fact, I myself would have had concerns about intervening to restore a sense of security in such situations. We have to be extremely careful because the law already exists and we cannot use excessive force on a child. We obviously do not want to harm a child. Earlier I mentioned the 2004 ruling on section 43.
The research I did in preparation for this speech also led me to a report from the Institut national de santé publique du Québec that focused on violence and health and addressed the issue of bullying and violence at school. Violence can occur between students as well. Staff have to be able to take reasonable action if the other students are in danger.
In conclusion, the Bloc Québécois believes that our schools can be safe places for everyone and that our teachers play a key role in preserving a harmonious environment that is conducive to learning. We need to have a legal framework that is respectful of parental and teaching authority, provided it is used reasonably. It is a matter of education, but also of safety. As I was saying earlier, it is also a matter of knowing how we want to intervene with children, but it needs to be done reasonably. That is why we are voting against Bill C‑273. Again, the NDP is proposing an idea that is not as good as it seems and that might end up criminalizing the behaviour of parents and teachers who are acting in good faith.
I would like to point out one last thing. We all want the best education for our children, but we need to keep the tools that we have for taking action and protecting them. No one wants to use excessive force against a child. If there is a problem, then we want the justice system to be able to do its work. What we are seeing right now is that there are risks involved in repealing section 43. There is the risk of additional pressure on staff and the risk of error on the part of some parents. For all of these reasons, once again, the Bloc Québécois will be voting against this bill, which addresses this extremely sensitive issue. Let us remember that, first and foremost, we want to make children's welfare a top priority for elected officials in the House.
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Madam Speaker, it is an honour for me to rise today to speak in favour of Bill C-273, which was put forward by my wonderful colleague from New Westminster—Burnaby and seconded by my colleague from Nunavut.
As we have heard, the goal of this bill is to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code, “Correction of child by force”, which states, “Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.”
We are now in 2024. I was a long-time ECE teacher. I taught in the faculty of education at the University of Winnipeg training pre-service teachers entering schools. We know there is no benefit to using physical force against a student. In my time as a teacher, often working with students at risk, never once did I have to lay a hand on a student to remain in control.
It is not surprising that in my riding in Manitoba, the Aurora Family Therapy Centre supports the repeal of section 43, in addition to the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents. The very heads of schools in Manitoba support the repeal, along with Manitoba child care associations, experts in the field who understand very well that there is no place for using physical force against children.
In addition to this bill, one of the calls to action by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is to repeal section 43. We know of the harms that were done to children in residential schools. We know of the permanent damage and emotional scars that utilizing physical force against children had. That is why I am not surprised that over 700 organizations, including school superintendents, are supporting the repeal of section 43 of the Criminal Code.
I remember it was in my grade 2 class that I began hating on school. There was a time in my education where I do not think any teacher ever believed I would graduate from high school. My grade 2 teacher, whose name I still remember, Mr. Camilo, used to kick kids who were out of line to get them back in line. I remember one kid who was clearly struggling. Looking back, he probably had all sorts of stuff going on in his life, maybe even violence in his own home. He was kicked daily by Mr. Camilo to get him back in line.
I never saw any improvement in behaviour in his young boy. In fact, there was a growing resentment between the student and Mr. Camilo. I remember, as a little girl, how much I hated Mr. Camilo. My father was a psychologist with the department of education and worked with some of the most difficult kids who were having the most difficulties in the classroom, and we would talk about this.
I remember my dad advocating to end violence against kids in schools and physical punishment in school, having suffered his own physical punishment from adults trying to keep him in line when he was in hiding during the Holocaust. He remembered the emotional scars that caused, so I am not surprised that nearly 700 organizations and academics have endorsed a joint statement on the physical punishment of children and youth, stating that the physical punishment of children can no longer be justified by the Criminal Code of Canada. Seven hundred is no small number of experts, academics and folks like me, people who actually train pre-service teachers, who are saying there is no room to punish kids physically in institutions.
In fact, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that governments “must protect children from violence”. We are obliged, as members of Parliament, to uphold UN conventions, including that governments must protect children from violence and, I would argue, protect children from violence and abuse and being neglected by anyone who looks after them. I would argue that this bill is one more occasion when we can uphold human rights laws that impact children. There are over 65 countries around the world that have already banned the practice of physically punishing children. If Canada is to be a leader in human rights, it must repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code.
I have to say that I am disappointed, especially with the release of the truth and reconciliation report that came out in 2015, that we still live in a time when we can justify any sort of physical punishment of children, especially in child care institutions and schools. I can say, as somebody who spent over 30 years in the field of education, whether as an ECE, as a teacher or in training pre-service teachers at the university, that I never had to physically restrain some of the kids who had a lot of difficulties in the classroom, so I find this really hard.
It is often targeted at kids with special needs, including kids, for example, with ADHD, kids like my son, who had to have an individualized education program because he had difficulty staying in his seat. The teacher managed to integrate him into the classroom by putting tape on the floor to remind my wonderful son Jacob, my courageous, brilliant son Jacob, that he had to stay in the square. This teacher allowed my son to stand up at his desk and rock back and forth, because he could not manage himself sitting at his desk. He wrote all this beautiful poetry, and he got “outstanding” in science, and all it took was having him stand up. We need to find better and more creative ways to manage behaviour in the classroom and institutions, rather than physically restraining kids to make them follow the rules and toe the line even though we know that kids have differences.
Therefore, I am very proud to rise with my colleague from New Westminster—Burnaby to bring this issue to light and to have the courage to say that maybe we need to do things a little better; maybe we need to be a little kinder, a little more gentle and a little more tender; and maybe we need to raise a new generation of children who practise non-violence because that non-violence was practised toward them.
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Madam Speaker, I am happy to stand today to speak to Bill C-273, an act to amend the Criminal Code.
I want to thank my colleague, the MP for New Westminster—Burnaby, for putting forward this important legislation, as well as the MP for Nunavut, who spoke recently to the bill, and now my colleague, the member for Winnipeg Centre. Both are incredibly strong voices in this chamber.
As we know, the physical punishment of children is still legal in Canada. I am a mother of two. My daughter, Makayla, is now 21, and my son is 16, so it hits my heart, and I believe it hits the hearts of many parents and people who care for children and youth across the country. Children should not have to live in fear of or experience physical punishment at home, at school or anywhere in our communities, and we know the detrimental impacts when they do.
Findings from a joint statement that was put forward by Canadians, and it sounds like my colleague was saying it was 700 organizations, including Family Service Canada, the Canadian Institute of Child Health and the Canadian Public Health Association, among others, show that there is no clear evidence that the use of physical punishment has any benefit to children and youth whatsoever. In fact, the findings show the opposite, that physical punishment on children places them at increased risk of not only physical harm but also poor mental health and increased negative impacts in areas such as moral values and challenges in adjusting into adulthood. I think our children and youth have a lot going on in today's world, and it is just an additional burden on so many children to have to deal with physical violence. To make matters worse, we know that physical punishment, regardless of the degree of the punishment, carries an increased risk of the escalation of violence.
There are 60 countries around the world that have banned the practice of physical punishment on children and youth, and this number continues to grow. Despite this, Canada is lagging behind on essential legislation to protect children.
This is not new. We know that Corinne Robertshaw, a lawyer for the federal government, saw first-hand the impacts of allowing physical punishment of children, with the death and injury of children in the 1970s and 1980s. Her advocacy continues today through dedicated volunteers for Corinne's Quest, which works to protect children and advocate for the repeal of section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada.
Section 43 of the Criminal Code states, “Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.”
Now, I am certain many in this chamber today are having the same response to this section of the Criminal Code that I am. Again, the wording “force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances” is so far from clear. Also, with “force by way of correction”, there is so much room for interpretation, and it is leaving our children and youth at risk as a result.
We are seeing the devastating impacts of this outdated section of the Criminal Code across the country. For example, we see reports as well as evidence of horrific abuses of children and youth in schools from the very people entrusted to care for our children. We have seen reports of children being isolated and inappropriately restrained, causing physical and emotional harm, with little to no consequences for those who committed these acts. We know that this section of the Criminal Code does nothing to protect our children.
I would like to clarify that we are not talking about the actions required to protect children from themselves or others in school, for example. We are talking about physical acts of punishment, which we know clearly have no benefit for children.
I worked in schools for many years. Unfortunately, the stories that we often do not want to share are about the fact that sometimes there are circumstances in which a child is a potential harm to themselves and we have to do our duty as the adults and as educators.
As an example, I was working with a youth who was struggling and unable to make the judgment to not run into traffic. I had to, with care, hold on to his arm to ensure that he did not harm himself and run into traffic. There are examples where, of course, there needs to be carefully thought-out care provided to children, but this is not what we are talking about.
What we are talking about today is physical punishment. I want to make sure that is very clear. There are so many educational professionals across the country who go above and beyond to keep our kids safe and happy and their brains and bodies active. Educators need the capacity to keep children safe. I know that first-hand. At the same time, this section is causing more problems than it is good.
Of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's recommendations, specifically recommendation no. 6 is an exact recommendation within this report. We know that only 13 of 94 calls to action have actually been moved forward on to date. These calls to action were brought forward because of the bravery of residential school survivors and their families who shared their stories and experiences. It is time to see the government move forward with these recommendations. It is an insult to indigenous people and to all Canadians, the pace at which these recommendations are being actioned by the Liberal government. They need to be actioned today. This motion is a way to move forward in putting into action another recommendation.
My colleague, the MP for Nunavut, recently highlighted in the House the history and justification of harms towards indigenous children, which remain a shameful part of Canada's past and continue today as a result of government inaction on necessary changes in the Criminal Code, such as to section 43, being debated today. I want to highlight her words in her recent speech on this exact bill, because I feel they are important.
Canada's reconciliation with indigenous peoples still requires dedicated, well-invested and true commitment. Indigenous peoples have yet to experience active reconciliation. Banning the physical punishment of children would be a positive step. Justification for harming children can end. It can be the 44th Parliament that achieves this.
My hope is that we will all come together as members in the House to support this bill and do what is needed to protect children and youth. We know that this not a partisan issue. This is a much-overdue and necessary change to an outdated section of the Criminal Code. Despite our differences in this House, my hope is that we will all put partisanship to the side and do what is in the best interests of children and youth.
I want to point out that this is important work to move forward with big and necessary steps, but in addition to this, families require the supports and resources necessary to prevent and stop the cycle of violence. I cannot reiterate enough how vitally important it is that we have a government that is truly investing in people, as too many are struggling to make ends meet and too many are not getting the supports they need. These are ingredients for increased violence and need to be addressed and invested in appropriately.
Instead of providing justification for the physical punishment of our children, we must all come together to ensure that the human rights of children and youth are respected by repealing section 43 of the Criminal Code and supporting my colleague's bill, Bill C-273.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to start by noting that, this evening and in past debate, we have heard really clear calls for how important this bill is, in particular from our hon. colleague the member for Nunavut tonight. The member for Winnipeg Centre further made clear that case.
With the limited time that I have, the contribution I would like to make to this debate is really focused on the importance of listening to indigenous leaders, particularly with respect to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action.
In my view, Bill C-273 is an offer to all parliamentarians to move ahead with the TRC's calls to actions. For my part, I have committed to fully implementing them, as has the Green Party of Canada.
I will read out, once again, call to action 6: “We call upon the Government of Canada to repeal Section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada.”
This is exactly what Bill C-273 seeks to do.
As background, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission issued 94 calls to action back in 2015 and progress has been absurdly slow. At the current pace, the calls will not be completed until 2081, yet every party in this House of Commons has committed to fully implementing the calls.
I will summarize them now. In 2015, then-leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, now the Prime Minister, said, “On behalf of the Liberal Party of Canada and our parliamentary caucus, I affirm our unwavering support for the TRC’s recommendations, and call on the Government of Canada to take immediate action to implement them.”
That is being applauded by a member from the governing party. I would remind that member that call to action 6 is exactly what this bill is calling for. I certainly hope that this government will be supporting Bill C-273.
As for the Conservative Party, in 2021, Erin O'Toole, then-leader of the Conservative Party, pledged a plan to implement all Truth and Reconciliation calls to action. I assume that included call to action 6.
As for the Bloc Québécois, in 2021, in their platform, Bloc MPs would pressure the federal government to implement all recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
In the same campaign, 2021, the leader of the NDP committed to fully implement all outstanding recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. An NDP MP, in fact, is bringing forward a bill here to work toward doing so.
The leader of the Green Party of Canada, the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands, pledged the same thing.
In short, I hope that my colleagues follow through on the commitments of their parties and those that I know they personally, I am sure, have also made.
Certainly, I hope, at the very least, that this would get to committee. This is the second time now, in my time as an MP, that I am seeing this gap between commitments to follow the TRC calls to action and opportunities that MPs have to do so.
The last time was on Bill C-5. One of the TRC calls to action, call to action 32, is to remove mandatory minimum penalties. Of course, Bill C-5 removed some but not all of them. That was not what was in call to action 32. It was to follow through on removing all of them.
Once again, though, in this vote on Bill C-273, parliamentarians will have another opportunity. For those who have pledged to pressure the government to do so, this is now being offered. An MP has put forward a bill that would directly call to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code. That is call to action 6.
I would hope that colleagues would support this bill and, in doing so, move us one very small step closer toward following through on all 94 calls to action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission from back in 2015. We are now in 2024. We need to move more quickly. Here is one chance to do so.
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Madam Speaker, tomorrow, we have an important task. We are going to hold a vote on the principle of Bill C-273, which seeks to ban corporal punishment of children in Canada and repeal the section of the Criminal Code that has existed since 1892 that allows for corporal punishment of children. One of my colleagues just said that this bill needs to be amended. Tomorrow, we will vote on the principle, but amendments can certainly be presented in committee.
In addition, it is important to mention, as my colleague from Winnipeg Centre just did, that 700 organizations across the country want MPs from Quebec and across Canada to vote in favour of the bill tomorrow. Dozens of those organizations are in Quebec, such as the Association des centres jeunesse du Québec, the Association des CLSC et des CHSLD du Québec, the Association des médecins en protection de l'enfance du Québec, the Association québécoise des centres de la petite enfance au Québec, and many others. They want us to vote in favour because they understand the impact of these punishments. Corporal punishment is linked to widespread and lasting personal and societal harm. As the organizations point out, 75% of substantiated cases of physical abuse in Canada are linked to corporal punishment. These organizations make it abundantly clear that section 43 of the Criminal Code must be repealed.
Other countries are doing the same. It is important to point that out. Countries like Korea, Colombia, Japan, South Africa, France, Ireland, Argentina, Brazil, Poland and Spain have abolished corporal punishment of children. Tomorrow's vote in principle on the bill will allow us to join 65 countries around the world that have already held these debates and decided that section 43 of the Criminal Code should be abolished.
I wanted to shout out to Corinne's Quest; Kathy and John Lynn of New Westminster, British Columbia; and all the organizations that have called for the abolition of section 43 of the Criminal Code. They have done that as the Truth and Reconciliation Commission tells us to in its call to action 6. After the horrendous genocide that happened in residential schools, they are saying now is the time to move forward on call to action 6. As my colleagues have mentioned, it has been eight years since those calls to action were issued.
There has not been one call to action that has been advanced since 2022, and this means that members of Parliament tomorrow will have the ability to vote in principle on moving forward on call to action 6; removing section 43 of the Criminal Code, which dates back to 1892; and finally putting in place the kind of atmosphere for kids that we need to see in our country.
I mentioned earlier many of the national organizations that are calling on parliamentarians to abolish section 43. They include the Anglican Church of Canada, Big Brothers Big Sisters, the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, occupational therapists, pediatric health centres, pediatric nurses, social workers, the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Canadian Red Cross, the YMCA, the YWCA and more than 65 countries that have called for the same thing, because they know that 75% of substantiated physical abuse cases in Canada arise from incidents of physical punishment.
They say very clearly that it is time for Canada to move beyond an aspect of the Criminal Code that was put in place in 1892. It is time to heed the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It is time to put in place call to action 6. It is time to learn from the past.
Tomorrow, members of Parliament will have an important vote, the vote in principle to move forward from this aspect of the Criminal Code that justifies physical punishment of children.
I hope that all those voices are heard and I hope that members of Parliament vote yes on Bill C-273.
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- Feb/13/24 6:24:45 p.m.
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The hon. member for New Westminster—Burnaby has five minutes for his right of reply.
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- Feb/13/24 6:29:55 p.m.
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It being 6:30 p.m., the time provided for debate has expired.
Accordingly, the question is on the motion.
If a member participating in person wishes that the motion be carried or carried on division, or if a member of a recognized party participating in person wishes to request a recorded division, I would invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.
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- Feb/13/24 6:30:25 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would ask for a recorded vote.
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