SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 331 - Jun/13/24

Mr. Michael Kram (Regina—Wascana, CPC)

Jun/13/24 1:33:00 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-234

Madam Speaker, I will start by saying that I will be sharing my time today with the hon. member for Portage—Lisgar. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in favour today of a very reasonable motion that I believe members of Parliament from all parties should support, moved today by the leader of the official opposition. When making any major decision, it is important to weigh the costs and the benefits. That is true in the private sector, true in life in general and especially true for politicians when we are deciding on government policy. That includes environmental policy, and the Liberals' carbon tax, their hallmark policy meant to address global warming and climate change, should be no exception. When the Liberals introduced their carbon tax in 2019, it was set at $20 per tonne of CO2 equivalents, a little over 4¢ on a litre of gas. Since then, the Liberals have increased the carbon tax every year so that it now stands at $80 per tonne, about 18¢ per litre. The Liberals say that they will continue to increase the carbon tax every year for the rest of the decade until it reaches $170 per tonne, about 40¢ on a litre of gas. To look at it another way, if the gas tank of a typical car holds about 50 litres of gas, that means that in 2030, the average Canadian will pay an extra $20 on a tank of gas each and every time he or she fills up the car at the gas station. However, the carbon tax applies to so much more than just filling up one's tank with gas. It applies to home heating. It applies to heating of commercial businesses. It applies to heating of schools, hospitals and municipal buildings. It applies to farmers who have to heat their barns and dry their grain, which is why the Conservatives have been advocating for the passage of Bill C-234 to exempt farmers' grain drying and barn heating from the carbon tax so that these costs would not be passed on to consumers. In fact last winter, Environment and Climate Change Canada was even going so far as to contact pizzeria and bagel shop owners about their wood-burning ovens, to see whether they should be subject to the carbon tax. Fortunately, it did not go through with the measure, but it shows just how wide-ranging and sweeping the Liberals' carbon tax has been on every aspect of Canadians' lives. It seemed perfectly reasonable that, last April, the Parliamentary Budget Officer requested from Environment and Climate Change Canada its internal analysis of the economic impacts of the carbon tax. When Environment and Climate Change Canada responded last month, there was one sentence in the reply letter that was very troubling. It read, “The data the Department is providing contains unpublished information. As such, I request you to ensure that this information is used for your office’s internal purposes only and is not published or further distributed”. I see no good reason for the government's analysis of the economic impacts of the carbon tax to be withheld from members of Parliament or from Canadians at large. If we as elected officials are responsible for making the best decisions possible for Canadians, if we are responsible for weighing the costs and the benefits of the policy, then it makes no sense for the costing analysis to be withheld. This morning, because of today's motion, the Liberal government released at least part of the information. We now know, according to the government, that the carbon tax is costing the Canadian economy $20 billion per year, roughly $1,200 per household. I have to say that it is extremely frustrating that a government that once claimed to be transparent by default is still playing games and blocking access to important information. Now that I have outlined some of the costs of the carbon tax, I think that it is fair for Canadians to ask, “What are the benefits?” The stated objective of the carbon tax is to prevent global warming and climate change, so this question has to be asked: “By how many degrees Celsius has global warming decreased as a result of Canada's carbon tax?” That question is fundamental to the whole issue. Is it half a degree Celsius? Is it 0.1°C? Is it 0.01°C? Canadians deserve to know what we are getting for that extra $20 on a tank of gas. I would like to read a quote from the government's report entitled “How Pollution Pricing Reduces Emissions”, which was referred to in the department's response to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. The first line of the report reads, “Every day, we see the increasing impacts of climate change and they’re costing Canadians more and more.” Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Jun/13/24 1:38:53 p.m.
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Order, please. The member for Timmins—James Bay is rising on a point of order.

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Mr. Charlie Angus

Jun/13/24 1:39:02 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would sincerely like to apologize. I was just so gobsmacked by the idiocy—

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Jun/13/24 1:39:10 p.m.
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The apology is accepted. The hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa has the floor.

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Mr. Dan Mazier

Jun/13/24 1:39:19 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I wonder what he was apologizing for. Was it for insulting my colleague or not?

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Jun/13/24 1:39:26 p.m.
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I accepted the apology, and we are done. The hon. member for Regina—Wascana has the floor.

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Mr. Michael Kram

Jun/13/24 1:39:42 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, let me reiterate the quote from the department's report. It reads, “Every day, we see the increasing impacts of climate change”. Right off the bat, one has to infer that the carbon tax must not be working very well if the department's own report is telling us that every day, we we are seeing increasing impacts of climate change. The report continues, “A price on pollution is widely recognized as the most efficient means to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that are contributing to the more intense wildfires, droughts, and floods caused by climate change.” That is fair enough. If that is the position the government wants to take, then that is fine. All we are asking on this side of the House is if the government could please show its work, all of its work, not just what the minister grudgingly released this morning. It should not take a full day of parliamentary debate to drag the government, kicking and screaming, into being transparent. The report mentions wildfires, so that raises this question: how many fewer wildfires have we had as a result of the carbon tax? The report also mentions droughts. How many fewer droughts have we had as a result of the carbon tax? The report mentions floods. How many fewer floods have we had as a result of the carbon tax? I do not know the answer to these questions, but I strongly suspect that the effect of Canada's carbon tax on all of these things is infinitesimally insignificant. However, if Environment and Climate Change Canada has done some analysis and some studies to shed light on these subjects, I, as a member of Parliament, would certainly like to read them, without having to resort to a full day of parliamentary debate. It is very reasonable for Canadians to ask if there is a better way. I believe there is: technology, not taxes. Canada has tremendous potential for the development and application of new environmentally friendly technologies. At the environment committee, experts shared research with committee members about the benefits of irrigation and how increased agriculture production can sequester more carbon out of the atmosphere with improved irrigation. In the southeast corner of my home province of Saskatchewan, there is a major carbon capture and storage facility at a coal-burning power plant, which allows for the existing infrastructure to remain in place while storing carbon under the ground instead of releasing it into the air. In northern Saskatchewan, there are massive reserves of uranium, which can be used in nuclear reactors to generate electricity without any emissions. However, if we are going to plot the best way forward and make good public policy decisions, then we need to have good information on which to base our decisions. That means the government must be transparent by default, as it promised to do years ago. Therefore, I support the motion that would require the government to produce all of these relevant documents.

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Mr. Dan Mazier (Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, CPC)

Jun/13/24 1:43:25 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I know there was some harassment going on by the NDP, but I came to the member's defence. It was a wonderful speech. There has been a statement made around here all morning about getting facts out, and the Liberals are now claiming they can prove that they have supplied the documents showing that emissions are actually being reduced by the carbon tax. Meanwhile, we have an answer. We asked a direct question of the government, of the environment minister. We asked, “does the government measure the annual amount of emissions that are directly reduced from...carbon pricing”, carbon levy, or whatever they want to call it. “Carbon tax” is what we more affectionately call it. Here is their answer, and I think the Speaker would find this very interesting: “the government does not measure the annual amount of emissions that are directly reduced by federal carbon pricing.” How does the math work? How does the science work? What is the rationale of any Canadian expecting that this carbon tax would have any impact on reducing emissions?

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Mr. Michael Kram

Jun/13/24 1:44:34 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I enjoy working with my hon. colleague on the environment committee. I think it is important for people to understand that today's debate is about just one small piece of the puzzle we are trying to put together. We have requested some particular documents, and the government grudgingly provided them this morning, but this is a regular occurrence at the environment committee. We are constantly asking the minister and the department to show their work, to show how the carbon tax has been increasing and to show what effect it is having on emissions. They keep stonewalling. We can never seem to get a straight answer out of the government, and it is extremely frustrating for members of Parliament who are trying to do their jobs.

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Ms. Leah Taylor Roy (Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, Lib.)

Jun/13/24 1:45:24 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member opposite made a speech that referred to the fact that we have not seen an immediate impact from the price on pollution program. He mentioned that he and his colleague, who asked the other question, are both on the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. I was wondering if perhaps the member could explain a little to us about his knowledge of how we got to this climate crisis, how long it took for the inventory to build up and what the impacts of climate change are. I am sure that he has done a lot of reading about this issue, since he is on the environment committee. I would really be interested to hear his perspective on why he believes that a crisis that took decades to build, with emissions that Canada, as well as the rest of the world, has been putting into the air, would be solved in a matter of years.

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Mr. Michael Kram

Jun/13/24 1:46:22 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I never said that I believed that the carbon tax would solve this problem in a matter of years. It seems that this argument has been very strongly implied by the Liberals on the other side of the House. What Conservatives have been saying for years is that man-made CO2 emissions have been happening for a couple of centuries now. This is a very long-term problem that should be solved with long-term solutions, in particular the development and the application of new technologies. However, what the Liberals have been doing over the last few years is increasing the carbon tax, year after year, and I think it is very reasonable for Canadians to ask what they are getting for all of the pain and suffering.

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Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)

Jun/13/24 1:47:19 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the Conservatives say that they want to support Canadians on the question around affordability of oil and gas, yet the Conservatives voted against the NDP's motion to take the GST off home heating. Why?

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Gst
Heating

Mr. Michael Kram

Jun/13/24 1:47:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I cannot recall the particulars of that particular motion, but I think it is safe to say that Conservatives are in favour of making life more affordable for Canadians. That includes reducing and eliminating the carbon tax and not jacking up the capital gains tax, as the government announced earlier this week.

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Mr. Branden Leslie (Portage—Lisgar, CPC)

Jun/13/24 1:48:14 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is a privilege to rise today. I thought I would start with a bit of a recap as to how we got to this place I am a proud member of the environment committee, one of the few on our side that brings a heavy dose of common sense and rationality to a committee that is generally full of activists who care more about reducing emissions at all costs than about economic growth. We have, for months, been pushing to have the Liberal government release the economic and emissions reduction modelling to the committee and to Canadians. We have been stonewalled. On occasion, we have been able to make breakthroughs with our opposition partners. However, at the end of the day, the government has provided us with nothing that we have asked for. In fact, as it relates to today's motion, I happened to have a meeting with the PBO's office just hours after he appeared at the finance committee to discuss the change in the data that he was using for his economic modelling. The Liberal government was freaking out about a so-called mistake, but the reality was that their data aligned completely with the government's. In fact, it was a secret, hidden report that had been handed over to the PBO, but he was gagged. He was not allowed to hand over that Excel document that showed, on a province-by-province, sector-by-sector basis, what the financial implications to the Canadian economy were. Therefore, we move forward to today, when we are bringing forward this important motion. The Liberal government decided that today is the day. I do not think, without today's motion, that it was going to release this dataset that we have long been asking for. This dataset is raw data. It is not convoluted, watered down and confused by Liberal talking points. It shows, just as we have been saying, that the carbon tax is severely inhibiting our economic growth and is making Canadians poorer. The PBO has repeatedly stated that he is confident in the analysis, which they have presented in the most recent report, that shows that Canadians are worse off under the carbon tax, because it aligns with this document. We have been proven right today by the government finally relinquishing this data. It is absurd on so many levels. I have only been here just under a year and have seen the culture of secrecy and the hiding of any pieces of information that do not fit the narrative of the Liberal government. Its hypocrisy knows no bounds. Let us recall that this was the government that was going to be “open by default”. It was going to usher in this new era of transparency in government. It was going to do things differently. However, time and time again, it has failed to live up to that, and in fact, it is getting worse. It seems as though every time there is a new scandal or a new cover-up, Liberals say, “Hold my beer. I have a better one.” Then today, the Liberals come out and want credit as heroes for releasing the information, which was gathered and put together by taxpayer-funded bureaucrats, that shows that our economy is in fact worse off under their policy. They have the gall to come out and say, “Look at us. We are transparent”, but it is only because Conservatives brought forward today's motion. The report's data shows that over $25 billion of our economic GDP will be lost by 2030 under the Liberal plan. Of course, this does not include all of the other job-killing, radical policy ideas that the Liberal government has cooked up over the past nine years, which have destroyed economic growth in Canada. Our GDP per capita has declined in four consecutive quarters, and Statistics Canada just revealed that Canada's unemployment rate has also increased. In fact, for jobs to keep up with the population growth, Canada would have needed an additional 33,000 jobs in May, and we came nowhere near it. Meanwhile, the United States created 272,000 jobs within its economy, and our economy continues to fall behind. There are warning signs all over the place, as long as people are willing to not stick their heads in the ground and ignore them. It is obvious that Canadians are struggling and that our economy is sluggish, if growing at all. This is according to the Statistic Canada and the International Monetary Fund reports that show just how perilous our falling GDP per capita numbers and problems truly are. We are experiencing the worst per person income drop in the G7 over the last five years. The Americans' GDP per person has grown by more than 8% since 2019, while we have fallen. If we compare ourselves on a state-by-state basis, Canada ranks among the poorest states, including places like Alabama. Simply put, our economy is vastly underperforming our greatest competitor, our greatest neighbour, but most importantly, our most integrated trading partner. I wish I could show the chart that shows that growth here in the House because it truly is staggering, and it is not surprising to see when that separation of GDP per person began. If our economy had simply grown at the average rate, Canadians would be $4,200 richer than the costly coalition has left them. I think I and all of my colleagues know this, but my friends know this too. They recognize that, despite having good jobs, they are struggling. They are certainly not saving. They are simply falling behind. It is one of the steepest falls in the standard of living in the history of our country. We are in a cost of living crisis. We can look at the cost of groceries. I assume all of us go to the grocery store; we see the same thing. We can put ourselves in the shoes of people who are trying to support a family and understand the challenges that they are going through when they are choosing products, whether they are healthy or not, for their children in the grocery store each and every week. The Liberal-NDP government's record deficits have driven interest rates sky-high. The dream of home ownership is simply dead for so many Canadians. Canadians are struggling to stay afloat. What do the Prime Minister and his coalition partners do? They give us a 23% carbon tax hike. That is the anvil the Liberals are going to throw Canadians; they can sink or swim, and good luck to them. Of course, there are the increases on the prices of gas, groceries, home heating and everything else. It all adds up. Millions of people in this country are using food banks each and every month. It is hardly the country that many of us recognize and certainly not the one I grew up in. In what crazy world does it make sense to raise taxes, yet again, on our job creators, on our students, on our families and on our seniors? There is a growing, and rightfully so, groundswell of support to scrap the carbon tax once and for all. It comes from provincial Liberals, provincial NDP members, provincial Conservatives and the federal Conservatives. We all recognize, as Canadians do, that a 23% carbon tax hike at a time of economic stagnation and, for many, devastation, simply makes no sense. It lacks common sense. Let us not forget that, as it relates to the carbon tax, there are over 130 first nations in Ontario taking the Prime Minister and the government to court over that carbon tax. It is obvious that, in this chamber, we are the only party that will axe the tax, and, after the next carbon tax election, I cannot wait for us to fulfill that promise. Every day, in the meantime, I am hearing from constituents. I think all of my colleagues undoubtedly are. If members opposite are willing to say that their constituents are not saying that they are frustrated, that they are tired, that they are feeling poorer and that they are divided, I simply do not believe them. The government needs to focus on job creation and growth, putting criminals behind bars and reducing the wasteful government spending that is driving up the debt in this nation and keeping our interest rates higher for longer. The reality is it has never been clearer, at least to me and I think to most Canadians, that we are in desperate need of a new government. Canada has had the worst growth in the G7, the worst in Canada's history since the Great Depression. Housing costs have doubled, rising faster than in any other G7 nation. About 76% of youth believe they will never own a home, and millions of people are going to food banks. The government has been sabotaging our economy by taxing farmers during a food crisis, by taxing home builders during a housing crisis, by taxing doctors away from our country during a health care crisis, and by taxing small businesses, the backbone of our economy, and our job creators, during an economic growth crisis. In fact, it was recently reported that over 120,000 people have left this country. They emigrated to the United States, because they saw a better opportunity there. They saw a government that respects individual freedom and respects their ability to drive prosperity for themselves, their families and their communities. I hate to say it, but right now it seems tough to be a proud Canadian. However, I am not giving up. I am a proud Canadian. It was not like this nine years ago, and it will not be like this after the carbon tax election, because it is time to bring home the Canada we remember, the Canada we recognize, the Canada we want and the Canada we deserve.

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Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)

Jun/13/24 1:57:57 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I think it is very important to clarify something for the people at home. When we talk about requesting data from the government, we are not talking about hypersensitive data or national state secrets. We are talking about bits and bytes. We are basically talking about computer code. It is not even an Excel spreadsheet, as the member for Kingston and the Islands has said. The headline in the Globe about an hour ago was, “Household wealth jumps to record on stock rally”. We have record household wealth and we have a price on carbon, and we know the Conservatives love correlations. What does the member have to say about that correlation?

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Mr. Branden Leslie

Jun/13/24 1:58:47 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, first, in reference to the comments of my colleague, the chair of our committee, regarding data, the file that was given to the PBO was an Excel document. At that committee, we have been frustrated time and time again by a level of secrecy that is unheard of and a desire to hide every piece of evidence that does not fit with Liberal priorities. My colleague is right. There are people who have become a heck of a lot richer in this country. Their friends, the Liberal insiders, have got richer while the people across this country who are working hard and playing by the rules are the ones who are suffering each and every day. That is who we are going to fight for on this side of the aisle.

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Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)

Jun/13/24 1:59:32 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, Conservatives, of course, say that they are against the carbon tax. Last week, the NDP called on the big oil CEOs at committee to answer to Canadians for their corporate greed. Those CEOs told the committee that they support carbon pricing. The Conservatives spend so much time defending the oil and gas industry, so why are they fighting against a policy that even the CEOs say is good for Canada?

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Carbon

Mr. Branden Leslie

Jun/13/24 2:00:13 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am happy to fight against crazy, radical policy ideas that will diminish our economic growth in this country. The fact is that the NDP view wealth creation as a bad thing and jobs as a bad thing, but I will stand up against that proudly every day in this chamber.

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Mr. Wayne Long (Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.)

Jun/13/24 2:00:43 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is an honour to rise today to recognize one of southern New Brunswick's best: Senator Joseph Day. Joe grew up in Hampton, New Brunswick. He attended CMR in Saint-Jean and then went on to RMC, where he graduated in engineering. He then pursued law at Queen's University and a master's degree at Osgoode Hall Law School. Joe spent his entire career largely in law, which included roles at JDI, as chair of the New Brunswick Forest Products Commission, and in the practice of intellectual property law. In 2001, Joe got the call to serve in the Senate. For 19 years, Senator Day proudly represented New Brunswick. Always working with all sides in a strong commitment to southern New Brunswick, Joe led positive change at every level. I am proud to have called him a friend, as I know many in the House did. To Joe's family and friends, in particular his wife Georgie and his children Emilie and Fraser, I want to extend deepest condolences on behalf of everyone in the House of Commons.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)

Jun/13/24 2:01:49 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-41

Madam Speaker, Liberal government incompetence is undermining the ability of Canadian development organizations to support the world's most vulnerable people. Afghanistan and other terrorist-controlled areas in the world are often among the poorest. Canadian tax dollars go to large UN-affiliated multilateral organizations present in these areas, but private Canadian organizations are generally barred from working in the same areas. Recognizing this problem, MPs from all parties came together more than a year ago to negotiate, amend and then adopt Bill C-41. It was not perfect, but the bill created an authorization regime to allow private organizations to go to work in these hard-hit areas. We understood the urgency of getting assistance to Afghanistan before another winter. Unbelievably, the Liberals have failed to implement the bill for over a year. There are no authorizations and no applications, and there is no help. What a disgrace. The bill had a one-year review deadline, but after a year there is literally nothing to review. This probably will not make the headlines, but people on the other side of the world will die because Liberal government incompetence blocked private development assistance from getting to them.

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