Senator Manning: A principal issue related to this bill is the question of to whom this legislation would apply.

The government has repeatedly stated that there is no intent to apply this legislation to small players. Yet, there are no boundaries in the legislation to ensure that that intention is respected and this does not happen.

The Senate Transport and Communications Committee heard from numerous witnesses who clearly stated that the bill had to incorporate a revenue threshold in order to ensure that the legislation focuses on services that are truly of consequence in the digital marketplace, rather than capturing user-generated content.

Tim Denton, Chair of the Internet Society Canada Chapter, said that any online service that earns less than $150 million in Canada annually should be excluded from the act and “. . . from any regulation or obligation to contribute to Canadian content production . . . .”

As it stands now, it may surprise many of you to learn that neither charities nor religious organizations are exempt from regulation under this legislation, and proposed subclause 2(2.3) does not shelter the online activities of individuals, whether professional or amateur.

I know that some colleagues believe and will argue that social media is now exempt based on the amendment from our colleague Senator Miville-Dechene adopted at committee. However, I, and many stakeholders, are still of the mind that this amendment doesn’t go far enough because of the wide discretionary power it still affords the CRTC in deciding what is or isn’t scoped into this legislation.

As Mr. Denton said, social media platforms are far from the only places on the internet where entities and individuals may transmit audio or audiovisual content. Individual and community websites abound with such content. Neither subclause 2(2.3) nor clause 4.1 addresses the much broader regulatory reach of Bill C-11.

Konrad von Finckenstein, former chair of the CRTC, addressed another aspect of this. He noted that vesting in the commission such large powers with such vague parameters will prove extremely onerous for the CRTC. Every single stakeholder will come forward with specific requests for exemptions of conditions and argue they fall within the vast powers given to the CRTC.

Mr. von Finckenstein said that one cannot forget that the CRTC is a court of record that identifies issues, either on its own or via petitions; seeks input from affected parties and stakeholders; holds hearings, live or on paper; and then issues a decision.

All that has to be done in accordance with due process and can be judicially appealed.

Consequently, narrowing the powers will allow the CRTC to make good, timely and targeted decisions. The goal, of course, is to protect and strengthen Canadian broadcasting and foster Canadian production. Hence, the legislation should target only large streamers who can meaningfully compete with established broadcasters.

Isn’t that what the government keeps telling us is the point of this legislation? To target streamers who behave like broadcasters?

Small innovative internet players should be able to give their innovative drives full rein to contribute to the overall productivity of the Canadian economy.

Professor Michael Geist also told our committee:

I believe there is a clear need for thresholds and limitations in the legislation itself. Without it, services may regard the regulatory uncertainty — which the House committee heard will take years to sort out — to block Canada, leading to less choice and higher consumer costs.

This aspect is key. The full ramifications of this bill will take years to sort out as the CRTC goes through its regulatory processes. That means years of uncertainty for smaller players. It is that uncertainty they cannot afford.

Here I would like to quote Matthew Hatfield, the Campaigns Director of OpenMedia, who said, “It’s nonsensical for Bill C-11 to place obligations on platforms with a few thousand Canadian subscribers . . . .”

He also said:

It would be a very cruel consequence of this bill for diasporic Canadian communities to be cut off from the invaluable cultural lifeline provided by foreign streaming services.

Colleagues, I cannot stress enough how vital it is that we recognize the uncertainty this is creating for ordinary players. As Monica Auer, Executive Director of Forum for Research and Policy in Communications, told our committee, “. . . Bill C-11 is not coherent and not readily understood.”

The bill leaves creators guessing, and we should not be putting them in that position.

I would also like to reference what smaller creators told our committee, specifically Justin Tomchuk, an independent filmmaker who told our committee on September 27 that Bill C-11, as currently drafted:

. . . makes it clear that my business will fall under the call of the CRTC’s directives, as I derive direct and indirect income through my artistic efforts.

Scott Benzie, Managing Director or Digital First Canada, told the committee on September 28:

Our ask is simple: [The bill] needs clarity into what is in and what is out, because it currently includes the entire internet. Something this critical cannot be left to the CRTC to wade through.

Morghan Fortier, Co-Owner and Chief Executive Officer of Skyship Entertainment, said:

What keeps me up at night about this bill is the potential to gate content that is deemed not Canadian, either entering into the country or within the country. With retaliation from other countries, should this type of a law pass through, we’re done. I don’t mean my company. I mean we don’t need to talk about this bill anymore because it’s over. That will affect regionalized content creators, small content creators and larger content creators.

Frédéric Bastien Forrest, animator and content creator, told our committee on October 4:

My take on this is that it is scary. We have the feeling that the politicians behind this law are well intentioned and they want to promote our culture, which is great, but the side effects of the law could break stuff.

Oorbee Roy, content creator and skateboarder, also expressed her fears about how a small undertaking like hers could be impacted by CRTC regulation. She noted the arduous process that she and other creators face in registering their material as Canadian content.

I know that some senators will say that the Canadian content provisions were amended in committee. However, colleagues, there is no guarantee that that particular amendment will be accepted by the government. I submit that we need this very modest amendment I am proposing, and that the government will have difficulty saying “no” to it.

At committee, the government majority rejected the threshold of $150 million proposed by Mr. Denton. We were told by government officials that with a $150 million threshold some platforms, such as CBC Gem, might be excluded from regulation. But the committee then went on to reject the $100 million threshold proposed by Mr. von Finkenstein, and then it inexplicably rejected even lower thresholds of $50 million and $25 million.

So, colleagues, what I am proposing today is a threshold that would truly only exempt the very smallest of players. This threshold of $10 million is one fifteenth the amount recommended by Mr. Denton and the Internet Society, and one tenth the amount recommended by Mr. von Finkenstein.

Colleagues, I believe we have an obligation to respond to what an overwhelming number of witnesses have told us. The “just trust us” approach is bringing little comfort to the Canadians whose livelihoods depend on whether they will be subject to regulation as a result of this bill.

I hope you will support this amendment to establish greater certainty for ordinary Canadians.

Some Hon. Senators: Hear, hear.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: I am a bit surprised by your proposal because the reason Bill C-11 is so vague on some very specific issues is that the internet is constantly changing. The $10-million threshold is not particularly low, but we have no way of knowing how the internet will change in the future and who will become a major broadcaster in the Canadian context.

How did you come up with this $10-million threshold? Is it really a good idea to include this factor in the bill rather than allow the market to determine it? Again, you will say this is a matter for the CRTC, which already has a lot to rule on.

The Hon. the Speaker: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

The Hon. the Speaker: Is leave granted, honourable senators?

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Dawson’s time has expired. Senator Dawson, are you asking for five more minutes?

Senator Dawson: It has already been 45 minutes, but I will ask for another 5, yes.

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Housakos, he has three-and-a-half minutes.

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Richards, are you asking for five more minutes?

The Hon. the Speaker: I’m sorry, Senator Richards’ time has expired. Do you want to ask a question, Senator Omidvar?

The Hon. the Speaker: All those opposed will please say “nay.”

The Hon. the Speaker: Are senators ready for the question?

The Hon. the Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say “yea.”

The Hon. the Speaker: In my opinion, the “nays” have it.

And two honourable senators having risen:

The Hon. the Speaker: I see two senators rising. Do we have agreement on a bell?

The Hon. the Speaker: The vote will take place at 6:02 p.m. Call in the senators.

Motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Manning negatived on the following division: