44th Parl. 1st Sess.
June 3, 2024 11:00AM
- Jun/3/24 5:17:00 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, in fact we are studying this in the status of women committee, and just how women's legal groups, particularly, want to actually get rid of claims about parental alienation because they have no scientific basis, which is what they are saying. It actually results, very often, in women and gender-diverse people who are experiencing violence being more victimized. This is well researched.
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- Jun/3/24 5:17:42 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Regina—Lewvan.
I would like to get back to the basics on the bill before us, which is on a national pharmacare program. Before we can even consider a program like this, I believe Canadians need to place all of this into context within the fiscal mess that has been created by the Liberal government going forward.
As members know, we are facing a fiscal wall. We are leaving behind, for future generations to pay back, a massive national debt. In fact, over the last nine years, this Prime Minister and his Liberal government have amassed more indebtedness than all previous Canadian governments combined since Confederation. That is one piece of the context.
What about the ongoing deficits being run by this Liberal government? There is no end to them. In fact, time and time again, the finance minister has been asked to at least give us a timeline when we will return to balance, when Canada will begin again to live within its means and not spend more money than is being brought in by taxes. Each time, the Minister of Finance and Deputy Prime Minister has said nothing. She will not respond to that question, because the answer is that there is no plan. How can we, as a nation, justify billion-dollar program after billion-dollar program without having a plan to bring our fiscal mess back into order? The only way to do that is to come back into balanced budgets, which has not happened.
There is also the challenge of increasing taxes on Canadians. Carbon taxes, which have been the subject of much debate in the House, keep going up and up. Fuel taxes are going up and up. In fact, it was not long ago when my colleague for Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon was at committee, and they were grilling the Minister of Small Business. The minister had asserted that she had reduced taxes on small businesses. The simple question that my colleague asked was which tax the minister had reduced on small business. And the answer was, well, humming and hawing. Finally the minister turned to her officials and said that perhaps her officials could answer that question. The officials looked dumbfounded, because they did not have an answer either. The truth is, taxes have not been reduced on small businesses. Across the board, taxes have been raised on Canadians.
Now, within that context, this Liberal government wants to introduce another billion-dollar spending program. The Liberals could have come to us and said, “Listen, the recent budget shows that we will be returning to balance within the next, say, five years, and within that context we'd like to bring forward a program that is going to help those who have no pharmacare coverage.” However, that is not what they did. This government came forward and said that it was going to spend another $40 billion, $50 billion additional, that it would go into deficit by another $40 billion, and that it would throw in this program that would put Canada in the hole for years to come. However, who has to pay all of that back? I heard some heckling over here in the corner because they do not like to hear the truth, but it will be future generations of Canadians, with interest thereon. So that is the context in which this whole pharmacare discussion needs to take place.
This is not a pharmacare plan. Like so many others, this is an empty promise that will leave Canadians deeply disappointed and angry.
Let us remember it was the current Prime Minister who promised affordable housing back when he was first elected in 2015. Instead, what we have is a doubling of housing prices, rents, down payments, interest rates and mortgage payments, and another broken promise. Oh yes, the carbon tax would not cost Canadians anything and we now know from the PBO that in fact that is not true. The Prime Minister promised taxes would go down. He promised safe streets and instead we have chaos, crime and drugs on our streets and social disorder. With so many broken promises, we could go on and on. We could spend hours talking about broken promises, but the pharmacare plan is destined to be just another one of those broken promises.
Now, there is another problem. By its own definition, the pharmacare plan is intended to be a single-payer plan. That means the Government of Canada pays and it is universal, so, of course, the fear is for the 97% of Canadians who already have some kind of coverage, typically through their union plan or company plan, or they may have bought coverage. They would now lose that coverage because the pharmacare plan that is being proposed by the current Liberal government is a very narrow one. It would cover a very small number of medicines when, in fact, most plans across Canada are expansive. Now, it looks like the government wants to insert itself and introduce a plan that would actually cannibalize many of the other plans across Canada. There has been no consultation with the insurance industry and there has been no consultation with the provinces.
Let us remember that health care is the purview of the provinces and yet we have the government starting to step into dental care and pharmacare. That is on top of all the billions and billions of dollars in health care transfers every single year. Somehow, the provinces have not been consulted adequately. We know that some provinces are already providing additional pharmacare support and some provincial leaders are saying, “Listen, instead, give us the cash because we are already providing these services.” Others are saying, “Listen, we have a long list of priorities for our health care system and that is not the top priority. We have a number of other priorities.” For example, how about that mental health funding that was supposed to come to the provinces? It has never happened. Oh, what about that palliative care funding that the Prime Minister promised to the provinces years ago? What happened to that? It is gone. Therefore, the lack of consultation with the provinces and repeated stepping into areas that are the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces is, I believe, leading us down this road where, without a fiscal plan that will lead us back to budget balance, we continue to heap more spending onto the taxpayer and that is unsustainable.
This pharmacare program is a big program, like so many other programs that the current government tries to introduce and implement. In fact, it was the member for Kingston and the Islands who said that this program is big and complex. Well, if it is big and complex, there is one guarantee: The current Liberal government will not be able to manage it effectively. We think of all the scandals, the spending scandals, GC Strategies, the ArriveCAN scandal and the TMX pipeline that went seven times over budget after the Liberal government purchased that pipeline.
This is the question that Canadians have to ask themselves: Do we trust the current Liberal government and the Prime Minister to manage a pharmacare program that is billions of dollars in the coming years? Do we trust them to manage this program efficiently and effectively? I believe the answer from Canadians would be a resounding no.
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- Jun/3/24 5:27:51 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, there is the contrast right there from the member. The Conservative Party does not see the national role with regard to health care, even though we have the Canada Health Act and even though the member cannot point out any Constitution that says the federal government does not play a role in health care.
The Conservatives oppose the dental plan. They oppose the pharmacare plan. They oppose the $200 billion we have committed to the provinces over the next 10 years for future generations of health care delivery. Canadians will have a very clear choice to make whenever that next election is, which is going to be, in good part, based on the Conservatives' hidden agenda on health care. Some of that agenda was just unveiled by the member opposite, who made it very clear the Conservative Reform Party of Canada does not support the type of health care system Canadians expect from the national government in working with the provinces.
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- Jun/3/24 5:29:01 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, that is simply preposterous. In fact, what I think I heard the member do just now is actually suggest there be constitutional reform to make health care the purview of the federal government instead of the provinces. Now that is a huge step. It is pretty clear and acknowledged across the country, and if one asks the provinces, they will acknowledge it, that health care is a provincial responsibility. Yes, there is a choice Canadians will have to make. In fact, we have asked the Liberal government time and time again to let Canadians make that choice now and to let us have a carbon tax election now. It refuses to do so. Why? Its members are afraid of losing. We, as Conservatives, can do much better on the health care front than these Liberals have done over the past failed nine years.
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- Jun/3/24 5:29:59 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member for Winnipeg North is wrong when he talks about the national government, because Quebeckers' national government is in Quebec City. This is the federal government. We know that the reason the federal government is interfering in health is because of a loophole in the Constitution called the federal spending power. This is the only federation in the world that has not regulated that in one way or another, because the federal government is predatory and invasive toward the provinces.
The federal government's role is clear. It is to take Quebeckers' money, write a cheque and transfer it to the Government of Quebec and to the provinces so that they can provide care, because the federal government is incapable of providing care. When it does so, particularly for the military, that care is inefficient, ineffective and very costly.
Here is my question for my Conservative colleague. If and when his party takes office, will it commit to respecting the federal government's constitutional role, meeting the demands of all of the provinces and territories and substantially increasing unconditional health transfers to the provinces?
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- Jun/3/24 5:31:05 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I can assure the member that a future Conservative government will respect the role of the provinces. However, I did hear him say one thing, and he is correct, which is that the Liberal Party and the member who just spoke want to do violence to the Constitution. That is how it was translated: violence to the Constitution. That will be the story in the next election. It is going to be the fact that the Liberal Party wants to trample on the rights of the provinces and usurp the role of the provinces. Shame on him for even suggesting that.
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- Jun/3/24 5:31:49 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have a good deal of respect for the member for Abbotsford, so it is disappointing to hear he does not support some of the core tenets of universal health care in Canada. Of course health care is a shared jurisdiction. Health care delivery is the responsibility of the provinces, but setting national standards and providing funding for health care has always been the purview of the federal government.
One of the core pieces of this legislation we are debating is the fact that universal pharmacare would follow the principles of the Canada Health Act. Does he not accept one of the core tenets of the Canada Health Act and the way in which universal health care has been delivered in Canada since that act came into effect has been that the federal government has a responsibility to set standards and deliver funding, which is precisely what this legislation before us would accomplish?
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- Jun/3/24 5:32:53 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the delivery of health care is the purview of the provinces. That is indisputable. The provinces have affirmed that time and time again, and so has the Supreme Court of Canada.
However, I would suggest that the premise that somehow the universality of health care is at stake here is preposterous. It is ridiculous to suggest that. We in the Conservative Party believe in universal coverage of health care for every single Canadian.
An hon. member: Oh, oh!
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- Jun/3/24 5:33:31 p.m.
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The hon. member for Mirabel on a point of order.
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- Jun/3/24 5:33:40 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we all like the member for Winnipeg North, but there are times when we need a modicum of decorum. I think the word “crazy” that was shouted here in the House at the member for Abbotsford was inappropriate.
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- Jun/3/24 5:33:52 p.m.
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If I heard correctly, it was “that is crazy”.
It did not necessarily mean that someone was being called crazy.
Resuming debate, the hon. member for Regina—Lewvan has the floor.
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Madam Speaker, it is pleasure to rise to speak to Bill C-64 for a second time. I spoke at second reading of this bill on Thursday evening, and I am happy to speak to third reading of the pharmacare pamphlet.
I would like to repeat some of my remarks made during my speech at second reading. I have asked, time and time again, for any of the NDP-Liberal costly coalition members to tell me how many provincial ministers asked for a pharmacare bill at a federal-provincial-territorial meeting. Not one of the Liberal ministers, Liberal members or NDP members actually answered me. Quite frankly, they did not want to say out loud that the answer is zero. This was not at the top of a wish list for any of the provincial health ministers.
I have been talking with our health minister in Saskatchewan. He still has no details about what this pharmacare pamphlet would look like or how it would affect the people of Saskatchewan. The biggest fear at the provincial level is that coverage would lessen in Saskatchewan. They have done a good job of building health care back up in Saskatchewan after the nineties, when the NDP ruined health care in Saskatchewan, which I will get to later in my speech. The provincial health ministers are asking, “Where are the details?”
We have talked about how the federal Liberal government continues to bring in bills without any consultation. We have seen it in agriculture, in oil and gas, and even with the budget. At the agriculture committee on Thursday, I asked the agriculture minister about who he consulted in the ag sector when it came to increasing the capital gains tax exemption from a half to two-thirds. I have not gotten a straight answer from a lot of the Liberal ministers at committee, but to that minister's credit, he said that he did not even know that it was in the budget. A senior minister in the government did not know what was going to be in budget 2024.
I have had the honour of serving in the Government of Saskatchewan, and I know there is quite a process to get a budget approved. It goes through Treasury Board finalization, then through cabinet finalization, then through caucus finalization, and then back to cabinet for a final sign-off.
My colleague, the member for Abbotsford, who gave a great speech, was in government, and I think he probably saw most of what was going to be in the budget before it came out. When a senior minister who has been here for a long time, some might say too long of a time, admitted that senior ranking Liberals did not see the budget before it came out, I was dumbfounded. It was unbelievable.
It does not surprise me, then, that this bill was brought forward with very little consultation with anyone. We all know this was signed off on, on the back of a napkin, to placate the junior NDP partners, so they would prop up the corrupt government for years, or at least until the member for Burnaby South gets his pension. We know what this is about, and it is to ensure that the NDP-Liberal costly coalition stays in power. This is the price Canadians are going to pay.
Right now, 27 million Canadians are anxious about losing some of the health coverage they have right now as they have health coverage that they want to keep. I will admit that 1.1 million Canadians are under-insured or do not have insurance. Why does the government not focus on that? We could have had something rolled out that supplemented the provincial government programs. Instead, the costly Liberal coalition government always wants to be the one that rides in on the white horse, saying, “We are going to save you. We have a national plan.”
We have a national day care plan. A friend of mine is now number 300 on the wait-list in Regina, which is not that big of a city. The government has made day care spots less available in my city of Regina, Saskatchewan.
The federal government has a dental plan that no dentist wants to sign off on. I have a letter from the Saskatchewan Dental Hygienists' Association, where 99% of dental assistants and dental hygienists are female, and there was not one consultation with any of those stakeholder groups about what they should do or if they thought the dental care plan was a good idea. Once again, there was no consultation. This is a recurring theme.
We have a national lunch program for which the Liberals did not do any consultations with any school boards. In Regina, there are a lot of great corporate citizens who donate a lot of money to lunch programs. When we got together as a group and talked about this, I asked if anyone knew how many lunch programs were in our city. The Regina Food Bank covers some programs. Mosaic Market covers some programs. Nutrien covers some programs. If we put all those programs together, we could do a lot of good and almost get to where we need to so all kids could have food when they go to school.
There was no consultation on that either. The Liberals just come in on their white horses and think they are saviours. It is almost like someone over there has a God complex, one might say. They always want to be the one walking in and saving people, but they do not work with anyone else across the country.
Let us get to the pharmacare program. Once again, it is a pharmacare program, with no consultation, that no one asked for at a provincial level. My friend for Winnipeg North talked about how health care is not within provincial jurisdiction, but it is. Health care delivery is within provincial jurisdiction. He knows that, as he is a former MLA. Money transfers come from the federal government, but the day-to-day operational delivery of health care is one hundred per cent a provincial jurisdiction. He knows that.
It is interesting for the Liberals to bring in a national program, or a pamphlet, really, that covers two things, and then act like they are the conquering heroes. Who asked for this at a provincial level? I hope my friend from Winnipeg North will ask me a couple questions about that.
There is one more thing when it comes to health care in our country. The biggest threat to health care in Canada is whenever there is a provincial NDP government. The NDP in Saskatchewan devastated health care. When it was in government, it closed 52 hospitals in my province. It closed 1,200 long-term care beds in Saskatchewan during the nineties. It fired 1,000 nurses, hundreds of doctors, and rural Saskatchewan was divided.
The NDP is the pioneer of our two-tiered health care systems. In Saskatchewan, there is much different health care if someone is in rural Saskatchewan compared to urban Saskatchewan. The NDP went so far as to close the Plains Health Centre hospital in Regina. It was one of the best hospitals in the city and was the newest hospital. The NDP closed it because it was servicing too many rural Saskatchewanians. It was unbelievable.
We now have a government in B.C., an NDP provincial government, that is pioneering a pharmacare program, but it has it backward. It is giving B.C. residents free drugs that are killing them, instead of having a plan in place to give residents affordable drugs that would be life-saving. That is what B.C. is doing right now.
Instead of putting money toward life-saving drugs, the Liberals want a safe supply, which I do not think exists. They continue to spend taxpayers' dollars in British Columbia to give drugs to people who are killing themselves with those drugs. That is so opposite to what a government should be doing. The Liberals want to come in like they are champions of pharmacare. They should talk to some of their B.C. cousins about what is going on in that province. They should take some of the money they are spending putting illicit hard drugs on the street, and maybe supplement that with some programs that would give drugs to people that would help save their lives instead of end their lives.
I would end with one more conversation about how consultation is so disregarded by the government. Obviously, the NDP are going to vote for this terrible piece of legislation. The Liberals will vote for it.
One thing I would say to members is to please consult with the health ministers of the provincial governments because Saskatchewan is doing a great job. It has diabetes coverage for everyone up to age 25. We have a $25 cap on senior drugs, a program that helps seniors make sure they get the medication they need.
Provinces are in charge of the delivery of the health care system. Please let them keep that in their domain, and do the proper thing and consult with the health ministers in this country.
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- Jun/3/24 5:43:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I can clearly say I have never, in my political career, ever said that the provinces do not play a role in health care. Just because one of the member's Conservative friends tells him I said that, does not necessarily mean I said it. I can assure the member I understand and appreciate the important, critical role provinces play in health care.
The member asked where the idea came from. Back in 2017, I was out getting signatures on petitions. People not only want the federal government to play a role in health care, but they also want the federal government to move forward with a national pharmacare program, ideally one where we could have a multitude of medications in the program, but that could take time. That would require provincial involvement.
Does the member not agree that the vast majority of Canadians want to see the federal government's presence in health care?
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- Jun/3/24 5:44:58 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I think he doth protest too much. He did say that the provinces do not have a role in health care. I believe the federal transfers are part of a responsibility the federal government has to make sure that it has the proper money to run the health care system in the provinces. The member never answered my question. I would love for him to table the information, the correspondence, regarding which health ministers, how many health ministers, wrote to this long, nine-year costly coalition, wrote to the federal health minister, to say that the first thing one should do after the 2020 election would be to try to bring in a pharmacare plan. The answer is zero.
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- Jun/3/24 5:45:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his fascinating speech.
Obviously, health care is an exclusive provincial jurisdiction, but there is something called the fiscal imbalance. We know that the most important responsibilities of a welfare state are incumbent on the provinces but that the revenue largely goes to Ottawa. That means funds must unconditionally be transferred to the provinces. During the debate, the Conservatives said that they wanted to respect provincial jurisdictions and stop interfering.
There is an expression known as “starve the beast”. That suggests that is what they are going to do. They seem to be hinting that they are going to cut our funding if Quebec does its own thing when it comes to health care. If the Conservatives should take power one day, will they commit to significantly increasing unconditional health transfers to the provinces and Quebec, as the premiers of the 10 provinces and three territories are calling for?
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- Jun/3/24 5:46:44 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I had a colleague in Saskatchewan who always had a great saying, which is that the best indication of future behaviour is past behaviour. I believe, despite Liberal rhetoric, that the health care transfers continued to increase under former prime minister Harper. They were maybe not as high as they would have liked, but there was an increase every year to the provinces when it came to health care transfers. That was our past performance, and I would expect that would stay the same.
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Madam Speaker, the member for Regina—Lewvan was quite adamant that health care delivery is the purview of the provinces. I think that when he reads the bill, Bill C-64, he will be delighted to find that, in the pharmacare proposal that we are debating today, the delivery of pharmacare is delivered by the provinces.
The other thing I think he will be quite delighted with is the fact that provinces will have the ability to sign on or not to sign on with the pharmacare plan that is being debated. I think the only challenge he is going to have is that, when the Province of Manitoba and the Province of British Columbia sign on and when their residents start receiving free contraception and free diabetes medication and devices, the residents of his province, his constituents, are going to start asking why they are not able to tap into the benefits of universal pharmacare.
I would just ask him what he is going to say to them in those situations.
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Madam Speaker, I do like the little cute condescension from the NDP: “when he reads the bill”. The bill, Bill C-64, is four pages. I did read the bill. It is really cute when they have that passive-aggressive tone. It is adorable.
If they sign on and if they do take the universal single-payer coverage, what are his constituents going to say when their coverage is less than what they had before?
What is he going to say to 27 million Canadians who are losing better coverage because they are going to add coverage that is not as good as what they have right now? They would have a lot of explaining to do to their constituents when they try to take away the coverage they have right now and give them less coverage.
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Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Milton.
I want to address what I would suggest is the ultimate potential assault on health care by the Conservative-Reform Party of Canada. For the record, to be very clear, one needs to look at what the member for Abbotsford said today, which has been repeated in many different ways by different members. I have often talked about the hidden Conservative-Reform agenda.
I personally see health care as an important issue going into the next federal election, and my intention is to point out the contrast. When I say that the Conservative Party has crazy policies, we should think about them saying that the federal government has no constitutional role. One would think they were separatists, like the Bloc. They believe the federal government should just be an ATM machine, hand over the cash and say nothing about health care because the federal government has no role to play. Both the Conservatives and the Bloc believe that there is no role for the federal government to play in health care.
Then, they say that it is a constitutional God-given right that provinces are the only ones that have anything to do with health care. That is absolutely wrong. I would ask members to cite a Supreme Court of Canada decision that says that the Canada Health Act is in violation of the Constitution. I would like members to tell me which premier or which province took the government to the Supreme Court and had a favourable ruling on that issue. The simple answer is that it has not happened. That is why the Conservative spin of misinformation continues to flow, and that is most unfortunate.
Unlike the Conservative Party, Liberals understand and value the important role that the federal government in Ottawa plays. In terms of the pharmacare program, it is interesting to hear from different opposition members, the Conservatives and the Bloc, as they have that unholy alliance on Bill C-64 for different reasons. We have well over 100 policies on pharmacare, depending on what province people are in or which company they work for. There are many different types of policies facing the pharmacare issue.
The idea of a national pharmacare program is nothing new. The Prime Minister is moving the issue forward. That is what Bill C-64 is all about. It recognizes there is a need for the national government to work, where it can, with provinces, to develop a national pharmacare program that has similarities in all regions of the country. The way I see it, there are two areas where we are focusing a great deal of attention today. I see it as a step forward. I believe that provinces will continue to look at what is being proposed and will come on board.
The arguments I hear from the Conservative Party today are the types of arguments one would have heard generations ago regarding health care when public health was brought in. Those are the types of arguments of deniers. I suspect we will never hear the Conservative Party saying they are going to get rid of the Canada Health Act. Maybe a good opposition day motion would be what people have to say about the Canada Health Act and whether they support it or not.
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant: You could ask when you are in opposition.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the member across the way says that we cannot propose a motion of that nature because we are not in opposition. Maybe in 10 years, or whenever it might happen, we will have the opportunity.
I suspect that even Conservative reformers, the very far right, would recognize that Canadians treasure and value the health care system we have today. They see it as a part of our Canadian identity. The federal government played a critical role in that. It was the Province of Saskatchewan that led the way in ensuring that the federal government here in Ottawa would be able to expand upon it so that all Canadians would be able to benefit by it. Bringing forward the idea that if someone has diabetes, no matter where they live in Canada, they would have public assistance in terms of those medications and have public support, I see that as a positive thing.
Today, the reality is that it depends on what province and what sort of private insurance that someone may have, maybe not as much of a deductible. It varies across the land. Many Canadians do not even have the opportunity to have virtually any subsidy, in terms of the medications required for diabetes.
It has been reported that just over 3.5 million Canadians are dealing with diabetes today. I heard that as many as 25% of those individuals reported that because of the cost, they are not taking all the medications they should be taking to deal with their diabetes. What is the consequence of not being able to take the medications? It could mean someone could prematurely lose their eyesight and become blind. It could mean having an amputation as a direct result. Again, affordability depends on the province where a person lives or on the company the person works for.
We have a national government saying that it believes this is a wonderful, positive step forward to see strong national leadership in providing this medication. This would profoundly change, in a positive way, the lives of many Canadians in every region of the country, including all provinces. This is factual. This would ultimately put us in a better light moving forward. This should come as no surprise.
We have had different social groups, such as unions, come to Parliament. They have been advocating for it. We have had a standing committee deal with it. We have had it incorporated into budgets. We have had statements from ministers of finance in regard to this, and the Prime Minister has been talking about it for a number of years. I have brought forward many petitions on the issue. There is no surprise here. If members actually consulted with their constituents, they would find that there is a wide spectrum, in terms of appetite, for the federal government not only to continue dealing with this, but also to consider other possibilities.
Why is it that the Conservative reformers feel that the federal government's role in health care should be diminished? They are not only against pharmacare but also against the dental plan. They are also against the commitment to provide $200 billion for 10 years for future generations of health and to provide the cash resources to support provinces. That is what I hope to be talking a lot about in the next federal election in 16 to 18 months. I believe that a vast majority of Canadians are behind this policy.
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- Jun/3/24 5:59:12 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am always enlightened when I hear the member for Winnipeg North say those words on the floor of the House of Commons, because he must be the only member from his party who can actually address these things. We hear him many times over, and I thank him again for those comments.
There is something my party and I are united on as far as what we oppose is concerned. We oppose these ongoing deficits that are growing and getting to be more and more of an impact on Canadians, especially with inflation. Inflation is going to run this country into the ground and, frankly, make everything more expensive, including the drugs that the member is talking about. They are going to cost more and more, and we are going to be in a spiral as we go forward here. We are united against ongoing deficits and ongoing spending.
The member has not even looked at how much this is going to cost the treasury going forward; it is only a guess. Where is it going to stop? We cannot spend any more. We are just going to keep spending ourselves into eternity here. Can he tell us where the end is in sight?
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