I just want to thank the member for his speech earlier today. It has been an interesting afternoon. We talk about better for consumers, better for businesses—very important when affordability is an issue all across the board.

On this legislation, we talk about consumers feeling safe in the marketplace. We have a choice of where to spend our money and how to spend our money and we have to, obviously, look at spending our money wisely, and we want to make sure we give our consumers peace of mind when spending their hard-earned wages.

I’m just wondering if you can elaborate on the steps the government is taking to enhance consumer confidence and ensure that people feel safe and secure when engaging in marketplace transactions, especially when it comes down to refunds. Can you touch on that? It was a little bit in your speech.

I want to thank my colleague for his comments. I know in my practice as a lawyer over many years, contractual terms are often an issue of confusion, even amongst lawyers. So I wonder if the member can comment on the provisions in this legislation, if passed, and how that would impact standardized contract terms to make it clearer to both the consumer and the business what the terms of the contract are, what the level of enforcement is and how they will move forward.

I enjoyed the portion of time that I have been in the Legislature this afternoon listening to this bill and hearing our critic’s opinion, the member from Humber River–Black Creek.

One of the things that I was thinking about is—and talking with him, he has definitely raised it at the same time—there may be positive changes to the bill, but if people still have to go to court, they’re still incurring court costs and it’s still a barrier. Would the member not agree that there are still barriers in place from protecting those consumers who have already found themselves in a bad position?

Thank you for the question—a difficult question to answer, to say the least. As far as punishing people, that will be determined in the regulations. Price protection: I think it’s up to the consumer to do his research, and with what we have available today as far as using the Internet to come up with different pricing, that consumer has a lot more ability today to find the best price and the best product, with the best terms, online.

Thank you to the member for his speech. I appreciate that this legislation does talk about and refer to price gouging as something unconscionable. In essence, it defines price gouging as taking, let’s say, a product and comparing the price of the product to the other competitors and then looking at the range. One of the problems or challenges that I see with that is, how do you address industry-wide problems? So if a particular thing that’s being sold by an entire industry, we feel, is too expensive, how do you suggest or would you be willing to look into ways to bring down gouging across entire industries as opposed to punishing individual businesses?

Questions?

Thank you to my colleague from Cambridge for his remarks.

Speaker, I know the weather is getting a little cooler. The snow is starting to fly and has flown in some parts of this province already, and many seniors in my riding have time-shares in warmer climates. They’re obviously complicated contracts, ensuring that our seniors are protected, that they know what they’re getting in to.

Many time-share operators currently don’t offer buyback or take-back programs, so this can leave consumers locked indefinitely into an agreement, and often timeshares have little to no value on the resale market. So if the owner of the time-share falls on hard times, the costs often increase for the consumer, and nothing can be done.

My question to the member from Cambridge is, can the member please tell us what this new legislation will do in order to keep time-share owners accountable and to provide options to consumers when they are investing?

With regard to contractual disclosure—I’m sure that all members of this House have experienced something similar, and people in Essex county have talked to me about the same thing. When they’re presented with a contract, frequently, it’s a very standard contract, such as a car rental contract, and yet the provisions of the contract are buried in fine print and not readily disclosed at the top. Since you’re in something of a hurry and you think it’s a very standard form contract, you have a tendency to sign it and move on with your life. This particular legislation proposes that such contracts will be required to highlight the main provisions—at least the main provisions—so that people in situations like that will have at least the highlighted main provisions of the contract before they sign, so that they know what the main provisions are before they sign.

I invite the member to express an opinion about that. Does she think that’s going to help some of the constituents in her riding?

Thank you to my colleague for her remarks.

I know long-term leases on home-comfort appliances like HVAC have been a focus for bad actors in Ontario.

And I know our government wants to ensure, with this legislation, that all Ontarians feel protected when they make a significant purchase for their home.

We remain steadfast in our commitment to reducing costs for terminating long-term leases.

I’m pleased to see that the members opposite, in their remarks this afternoon, have been supportive of these efforts.

I was wondering if the member could elaborate on how this bill will help her constituents, who are in some of those long-term leases, with HVAC and other home-comfort appliances.

I want to thank my friend from London for her comments.

I was inspired in particular by what you were saying about the practice of how we regulate organic food. I know the organic growers were in the building last week, and I had occasion to meet with them and really enjoyed the experience. But it was yet another reminder that for consumers who go to farmers’ markets—like the Lansdowne farmers’ market, which is where I was this weekend, picking up pumpkins to carve, vegetables to roast, and all that kind of good stuff. A lot of those folks who go the extra mile of preparing organic products for the marketplace don’t get the recognition they deserve. There’s no credential to prevent large operators like Loblaws or Metro from labelling their products as organic, despite not having gone to the same trouble.

So I’m wondering if the member could elaborate on how this bill could be improved to make sure that organic produce, organic food, is really organic.

Questions?

Further debate?

I just want to say, on a different note, that I want to congratulate the Unifor members at Stellantis who have a tentative agreement. More than half of those workers were at the Windsor assembly plant, and I’m thrilled that, while it was a short strike, they won’t be on the line any longer.

I’m wondering if the member has seen anything in this bill—since it talks about being better for consumers—that actually stops stores and these large corporations; for instance, the Westons, who have been found guilty of price gouging or price-fixing. Is there anything in this bill from the government that would actually stop these companies from price gouging consumers and bring the cost of groceries down; of produce, whether that’s organic or otherwise?

I’m going to repeat a question I asked earlier. I was talking about my own constituents in Essex county, who are getting more and more involved in their credit ratings and their credit scores—because that, in modern society, has become far more important and more common for people to check and for people to use. I think that people in my riding will welcome the initiative that goes along with this bill—to open up the access to credit ratings and credit scores on a more frequent basis for consumers. I know that’s going to be welcome in my riding of Essex, with my constituents.

I would like to ask the member if she thinks that the constituents in her riding will welcome greater access to their credit scores.

I thank the member from Essex for that question.

Absolutely, when the minister was talking about this legislation, he said that contracts should be clear, simple and dynamic. As an insurance broker, and I’ll circle back to that—I know the member from Essex was a lawyer. Contracts are very important, and the language has to be simple language, but legal language.

And so having these contracts where you have the highlights, so that people understand what the crux of the contract is, is very important, because nobody wants to sign a contract and feel like they’ve been duped. I don’t think businesses want that, and I don’t think consumers want that.

The other piece I want to highlight is that the minister talked about when people have different languages so they’re not able to enter into these contracts, leases for utilities or appliances. I wanted to ask the minister—again, just as a curious question—are they going to ask businesses to produce contracts in different languages? Unless you have someone—and again, everybody is trying to do the best they can, on both sides—explain that contract on the phone or in person to someone, about these leases on these HVACs, how are they going to truly understand? If it’s not in their language or it’s not their first language, what’s the fix for that under the Better for Consumers, Better for Businesses Act, Bill 142?

In the bill, there are some fines that are increased—but no, there is nothing specifically in the bill about how to stop business from price gouging when it comes to food, organic or otherwise.

However, I want to say this: When you access your credit ratings or your consumer scores, you have to put in very sensitive information. There is something in here that talks about privacy in your act—but I believe you have to put your SIN number. That is, to me, something you never want to give out unless you absolutely have to. Yes, access to your credit scores and consumer ratings is paramount, but the information we’re giving people—make sure that’s absolutely locked down and no one can ever get access to that. Again, we have to protect consumers from these scams, and when you get someone’s SIN number—it’s a terrible outcome to try to fix that. It’s welcome that people can have access to this. They can make better decisions and make sure that businesses don’t put a black mark on their credit or consumer report wrongfully.

I’ll point back to the NOSIs, when they can’t collect because—

Today I will be speaking on Bill 142, Better for Consumers, Better for Businesses Act, 2023. This legislation is a welcome update to Ontario’s Consumer Protection Act, especially since it has not been updated in more than 20 years.

First, I would like to congratulate the minister on his new role and on introducing this bill. It is clear that the minister and the ministry did extensive research and consultation with many, many relevant stakeholders.

Often, with this government’s bills, they have some good initiatives sprinkled among some very concerning things. However, Bill 142 seems like it will be a positive undertaking for consumers and businesses alike, and something that everyone in this House can agree upon, for a change.

It is important that we continue to do what we can to protect the rights of consumers and businesses, whether it’s for large investments like a home or a car, or smaller purchases, such as buying and using a gift card. We must set an example and provide businesses with proper guidelines so that no one gets taken advantage of. I welcome the update on the consumer act.

Okay, let’s get into it.

Part I of Bill 142: There is some good stuff happening here. Plain language is important in making sure that there is a fair playing field for businesses and consumers alike. I’m sure we’ve all had to read a long contract when making a purchase, and not all of us are part of King’s Counsel, so the verbiage can be lengthy, complicated and confusing, when it actually does not need to be. Pair that with bad-actor businesses who intentionally use libel to corner consumers into agreements that they don’t understand, and it simply sets people up for potential problems—unnecessary ones, at that. This type of behaviour does not create an equitable playing field for shoppers, especially those for whom English is not a first language. It isolates newcomers and can set them up to be scammed or misled. This is not a very welcoming or friendly approach to attracting and retaining current or future customers. Therefore, businesses need to ensure they actually value and respect the people they serve.

I think part I of this bill is solid and will help to prevent misunderstanding or financial hardships for consumers.

One question I would have is about enforcement: How do we determine what kind of language is clear and comprehensible, and how do we make sure that all businesses are using it? I’m open to hearing the government’s ideas for how they are planning to work together with businesses to establish what is or is not confusing or misleading for consumers. My concern is that there would still be businesses that slip under the radar, without proper information or templates on ensuring consumers can understand their contracts. How do we prevent this? What is confusing to one person may be perfectly clear to another. That’s something to think about.

Part II of Bill 142: Let’s discuss fair marketplace rules in Bill 142. This part “prohibits unfair practices; namely, making false, misleading or deceptive representations, making unconscionable representations and engaging in unconscionable acts”—for example, misrepresenting the product you are selling by claiming it to be a different material or charging a price that grossly exceeds the price of similar goods or services available from similar suppliers, or, simply put, price gouging. We saw this during the beginning of the pandemic—suppliers selling hand sanitizer or face masks for exorbitant prices, upcharging innocent consumers because they could. The fair marketplace rules are a good idea and a step in the right direction.

Again, I do have questions on how the government will enforce this. What percentage classifies a price increase as “grossly exceeding”? Does this extend to all types of businesses? For example, I do notice that Shoppers Drug Mart sells certain food products for what I would say grossly exceed the price of similar goods at, let’s say, No Frills. Both are owned by Loblaws, but they have drastically different prices. How is the government using this bill and its regulations to combat these food price inequalities and create more grocery competition in Ontario, to make food more affordable?

I’m also wondering if this price gouging law will extend to ticket sales on sites such as Ticketmaster. My Swiftie staff will tell you the price of resale tickets is absurd. We should protect the wallets of fans who wish to see their favourite artists in concert.

In Australia, New South Wales has new ticket reselling laws that make it against the law to resell tickets above the original value plus 10%. This is something we should consider here.

Bill 142 will also prohibit businesses from creating unnecessary barriers when consumers are trying to cancel a subscription or a membership-based contract. This is another welcome addition to the consumer act. I’m sure we’ve all experienced this and know why it’s needed. The obvious example is with gym memberships and the unfair tricks some gyms use to persuade their members into continuing their contracts. Requiring automatic renewal notifications will help consumers to make sure their hard-earned money is going to the right place. Most businesses want to run fairly; that includes keeping your consumers informed. Once again, I do question how the bill will establish what exactly counts as unnecessary barriers to cancelling a subscription or contract. But, in essence, this is a great thing for consumers.

The new rules for gift cards are positive as well, closing expiry date loopholes and room for extra, unnecessary fees.

There’s always room for improvement and new perspectives when law-making. I would like to see an amendment to this bill that deals with the infuriating and ridiculous planned obsolescence aspect of our goods nowadays. When you think back to items that were manufactured generations before us, companies took pride in their work and workmanship and built things to last.

My grandma taught me how to bake, and I would spend many weekends and summer holidays at her home in Orillia whipping up all kinds of tasty treats. The mixer we used was second-hand when my grandma purchased it, and she never stopped bragging about that super Sunbeam machine roaring to life every time we used it in the kitchen for well over 25 years.

Enbridge Gas once ran a contest for the longest-running furnace in Ontario. My father happily revealed to them that the furnace in our childhood home in Collingwood was still alive and kicking well after 50 years. He won second place, as someone else actually had an older one.

Nowadays, it’s like a disposable society. This short-sighted attitude is wrong on so many levels. Our landfills are growing to capacity, and there are fewer and fewer jurisdictions that would actually welcome new garbage dumps being created, and rightly so, as we all should be practising the four Rs—refuse, reduce, reuse, recycle—and doing our darnedest at waste diversion.

Bill C-244 passed earlier this year in the House of Commons, giving consumers the right to repair their goods, including phones and cars, combatting planned obsolescence. Other places in the world are getting on board with this type of legislation as well. I would like to see Bill 142 include a right-to-repair section that echoes this policy. Ontario should never be lagging behind in smart, savvy, sustainable practices.

Another thing the government could consider when amending the consumer rights act is the influx of artificial intelligence in our businesses and marketplaces. We already see companies moving to provide and leverage essential inputs of AI systems such as data and hardware, opening a window of opportunity for companies to potentially seize outsized power in this technological domain. There are definitely good aspects about AI, but there are risks we need to be aware of too. Consumers should be made aware when an algorithm is using their personal information to provide offers for goods and services, or uses this data to make a decision, or reports this data to third parties. Consumers should always be allowed to request human intervention if they are unsatisfied with the outcome of an AI-based complaint handling system.

I am by no means an expert in AI and technology; just ask my kids. But I think it is crucial for us to consider this, as legislators, going forward, as the future of this type of technology is so unknown and can present uncertainty and risks for consumers and businesses. The EU has been a world leader in AI legislation and consumer protections, and we should look to them for ideas and inspiration. AI doesn’t have empathy; it just has algorithms designed to make the most money at any cost. Let’s prepare and protect Ontarians from the risk of scamming that comes with AI.

In conclusion, I will be supporting Bill 142. It’s a good step in the right direction in balancing the needs and the rights of consumers and business in Ontario.

I hope the government will listen to the questions and concerns I’ve raised and that we all can work together to create a better Ontario.

Questions?

My question for the excellent member for Beaches–East York—and I thank her for her anticipated support of this bill. Did the member opposite know that on July 8, 1966, when the original Consumer Protection Act was given royal assent—what was the Grammy Award-winning song of the year released that spring and summer by Frank Sinatra? That’s my first question.

My second question: Is she aware of section 71, alternative dispute resolution, instead of going to court—under this proposed bill—which was unknown in 1966? That is my two questions in one.

We are in agreement that consumers need way more protection than they have had to date and that this bill does do that—but I think that, really, what is concerning is that people still are required to seek redress in court. So my question would be—particularly for vulnerable people; seniors, for example; young people who don’t have the means or the resources to go to court—do you think that this is a barrier in seeking redress and justice, and can you think of ways that the government could have improved this to make sure that people who have been transgressed have the ability to see some justice?

Who’s your first favourite?