I recognize the member for Mississauga Centre.

I rise today in support of my colleague the Solicitor General and his incredible work in proposing much-needed reforms towards animal welfare in our province. These reforms show that our government is not only interested in caring for our residents but also our furry friends.

In fact, this is not the first time our government addressed animal welfare. In 2019, our government implemented the most comprehensive and strictest animal welfare legislation in the country. The PAWS Act established standards of care and prohibitions against causing harm and distress to animals. We became the first jurisdiction in Canada to have animal welfare enforcement conducted by the province.

What’s great about the PAWS Act is that while it does regulate all dog breeders, it does not burden responsible breeders with further care requirements. It specifically targets the bad actors.

In Ontario, we have some of the toughest penalties and fines for the mistreatment of animals—and the amendments in this bill will further protect vulnerable dogs in our province.

I cannot forget to recognize the member for Etobicoke–Lakeshore for her incredible animal rights advocacy with her private member’s bill, the Protecting Our Pets Act. In the last Parliament, I lived in Etobicoke, actually. I was renting an apartment, so I lived in the member’s riding, and I would receive this beautiful calendar every year full of pictures of cats, dogs and furry friends. I certainly miss receiving that calendar, so maybe she can send one over anyway.

Dogs, like all animals, are sentient beings, capable of feeling pain, joy and a range of emotions. It is our duty, as a compassionate society, to ensure their well-being and advocate for their rights. It is a reflection of our values as a society, our commitment to kindness and our understanding of the interconnectedness of all living beings—Mother Nature.

I know, like many of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, one of the best feelings is coming home to our furry friends, who are always so excited to see us. I think my dog is much more excited to see me sometimes than my very own husband, and so I really look forward to that moment, coming home and just getting that high burst of energy, no matter what the day was. We all know that days here can be quite ugly sometimes, but the moment I walk through that door and Cleo runs toward me, it all goes away. So I’m looking forward to that this evening as well.

This bill is a fundamental aspect of building a more compassionate and sustainable world. Today’s bill, the Preventing Unethical Puppy Sales Act, is a groundbreaking piece of legislation that will change the way we treat our canine friends in Ontario.

As the saying goes, a dog is a man’s best friend, but it is also a woman’s best friend, too. Scientists say that it has been the case for almost 1,500 years. In fact, dog ownership is proven to improve human health in so many ways: It provides a source of happiness, activity and daily physical exercise. Yes, Mr. Speaker, this morning, I took Cleo out for a walk at 5:30 a.m. She was a little confused why it was so early, but to get here in time for Parliament, 5:30 a.m. it is. So I can attest to that; Cleo keeps me happy and fit.

I’m the proud owner of a German Shepherd named Cleo who, at the age of two years old, is the most hyper and friendly dog you could meet. Her undying love for me and my husband cannot compare to anything in the human world. In fact, many of my colleagues have either met or seen Cleo since I bring her to a lot of events in the riding. For all members in the House, you know there’s a dog vote out there. Because when I go out with my dog, people always come to me—and they want a picture with my dog, not with me, and that’s totally okay. It’s a great tool for campaigning, and I highly, highly suggest it to all of you.

I’m very grateful that when we adopted Cleo as a puppy, she came from a reputable source that cared for the welfare of their dogs and not an unregulated, dubious source. That’s one of the reasons I am so proud of our government tabling the PUPS Act. Our government is amending the existing PAWS Act to stop the growing and disturbing practice of puppy mills. With this bill, we will stop these harmful practices and enforce the law, ensuring that dogs in Ontario are shown the dignity they deserve.

Puppy mills are widely prevalent in our province, operating in secrecy, and are notorious for their overbreeding, crowded and unsanitary conditions and lack of medical care—which pose huge threats to the present and future well-being of these precious animals. Many Ontarians know this, so I want to remind those in the chamber and my constituents: If you are aware of an animal being abused or in distress, call the Ontario Animal Protection Call Centre at 1-833-9-ANIMAL.

The reforms we are proposing to ban the harmful practice of puppy mills include:

—breeding a female more than three times in a two-year period;

—breeding a female younger than a year old;

—sequestering dogs with illnesses away from other animals;

—having an unsanitary environment for dogs; and

—separating a puppy from its mother before the age of eight weeks.

Mr. Speaker, anyone with a shred of decency would support these measures, which ensure that dogs in Ontario are not treated like disposable products, but as loving pets deserving our dignity and respect. On top of that, breeding dogs in this manner puts the puppies at risk, since they can develop serious health problems which might result in early death. With these puppy mills, people have no way of ensuring these dogs have been properly vaccinated or have been raised in an appropriate environment.

Alors, monsieur le Président, je sais que le procureur général travaille à la création de matériel d’éducation publique sur la façon dont les acheteurs de chien peuvent identifier un éleveur réputé et éthique, par rapport à une usine à chiots. Parfois, le premier endroit où les gens regardent est Kijiji, qui peut parfois être une source de nombreux mauvais acteurs.

Ces deux choix font une énorme différence : une différence entre l’adoption d’un chien en bonne santé et prospère, et celle d’un chien qui pourrait être criblé de problèmes de santé.

Nous veillons à ce que ceux qui exploitent des usines à chiots en violation flagrante de la législation provinciale se voient infliger une amende minimale de 10 000 $, et de 25 000 $ si leurs actes de négligence entraînent la mort d’un chien.

The government also intends to hold consultations on potential regulations for unnecessary medical procedures on dogs and cats, such as declawing, tail docking, ear cropping and debarking. Many of these procedures are for purely aesthetic purposes that bring no benefit to the pet themselves. Declawing, for example: Cats need their claws to physically explore the world around them. Maybe my furniture might not agree with me, but getting rid of this crucial body part, in my opinion, is grossly inappropriate, and the same goes for tail docking and ear cropping. Dogs are beautiful the way they are, and there is no need for body modifications.

I want to recognize stakeholders who have shown support for the PUPS Act, such as Doug Brooks from the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Humane Society, who said:

“This legislation is a welcome and important step towards protecting dogs from unethical breeders and addressing the issue of puppy mills throughout our province. The Ontario SPCA and Humane Society looks forward to continuing to work with the Solicitor General to further develop the detailed regulations that will provide the greatest protection possible for both dogs and the public.”

Mr. Speaker, this endorsement rings true that our government is committed to animal welfare like no other jurisdiction in Canada.

I just want to share a very quick personal story about my dog Kumba, who passed away last year. In the last election, when I was campaigning, there were some turbulent times; there was some dirty politics being played, and there were anonymous flyers being sent to my entire riding. The one thing that kept me going each and every day was my morning walk with Kumba. I felt like I was getting ready for battle. Kumba and I, we would go and do our two-kilometre daily walk. I would listen to some Christian music and just prepare. I literally was feeling like I’m preparing for the battle of the day to go out there and door-knock and face some harsh and challenging moments. Kumba’s presence and that daily activity of just walking my dog and having that half an hour to myself with my Kumba—it gave me the peace of mind and it helped my mental health and it helped me move forward.

Animals bring so much benefit to our life; that’s why at SickKids we also have a pet-assisted therapy program. So I think it is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that our pets and dogs who do so much for us and for our society—even serving as service animals—are protected and kept in the best condition possible.

Thank you to the members who just spoke. My question is to my friend from Elgin–Middlesex–London.

I was interested in your comments about the Humane Society of London and Middlesex and also in particular your comments about these puppy mills. I did want to ask, do you think it would be adequate—would it not make more sense to ensure that all dog breeders are licensed in the province of Ontario, thus being able to make sure that there are standards in place for each and every one of them?

Questions, now, to the members who just spoke?

First off, I’d like to say to the member who was speaking about how excited her dog was to come get her, we had a cat for about 18 years that we lost last year. We got a new cat, and I can tell you, undoubtedly, I’ve never received that kind of excitement from a cat. He very efficiently ignores me.

Interjection.

We heard the member speaking about the consultations that have gone on and some of the comments that have come from people like the SPCA and other groups. Could the member please elaborate on how the government intends to continue the consultation on the regulations for the PUPS Act?

Next, the member for Hastings–Lennox and Addington.

Questions?

That’s a good question. I guess when I take a look at those who buy their dogs through breeding associations, through breeders, they’re registered through the kennel club. They do a really good job of that. Their animals have to be registered. The parents’ and the females’ lineage has to be documented.

So again, as I said in my remarks, really what we’re talking about here are the bad actors. They’re unethical. They’re clandestine. They hide in the weeds. To find them and ferret them out and fine them is what we need to do, so let’s not make it punitive to the good actors; let’s let them continue to self-regulate, like they do a wonderful job of doing.

Again, I think this bill highlights the minimum fines and raises them. If we can hurt them financially, I think that’s the most important part here. If we hurt them financially—that’s why they’re doing it anyway.

I think one of the great things we did in this House recently was pass the modernization of the vet act. We can talk a lot about puppy mills, and I think it’s important, and I’ll digress a little bit, but I think adding more spots for veterinarians and, more importantly, creating an environment that will allow our veterinary technicians to do a better job of animal care will go a long way in helping dog owners, pet owners, manage their companion animals very well. I think it complements what we’re trying to do here.

To not do this bill would hurt the good work we did in the modernization of the vet act, and I stand convinced that that’s going to create some great results. At the end of the day, I would recommend a good dog. Check out the parentage, check out the lineage, make sure animal health is in order and genetic abnormalities aren’t there and you’ll have a good friend for a long, long time.

That being said, my primary care and concern is the ethical treatment of these animals, the care, whether it’s making sure animal nutrition—we provided, in my former life, feed, animal nutrition, for exotic animals at the Toronto Zoo. Done properly and ethically and managed in the best way possible with good management practices, it’s done very well. It’s when it’s not done well, so as long as the zoo is following the letter of the law and practising good animal health behaviour and animal nutrition standards, I’ll continue to support them.

My question is to the member for Mississauga Centre. Thank you for your presentation. It’s good to hear about your pets.

My question is about the issue with wildlife that are kept in captivity: in zoos, in people’s homes. Unfortunately, in Ontario, their animal welfare is not properly regulated. There’s no enforcement. There’s no inspection. I’m wondering if this government is interested in introducing amendments or changes to ensure that wild animals kept in captivity can have some animal welfare standards as well.

Thank you for that question. As the member knows, through the committee process and our proposed amendments, there will be opportunity for stakeholder feedback and to hear back from the public. The proposal has also been posted on Ontario’s Regulatory Registry as another avenue for feedback to be provided.

I really do think that this committee will be oversubscribed because I’m sure so many people want to come and talk to us about their love of animals and what more we can do as a government and as a Legislature to protect our vulnerable animals. Because they don’t speak, so we have to speak for them.

I really look forward to those consultations. I think it will be a lot of fun. In fact, Speaker, I think we should do a “bring your dog to Queen’s Park” day for all the members and do a nice little walk. Wouldn’t that be fun? We should do that, Speaker. What do you think?

My question is to the Associate Minister of Housing. First of all, I would say that as a pet owner, and we’ve talked a lot about our pets today, I need to get my cat’s name into the Hansard, which is Ellie. That will thrill my daughter to absolutely no end: that my cat is in the Hansard now. My daughter is in Hansard, but she’ll be excited about the cat.

But she’s also very excited, as is my son, about every puppy they see and every dog they see, and we are in the market for a new dog in our house. I have to explain to them—because they would take them all—that there are some bad actors out there, and as much as every puppy is undeniably cute, they may have been bred in some pretty terrible circumstances.

So a question to the associate minister on what you perceive the risks of not moving forward with this bill being.

It’s always an honour to rise in this House to speak on behalf of the great people of Toronto Centre. In particular, today, I’m pleased to speak on Bill 159, Preventing Unethical Puppy Sales Act.

I am very pleased to see a bill of this nature appear before us. Like many who have spoken before me—this House seems to be filled with animal lovers and, in particular, dog lovers; I count myself as one of them. Having had three dogs in my life, one rabbit, two cats, three turtles and 31 tropical fish—at many different times, I’ve had a menagerie. And I can tell you, as we all know, they deserve our protection.

That’s why I think this bill is important. I look forward to seeing it go through committee and seeing what else comes from it, including perhaps some amendments to further strengthen it.

When I was contemplating what I wanted to say about the bill, I reached out to constituents on social media, as we all do sometimes. I wanted to hear from my constituents, to see what they had to say about the issue of banning puppy mills in Ontario. Very proudly, I want to let you know that many of my four-legged constituents got their humans to respond on their behalf and to let me know that they strongly support seeing the protection of animals—especially puppies being banned from abuse.

We heard from:

—Cooper, a rescue chihuahua pug and the mascot for the St. James Town Residents Council;

—Misha, a very sweet basset hound who loves hanging out at the Cherry Beach dog park and all the other east end neighbourhood parks between Corktown and St. James Town;

—Rocco, an eight-month-old goldendoodle rescued from a puppy mill, who has some health issues, but those issues that came from the puppy mill overbreeding don’t keep him down, and he just keeps on going;

—Zenia, a rescue dog from St. Lucia who lives in the Village and loves Barbara Hall Park and Riverdale Park;

—Rocky, a rat terrier adopted from the local Toronto Humane Society, who does get nervous from time to time, but she is curious and loves to go for walks around Regent Park;

—Louise, a rescue miniature pincher mix from Texas, who loves playing with her doggy friends at Toronto Centre’s off-leash dog parks.

I was very pleased to be working on the expansion and the improvement of dog infrastructure when I was at the city of Toronto as a city councillor. I count that as some of my most proud moments.

I could go on, Speaker, because 50-plus canines actually had their humans write into us, and I might just come back to it, because they’re too cute to ignore.

But I do want to get to the substance of the bill, because I think that is important and why we’re here. This bill contains several changes to the Provincial Animal Welfare Services Act that serve to protect dogs, which I support and many of us do support in this House. Some of these changes include:

—banning the breeding of a female dog more than three times in a two-year period, or breeding more than two litters from a female dog’s consecutive heat cycles, as well as banning the breeding of a female dog that is less than 12 months old;

—banning the breeding of a female dog for the first time before its second heat;

—making it illegal to fail to isolate a dog from other dogs or animals where there are reasonable grounds to believe that the dog is suffering from a contagious disease or is at high risk of developing a contagious disease, including failure to ensure there is no contact with objects, including food and water containers, that are used by other dogs or animals, except,

—separating a puppy from its mother or substitute mother before the age of 56 days, except as otherwise recommended by a veterinarian in writing for health reasons;

—instituting a minimum penalty for operating a mill, set at $10,000;

—instituting a minimum penalty of $25,000 if the mill operation leads to the death of a dog, or of euthanasia by a veterinarian.

This is all very commendable, and I think that this is a fantastic foundation for us to build upon, and I hope that we can do that work at committee, because I know that when the bill goes to committee, there are a number of people who still want to see improvements to the bill—sorry, we’re on second reading. But the advocates want us to do more, so I wanted to give my platform to them, as I share their comments with the House today about what more animal welfare advocates want to see in this bill and how they think that we can work collaboratively to improve this piece of pending legislation.

They pointed out that breeding that takes place in the province is done under conditions that will now be prescribed, and that the ideal breeding conditions that could lead to pure and in-demand breeds being sold by pet stores is almost non-existent. So, clearly, that is one section of the bill that could see a significant improvement, because unless we are able to name the problem, we won’t be able to fix the problem.

According to the animal rights and welfare advocates, the key piece to any statute or regulation will have to be placed on enforcement and inspection. As we all know, because we’re lawmakers, unless we see adequate investments to inspection and enforcement, then any bill is really not worth a lot if we actually cannot make it do what we want it to do.

The bill doesn’t include funding to better resource or equip provincial animal welfare services, or PAWS, inspectors, and so the question will be, who is going to enforce the standards? If the bill is not improving the enforcement and investigation, that is certainly one area of improvement.

Currently, provincial animal welfare inspectors are badly understaffed. This has been widely reported now. The CBC has recently put forth a fairly lengthy investigation where they go deeper into the story, where they go behind the scenes to be able to understand what is wrong with this system and why we see that inspections pertaining to animal welfare have gone significantly down.

Under the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act, the OSPCA inspectors issued 16,148 orders and they laid 1,946 provincial and criminal charges between 2015 and 2018, while PAWS inspectors only laid 6,970 orders and laid 667 provincial and criminal charges between 2020 and 2023. So, the animal advocates are saying the government is talking a big game about protecting animals, and they’re asking you to do a lot more.

How can we do more? How can the government work towards giving the real teeth to the legislation if there aren’t adequate staff who are properly trained and on the field to then investigate and enforce? I recognize investigation and enforcement takes time. This is not something you can do over the phone. You’ve got to go in there like the CBC investigative journalists to go and dig deeper. Then, the charges are laid, and then at some point in time, you’ve got to deal with prosecution, because fines don’t just happen.

That’s why, when the CBC did an entire investigation into the drop in cases, advocates who then spoke to them have said PAWS is so understaffed that they often show up and take action only if the media shows up and there’s a public outcry. Now, clearly that’s not a winning condition, and that’s not going to make the legislation more effective. So, we have to listen to the advocates who are part of the system of democracy that holds each and every single one of us accountable, because they’re the ones who are pushing for the change.

Ashley DaSilva, who is the founder of the Hamilton-based group Fur Warriors, said that the inspectors need more support from the province.

“As a result, she said, it can feel like PAWS will only take action when there’s enough public scrutiny.”

So we’re forcing citizens to actually go off and protest and at their own time and energy lead the charge with the media.

“She pointed to a video that appeared to show a Hamilton man whipping his dog, Merlin, and dragging the dog down a sidewalk in late June.

“It took a week for police and PAWS to remove the dog from the owner, and he now faces provincial charges. But” Ms. DaSilva “is doubtful any of that would have happened without the media attention and public pressure.”

They state, “If you don’t cause a stink, nothing happens. What happens to the dogs that don’t have videos?”—which I think is a really important question. What happens if the act of cruelty is not caught by someone who has a camera? We need to have inspectors on the ground and in the field doing their work.

“Jennifer Friedman, a former OSPCA lawyer who now practises privately, said it’s ‘troubling’ to hear the drop in charges and orders, especially given what many of her clients are telling her.

“‘There’s a great deal of frustration.... They’re hoping animal welfare services would do more.’”

Amy Fitzgerald, University of Ottawa professor and animal welfare researcher, said it’s “particularly unlikely” the drop in PAWS charges and orders was because there were fewer animal abuse incidents. She pointed to how domestic violence was rising during the pandemic.

It’s also important for us to note that PAWS does not necessarily share the calls that it receives and that inspectors may be using more discretion when issuing orders or charges. So really, you don’t have the type of scrutiny or even audit procedure that one needs to have in order to know whether or not the system can be running more effectively.

It has also been noted that PAWS needs more than its current staffing allocation of 100 inspectors to thoroughly and quickly investigate cases across Ontario. Just think of it: 100 inspectors for a province as large as Ontario. The contrast to that is that the Toronto Transit Commission has about 110 inspectors just for our transit system, which is a much smaller geography that has to be covered. It has been commented on that more inspectors need to receive additional training, and they need to think proactively on how they can prevent the matters of animal abuse.

“Michèle Hamers, campaign manager at World Animal Protection Canada, said the wording in the province’s legislation is too broad and impacts what inspectors can do on the scene. For example, the legislation defines distress as an animal being:

“—in need of proper case, water, food or shelter;

“—injured, sick, in pain or suffering;

“—neglected, abused or subject to undue physical or psychological hardship.”

She further goes on to unpack the guidelines, where she provides that “guidelines defined for various species and that only allow various animals to be kept as pets. Those steps” should and “would make the system more proactive.”

Also highlighted for us was the need for more transparency, one of the missing key drivers that led to PAWS being taken over by the privately run OSPCA. Camille Labchuk, executive director of Animal Justice, who I had the esteemed pleasure of working with when we worked on the national shark fin ban of importation and use of shark fin products in Canada, an advocate who is a leading voice on animal rights, welfare and well-being in Canada and internationally, has said this about the case of transparency when PAWS took over: Things have “gotten far, far worse.”

Ms. Labchuk says Animal Justice has filed many complains about Marineland, a theme park in Niagara Falls, but never heard back from the province. If you wanted to demonstrate that you care about animal welfare, there’s a great example right there that you can take action on. Why is Marineland still operating?

“Labchuk said PAWS should have a website, issue an annual report each year and, if it’s in the public interest, issue media releases when it issues orders, seizes animals or one of its investigations leads to charges.” Tell us what you’re doing. If you’re doing such a great job, share the news as broadly as you can.

“Labchuk also said PAWS legislation needs more regulations governing animal breeding, farms, zoos and other industries.”

It is important for us to be able to see the baseline of productivity. If we don’t know what is happening, and you have people who are saying that not enough is being done—and these are not just random people; these are people who have dedicated their existence to protecting animals and animal welfare—there is obviously room for improvement.

It’s important for us to also recognize that this government has not been treating all dogs equally. There are some dogs you want to protect and other dogs you don’t. In fact, this government moved to regulate and expand legal pen dog hunting, a practice that was in the process of being phased out. Many advocates feel that it’s unsafe for dogs and it is unnecessarily cruel to the prey of animals, who are hunted in these pens with no way to escape. And yet the government went out of their way to include a clause in Bill 91 to more deeply enshrine those types of facilities into law, in essence legalizing animal cruelty.

Two animal rights organizations have requested a review of that legislation. So there will be more to be discussed about that because that story is not going away and clearly, if lawyers have deemed that they have enough of a case to go forward, this is going to be a very costly and time-consuming process for the Ontario government once again.

There is so much more in Ontario that can be done to increase animal welfare. In February of this year, Quebec banned all non-essential and cosmetic surgeries on pets, including ear cropping, tail trimming, vocal cord removal and cat declawing. These regulations in Quebec are just a formalization of an already widespread rejection of those surgeries among veterinarian professionals.

And it’s not just Quebec. All over the world, these surgeries have been banned or actively discouraged. Ontario is now the only province in Canada that does not ban cat declawing. It’s very difficult to find a veterinarian willing to do the procedure, but it’s not because it is banned by this government but because of veterinarians’ own professional expertise and their own code of conduct and their compassion. Without a formal ban, you can still find someone—a surgeon—to do the procedure.

Quebec is by no means perfect, but Ontario could do more by following their lead and studying what they’ve done well. The Quebec legislation also bans the euthanasia of an animal by inhalation, leashing an animal without a collar, mating animals whose sizes are incompatible and feeding meat to pet pigs. All of these measures in Quebec make a lot of sense, and they have done it after consultation and review of subject matter experts.

So, clearly there is much more that can be done here, and I want to extend a massive, big thank you to all of the advocates working behind the scenes to increase animal welfare and protection in Ontario. There are countless organizations that advocate for the humane treatment of animals, for them to be safe, to be clean, to be treated when they’re sick, to be provided with the enrichment that they need to grow and learn, and given the love and care that we all know that they thrive on.

Believe it or not, your constituents will agree with you and the animal advocates if you work together to take those actions. Just as I’ve noted, many of the canines in my community had their humans write in to tell us that they support the legislation, but more can be done.

So, as I conclude, I just want to continue to give a little bit more love and a shout-out to both the canines out there, but also to the workers and the volunteers who keep Ontario’s shelters, rescues and fosters going. It’s often heartbreaking and delicate work to get an animal who has been through so much abuse and trauma, and to watch them try to be able to love and trust again.

This happened with my own dog. Her name was Tara. She was a black Lab-pit cross. She had been adopted and returned to the Toronto Humane Society three times by the time I picked her up. I don’t know what it was, but I had to take her home. When I read that she had won the award for being there the longest—at the humane society—with very little dog experience in my background, I decided to take home this 65-pound dog and I loved her to the very end.

We all have stories similar to that on why pets make the difference for you, and you can stand up for them by doing the right thing and improving the legislation.

Questions to the member for Toronto Centre?

I’ll just start by suggesting to the member from Hastings–Lennox and Addington that he take some advice from our associate minister and put those tins of food in his pocket. Then your cat will pay attention to you.

One of the things I wanted to talk about is—again, back to the associate minister, who has got some expertise on animal nutrition—the positive parts in this. There are a lot of elements in it to strengthen enforcement, with bigger fines and bigger penalties—enforcing and making the bad actors pay attention, hurting them where it hurts: in the pocketbook.

But also on the positive side, I’d like to get your comments on identifying what good best practices are for a responsible breeder, and educating the public on what those are so they know the advantages of purchasing an animal from a responsible breeder, and those elements that are within the bill and how you think those will help with reducing the number of—hopefully someday eliminating—the bad actors in the puppy mill business.

I want to thank my colleague for her fantastic presentation. We have talked about enforcement. Questions have been asked about that as well. I know there has been well-intentioned and well-meaning legislation that the government has tabled many times to change a behaviour or to change a practice, but enforcement is key to that.

One of the government members talked of doubling of fines and whatnot, but can the member speak to how the probability of being fined is often more important than the actual fine itself? If you double or triple fines but you don’t have the enforcement, you don’t have the inspectors doing the work, then will people often change their behaviours if they’re not going to get caught?

I want to thank the member for her speech today on this debate.

Does the member agree that we should not be breeding female dogs at a very young age?

To my colleague from Toronto Centre: You’ve touched on a variety of issues in your presentation today. Could you address again some of the improvements that you think are needed in this bill to address larger issues that we’re grappling with in this society?

I thank the member from Toronto Centre for their comments today. You made the comment that the—I’ve lost it. There was one part of your message that I was thinking about, and I was going to make a quip about it, but unfortunately I’ve lost it at this point.

I can tell you that I’ve received a number of emails specific to this particular piece of legislation. Unanimously they all said, basically, “Hurry up; get it done.” We know that the president of the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals has said that the PUPS Act is a welcome and important step towards protecting dogs from unethical breeders and addressing the issue of puppy mills throughout the province.

So does the member agree that we need to move this forward?

Thank you very much to the good member for Hastings–Lennox and Addington. Yes, I agree that we should be moving the legislation forward. I’ve also read the communication coming from the advocates and the executives at the animal welfare organizations. Also contained in their body is the fact that they’ve identified that a good first step is usually some language, as I’ve seen, that it needs active enforcement and active investigation, which means resources from this government. So we have to take a look at their communication in its totality.

I think my remarks have been very generous about where this bill is good, but we know that every piece of legislation can be improved, and I wanted to focus on that in my remarks as well.

Absolutely not. Unless there’s real teeth to the legislation, people will continue to do what they do because it is so profitable.

At any given time, you can go online and find designer puppies being sold through puppy mills for $2,000, $2,500. These litters are so profitable for the bad breeders and the bad actors, so they’re not going to stop with just an increase in fines; you’ve got to go out and get them. They’re advertising all over the place, so it’s not even that you have to work that hard to find them; they’re telling you where they are.

Yes, I have all sorts of opinions, because I was—at one point in time, I was uninformed. I did not know that the declawing of animals, especially for cats, was inhumane, because it was not widely understood. I thought that was just a way that you stop a cat from scratching your furniture—I was also significantly younger, until I learned as an adult.

I also thought that little golden cockapoos had short tails. It was not made known to me that someone cropped them off, or that ears of dogs were clipped.

So we need to ensure that legislation goes out that is going to be enforced and investigated—well-resourced—but we also have a responsibility to educate the public so they can also make good, informed decisions.

I thought I was fairly clear in my comments that I did support big sections of the bill. Again, we can always do more and go further. And if you can’t catch them, charge them; they’re not going to get fined.

Mr. Speaker, the Preventing Unethical Puppy Sales Act introduces minimum fines for harmful dog breeding practices, including $10,000 for the bad actors operating puppy mills; $25,000 if these violations result in the death of a dog.

Simple question: Does the member recognize the necessity for minimum fines for puppy mills?