I’m wondering if the member did get some emails from pretty much all the constituents and all the municipalities asking them to vote for that bill because that’s what people want. I’ve been meeting with a lot of municipal leaders and what they want is to have natural gas, and they sure are working for even the leave to construct being raised. So I’m wondering if she had reached out to municipalities and if she heard—of course, maybe she’s representing more of a city, but for us in a rural area it’s really important, natural gas. I’m wondering if she did get that kind of response from municipalities.

I listened intently to the member from Parkdale–High Park. She had an eloquent address and a strong argument, and she talked about housing, food and quality of life—important issues to all our communities and all our families.

Food producers in southwestern Ontario need cheap, safe, inexpensive, reliable natural gas to dry grains, to grow fresh fruit and vegetables, to put food with less food miles, grown closer to home and safe and trusted and grown in Ontario year-round. That food is in grocery stores in Parkdale–High Park, in Chatham-Kent–Leamington and throughout our communities. This bill supports just that: housing, food and quality of life. Does she not agree that keeping energy costs down provides safe food, grown closer to home, in her community and mine?

I really appreciated the comments from my colleague the member for Parkdale–High Park. As she pointed out, the ruling by the Ontario Energy Board was made after a year-long process that involved many, many experts, that involved the review of thousands of pages of documents and was all focused on what is in the public interest. And it only took a couple of hours after the ruling came out for the minister to announce that he was going to ignore the OEB decision and go back to the way that things were done previously in this province.

I wondered: What does the member for Parkdale–High Park think about a government that would be so quick to dismiss this incredible body of evidence that resulted in this decision of the OEB?

Before I begin, I want to say that I’m going to share my time with the marvellous member for Beaches–East York.

Speaker, we make laws here in this Legislature, but there are certain laws which cannot be repealed—certain laws in this world, which cannot be repealed, and they must always be obeyed. I’m speaking here of physical law.

One of them is energy conservation. We get a lot of light and energy from the sun, and this brings with it energy that can be turned into heat. Some of that heat gets captured and kept on earth by sort of “floppy” molecules, like carbon dioxide or methane or bigger molecules. That heat doesn’t just go away. Something happens to that heat. That heat affects us.

There’s another kind of unbreakable principle in the world, and some people may not be familiar with it. It’s called the ergodic principle—a very, very powerful idea—but the result is that this energy that we get from the sun, it gets into everything. It heats the air, heats the water. It affects weather extremes, warms the oceans. It’s going to cause the sea level to rise. It causes drought and flooding and it has consequences for ecosystems, and that in turn is going to affect things like insects and disease and famine. It’s going to create mass migration, social conflicts, and war.

This is something that people are expecting. The heat will affect everything. And it has really begun to make everything a lot more expensive. It makes everything a lot more expensive. We have to change how we behave and it’s not something that we’re going to do in 40 years. It’s not something we’re going to do in 30 years or 20 years. Really, it’s the next 10 years that are the most critical.

Les gens vont-ils changer leur façon de vivre, leur façon d’utiliser l’énergie? Ce gouvernement, qui dit se soucier de bâtir des maisons, veut-il sauvegarder notre maison commune?

I think the Ontario Energy Board has faith in people. They have faith that people will care for our common home. The Ontario Energy Board believes that people will move away from burning fossil fuels for heat and switch very soon, because we have to switch soon, to alternatives like heat pumps.

Now, heat pumps have been praised by this government. I think I just heard a minister today praise heat pumps, and I know the energy minister’s house has a heat pump with an electric backup, and so does his parliamentary assistant’s home. There are Ontario government incentives for heat pumps. So it’s no surprise that the Ontario Energy Board believes that Ontarians will respond and understand that this is the direction that we must go to save our common home. And there’s no reason why the government of the day, the ministers, should not believe that as well.

Now, the Ontario Energy Board concluded, after much deliberation, that this change in energy use pretty clearly risks stranded infrastructure, like pipes. Stranded infrastructure means unused infrastructure. And our system of regulated utilities means that all the remaining customers on the system must still pay back the utility for these unused assets, the cost of building these unused assets.

The Ontario Energy Board, which has a duty to protect consumers, said that we should pay for the infrastructure upfront in order to be fair to ratepayers, to protect ratepayers, especially in this time where affordability is so much of a concern for consumers. Now what that means is that there’s no more free natural gas pipeline insulations for housing developers, no more incentives to install natural gas pipelines to service every new residential subdivision.

The Ontario Energy Board decision to pay at least part of that cost upfront will help preserve our common home in the form of a minimum requirement for any reasonable climate strategy. At the very minimum, fossil fuels have to compete on a level playing field with other sources of energy, with all the costs accounted for, so no more perverse incentives where somebody—in particular, a house builder—doesn’t see the cost of putting in natural gas infrastructure and therefore just goes ahead and does it without bothering to think about what the consequences are.

And this, Speaker, is why Bill 165, overturning an independent regulator’s carefully considered decision, fundamentally is wrong. It hurts consumers and it does not help us care for our common home. Thank you.

Thank you. Questions and comments?

Further debate?

I thank my colleague from the Conservatives for that question. First, let me start by saying I did receive many emails on this issue and, by far, the main concern expressed by Ontarians is that this is an unprecedented move by this government interfering with an independent regulator.

Think about what that message sends to anybody who is interested in making investments in this province. They’re going to now move forward knowing that, depending on who has the direct line to the minister’s office, this is the government that is completely controlled by influence rather than the interests of what is good for the people of this province.

Unifor workers have raised the issue that when there is a gas leak, Enbridge has been contracting out that problem so that they can evade the Ontario Energy Board regulations. Think about that. And what happens? It’s the taxpayers, it’s the public who foots the bill. So we have added costs and all Enbridge has is more profit.

Speaker, the government can also listen to their own energy panel, which has said that Ontario must transition to clean, green energy.

My question is to the member from Beaches–East York. When the Liberals were in power, they politicized electricity planning. Liberals disregarded evidence. Liberals disregarded professional independent analysis. The Liberals directed the IESO to write blank cheques for new gas plants and signed hundreds of overpriced private contracts with no OEB hearings to find out if these were a good deal for consumers. As a result, hydro bills skyrocketed. We all remember also the gas plant scandal where hard drives were damaged and deleted and a staffer went to jail, Speaker.

My question to the member is, what lessons did your party learn that you can share with the Conservatives so they can avoid making the same mistakes?

I thank the member from Kingston and the Islands for that amazing lesson in physics. You are an incredible resource here in the chamber.

So here we go again, debating more policy that is going to help accelerate the climate crisis and cost Ontarians even more.

Bill 165, Keeping Energy Costs Down Act, 2024: Honestly, I just love the branding of these bills by the government. The titles are actually the complete opposite of what they do. It’s like developers, when they build sprawl, and they name the new areas after the things they destroy, like Heron Gate or Eagle Ridge.

The truth is, this bill seeks to undermine the authority of an independent energy watchdog. Let’s just think about it: It seeks to undermine the authority of an independent energy watchdog, and as is routine for this government, they prioritize corporate interests over the well-being of Ontarians.

The Ontario Energy Board, an independent arm’s-length regulator mandated to protect the interests of energy customers, released a landmark decision telling Enbridge to stop subsidizing its plans to expand infrastructure for methane-heavy natural gas by charging buyers of new homes for connections. I agree with this decision. It should have been done and dusted after the board so bravely made this choice.

Let me tell you what I think happened here. Their buddies, the government’s buddies in the greenhouse gas industry, got so mad that the government had to do something to stop the legitimate decision by the OEB, so they had to legislate it because, well, they knew they could not win a legal appeal on this.

The Ontario Energy Board came to this decision to help builders make informed choices when building new homes. The problem for this government is that if people have the option and information to make an informed choice, well, maybe many people won’t choose gas, and they can’t have that, because they have too many people in the greenhouse gas industry counting on them to keep them rich.

The government has justified Bill 165 based on the cost of the OEB decision—

Interjections.

So, the government has justified Bill 165 based on the cost of the OEB decision, but the ruling would actually not have had a substantial impact on housing prices. In the long run, its influence on energy prices would be determined by the energy source a home used, a choice that will increasingly shift as renewables gain recognition as an affordable energy option. As gas becomes less competitive, homeowners with gas hookups may switch to other energy sources, leaving the gas infrastructure as a costly stranded asset that would be a burden on homeowners who are still hooked up, a point that was emphasized by the OEB.

The legislation also sets a dangerous precedent. This is the first time any government of Ontario has overruled a decision by the independent OEB. These independent watchdogs that we are lucky to have should be non-partisan entities that look out for the needs of Ontarians.

The board’s mandate is to keep energy costs down, and that’s what drove this decision. This government is not looking out for the needs of regular Ontarians who are trying to save money on their energy bills. You can listen to them rant and rave and waste all their time talking about federal issues, but when there is an actual opportunity to make life more affordable for the people of Ontario, they intervene and make sure that, as always, their friends and wealthy insiders are taken care of.

I recognize the member for Beaches–East York.

I recognize the member for Peterborough–Kawartha.

I recognize the Solicitor General.

I recognize the member for Peterborough–Kawartha.

My question is quite simple. The bill is called the Keeping Energy Costs Down Act, yet we saw that this bill would allow the government to basically approve gas pipeline projects that the Ontario Energy Board has reviewed and believe that it is not economically viable, it is too expensive and not in the public’s best interest to do so. So how can she reconcile the two?

We have the energy board telling us, “Don’t go ahead with those projects that are too expensive,” and yet we have a bill that’s called Keeping Energy Costs Down. Do you think there is a problem here?

Thank you to the member from Parkdale–High Park. As you know, I just came two years ago, so I will start from June 2, 2022.

As you know, with the climate emergency, we all need to work together and we need to stop being partisan. That’s what Ontarians are looking for. I hear it time and time again, whether everyone can just get behind good, strong, bold and brave climate action and work together.

I expect—because I know that that is part of the NDP, who believe in climate change and want to do that and believe in the climate emergency—that you would work alongside with us, with the Greens and, hopefully, with the Conservatives if they clue in that there’s actually a climate emergency. Thank you.

Farmers don’t know whether they’re coming or going with you. You’re selling their land. You’re expropriating it. You’re keeping it. You’re all for the farmers. They don’t know. There’s no certainty.

Developers—well, let’s see. We’re going to not have you pay development charges, then we’re going to have you pay them. Then we’re going to allow this and then we’re not going to allow this. And planners, you’re out of jobs in Ontario because we know best as this government. We’re just going to take over and scrap all the planning policies that are out there.

So there’s no certainty for Ontarians with this government. I would ask you to maybe walk the talk on your comments today.

And here’s the thing: Where is the supply chain? Have you secured the supply chain to extract these minerals in the Ring of Fire? Have you done that? No. Have you consulted or engaged with Indigenous communities? No. How are you doing this and—

Interjections.

If you are aware of the climate emergency, you know that technology needs to change, and it will change. We’re going to have extreme heat this summer, absolutely, in Ontario. We’ve had it in the past, but it will be worse this year. It will continue to be worse, and we’ve done nothing for it. The FAO has warned us about the high cost of inaction, and we’re doing nothing. It’s going to be more cost-prohibitive.

So Ontarians are doing their own thing. They’re getting heat pumps. They’re conserving energy. They’re doing it themselves in spite of the lack of leadership.

You know what? How can you stand here and say Ontario’s open for business when you cut 748 renewable energy contracts in 2018 when you arrived? Like, read the tea leaves and the rest of the world. You’re open for business, but you—

I just want to back the tractor up. A lot of gall coming from an urban member from Toronto who is part of the Ontario Liberal Party. When I showed up here in 2006 and we were debating the budget of the day, shortly after I was sworn in, the first thing we talked about were cuts to the agricultural community. How can you stand there and speak to this caucus about your record?

I’d like to ask my colleague from Beaches–East York how important, in her opinion, is certainty. Is certainty of knowing that by having the infrastructure in place—and we heard from the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke about when you look at rural areas, people have a right to have a home. People have a right to be able to purchase a home, and we need certainty to do that.

I think what I really appreciate in Bill 165 is that by keeping energy costs down, with certainty, it allows us to take that step. How important is that in her opinion?

Thank you to the member from Beaches–East York for her presentation this afternoon.

Speaker, given the PCs’ past critiques of your government’s approach to electricity, which they compared to a soap opera for its dramatic politicization, how do the Liberals now view the current government’s similar strategy with Bill 165, which might lend to some lessons from previous missteps on electricity?

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’ve had the great pleasure of listening to some of the conversation. I’m actually going to follow up a little bit on what my colleague from Ottawa-Carleton—

Interjection.

I represent a riding that is larger than Prince Edward Island. We are slightly more than 3,400 square kilometres. We have approximately 170,000 people when you count some of the seasonal residents as well. Prince Edward Island is about 171,000 in about 3,200 square kilometres. So what I found really interesting about it was that during committee, the NDP kept bringing up Prince Edward Island as a prime example of it, not recognizing that sitting in committee there were three members on the Progressive Conservative side whose ridings were larger than Prince Edward Island.

I want to show some statistics because I do find it very rich that urban centres stand up and say, “This is what should happen in rural Ontario.” The member from Toronto–Danforth, who spent an hour talking about this—his riding is 29 square kilometres, 3,685 people per square kilometre. That is more people in one kilometre of Danforth than in the entire township of Trent Lakes, which I represent.

The member from Parkdale–High Park has a whopping 16 square kilometres, with 6,671 people per kilometre. The only municipality in my riding that is larger than that is the city of Peterborough. I have six municipalities and a First Nation, so the largest portion of my riding isn’t even as big as a square kilometre for people.

Beaches–East York: a whopping 19 square kilometres, with 5,061 people per square kilometre.

Kingston and the Islands: a little bit smaller, 665 square kilometres. Trent Lakes is 890 square kilometres. They have 3,000 people.

Peterborough itself: As I said, my riding is about 3,470 square kilometres. The centre of our riding is the city of Peterborough, with 85,000 people in it, and yet my riding only has 33 people per square kilometre. When I look at Trent Lakes, they have a whopping 3.2 people per square kilometre.

Now, why do I bring this up? I bring this up because everybody from the opposition who has been talking about this has natural gas available to them. They have inexpensive heating. What do we have in Trent Lakes? Oil furnaces, propane furnaces, wood pellet and a little bit of electric. Now, why is it only a little bit of electric? Because in 2003, Ontario had the lowest electric rates in North America; in 2018, after 15 years of Liberals, we had the highest electrical rates in North America, and people could not afford to heat their homes with electricity.

We’ve heard from the opposition many times saying we should go to heat pumps. Well, if the temperature consistently drops below minus 15 degrees Celsius, which would be my entire riding in most of the winter, an air-source heat pump doesn’t work for you. You just cannot get your home warm enough. A ground-source heat pump could, but here’s the problem that we experience in my part of the province, as well as 72% of the entire province, and that is that the Canadian Shield begins in my riding. It is extremely difficult to put a ground-source heat pump in granite. That is a challenge.

While the Ontario Energy Board makes hundreds of decisions a year and—and to their credit, almost all of them without issue—this one, this particular decision, did raise some concerns about the public engagement in the decision-making process. In fact, in the decision itself, one of the commissioners noted that this decision, which could have significant impacts on electricity demand, was reached without input from the province’s Independent Electricity System Operator.

So to the member of Beaches–East York: Do you agree that it’s concerning that members of the commission didn’t know the impacts of the decision before signing off on it, and do you agree that the changes we propose to increase public engagement is the right thing to do to ensure that the people of Ontario are heard on decisions that impact them?

You should try harder.

On farms.