The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Manning, there is at least one senator who wishes to ask a question, but you’re out of time. Are you asking for five minutes to answer some questions?

Senator Manning: Yes.

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Manning is out of time again.

Senator Manning, are you asking for more time?

Hon. Ratna Omidvar: Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That, notwithstanding the order of the Senate adopted on Thursday, April 28, 2022, the date for the final report of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology in relation to its study on the Federal Framework for Suicide Prevention be extended from December 16, 2022, to February 28, 2023.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): I thank the honourable senator for his question.

The government has implemented plans and strategies to fight gender-based violence and violence against women. It is working on developing a national action plan to hopefully put an end to gender-based violence.

The government has also invested money in more than 1,200 front-line organizations providing essential services to survivors of gender-based violence. In Budget 2021, the government built on this work by investing more than $3 billion over five years to advance these initiatives.

There are several ways to address this significant, tragic and unacceptable problem. The government continues to work on this issue.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear!

Senator Housakos: I agree it’s illegal and highly inappropriate, and I’m glad the RCMP is doing what they’re doing. But why isn’t your government doing what all other Five Eyes nations are doing, such as giving them more legislative tools and authority from their parliaments and congresses, to make sure this is dealt with?

Senator Gold, do you remember the expression, “A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian”? Doesn’t that matter anymore? There are many Canadians of Chinese descent living in this great country who deserve to live in peace, freedom and safety.

Why does your government not care enough about them to afford them protection from the Communist regime of China? Why is your government aiding and abetting those thugs? Why doesn’t your government take action?

At the end of the day, we’ve seen on a number of occasions how the Communist regime tries to intimidate parliamentarians in this Parliament. We’ve seen it in the past, where the Chinese ambassador has attempted to intimidate. Now we see them intimidating Canadians of Chinese descent on our soil.

I’m glad the government is concerned, and I’m glad you’re happy the RCMP is investigating, but what is this government doing in terms of tools to get to the bottom of this issue?

Hon. Colin Deacon: Thank you, Senator Yussuff, for your speech and sponsorship of this work. You don’t need to convince me for a second about the importance of dental care. I worked in the field for a number of years. When I got this job four and a half years ago, it was the first time in my life that I had dental benefits. It’s a privilege too many Canadians can’t get.

I am worried about the accusations of fraud more than anything, so I would like to just ask: Has there been a consideration? For two years, I’ve been working with CRA to help them correct a problem they made. Their administrative capacity is very limited. Is there the ability for Canadians to upload their receipt? That would limit the pool of those where an audit would be required. I just think having that capacity — has that been considered? If not, would you please make sure it’s considered during the study of the bill? I think having that in the program would limit the risk of fraud, but it would also help reduce the pool of those where an audit would have to occur in the future.

Senator Yussuff: Thank you, Senator Deacon, for the question. As you know, the minister has broad powers under the legislation. The minister will be before the committee. I will be honoured to raise this in terms of the capacity of CRA to upload receipts at the end of the day. It’s not currently required, but yes, it is true the minister could make a ministerial decision to alter or change the direction in regard to requiring receipts for individuals. The acknowledgment is very clearly in the legislation that audits could be conducted, and the CRA will have the authority to do so.

Hopefully I have enough time, Senator Deacon, before the minister appears before the committee. I will specifically ask the minister your point and get back to you.

Hon. Pierrette Ringuette: Honourable senators, do not worry. I don’t intend to speak for 15 minutes, although I would like to provide you with some of my concerns.

First and foremost, I can certainly understand the frustration of our very competent Agriculture and Forestry Committee members who, unfortunately, at the time of their meeting on this bill in June, did not receive critical information. As of September, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, or PBO, provided the financial consequences this bill would have on P.E.I.’s working poor. From my perspective, it is imperative that the members of the Agriculture Committee receive this bill and hear from the PBO. That is why I put forth the amendment.

Honourable senators, since my speech and the amendment that I made a week ago, I have received written letters on this issue. One stated that the PBO report “is untrue and, frankly, misleading.” Another one says that he agrees with the PBO report. Another letter received yesterday from a former witness of the committee says that the PBO report is “a flawed report from Ottawa.”

Colleagues, there’s an old saying that you can bring a horse to the trough, but you cannot make him drink. I believe this is the case for many — maybe too many. I don’t believe it is the case for the majority of my colleagues, though, on the Agriculture Committee.

The key element in the review is having the PBO as a witness. However, regarding the subamendment that we have before us tabled by Senator Black, what he said in his speech seems to indicate that he wishes to hear again from all the witnesses who testified last June:

It is imperative that the committee be able to hear from any relevant source with information on the matter who could inform the committee’s report on this bill. We cannot limit ourselves to just the PBO, given that the information that was released in September by their office is both new to us and to our witnesses that we heard from previously. It cannot be assumed that this information will not have an impact on their perspectives, given that we would return to this bill with the understanding that this report could change our perspectives as well.

That is fine, I would say.

At that one two-hour meeting with two panels of the Agriculture Committee, there were seven witnesses who were invited. Even at that number, I truly believe this could be achieved, even after reinviting all the witnesses in June, within, at most, one meeting for the Parliamentary Budget Officer and another meeting for two panels of seven witnesses. That’s two meetings in total.

I’m trying to understand this unlimited period of time. Honourable senators, I trust the members of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry will not want to delay this restudy and re-report, as they have an interesting and promising soil conservation study and report that I am also looking forward to reading.

Last but not least, honourable colleagues, I have received a letter from a witness at the June meeting of the Committee on Agriculture and Forestry. I should also say that this letter is very adversarial to the speech I gave.

Honourable colleagues, if need be, I will again state in this house that I spent more than a week in carrying out research, and every word in that speech is accurate. I challenge anyone who wants to question any word or research in that speech.

That said, the letter from the witness says, “As an unelected senator, please do not deprive our P.E.I.-elected representative in Ottawa —” that would be the people in the other place, “— the opportunity to vote on this important issue.”

Colleagues, I raised this in my original speech, because my office did the research from 2015 to 2020. The P.E.I. representative in the other place could not vote on this issue because at no time was there a motion or a bill in the other place on which to vote.

Honourable colleagues, I trust your judgment with regard to the amendment and subamendment, and I also trust that the members of the Agriculture and Forestry Committee will do the right thing for the Senate as an institution and, particularly with regard to this bill, the P.E.I. working poor who are facing a very unfortunate winter ahead. Thank you.

The Hon. the Speaker: Is leave granted, honourable senators?

Hon. Pierre J. Dalphond: Honourable senators, I note that this item is at 15 days, but I am not ready to speak at this time. Therefore, with leave of the Senate and notwithstanding rule 4-15(3), I move the adjournment of the debate for the balance of my time.

The Hon. the Speaker: My apologies, Senator Manning. It is now six o’clock and, pursuant to rule 3-3(1), I am required to leave the chair until 8 p.m. unless there is an agreement that we not see the clock.

Is there agreement?

Senator Plett: No.

Hon. Percy E. Downe: First, I want to compliment you on both your speech and your remarks. Obviously, this bill is very important for working Canadians. Too many children are growing up without dental care. You outlined the concerns about getting a job, social inclusion and so on. It becomes a class issue if you don’t have your teeth fixed, and everybody else in your classroom does.

Second, I want to add this is a benefit of the coalition between the NDP and the Liberals because it has been a long-time commitment of the NDP to initiate this program. The Liberal government wanted to do it for many years and now has done it. This is great cooperation between the two parties in the House of Commons.

Would you share my view that we should strive for a standard of care for all Canadians that is equal to the assistance senators currently receive for dental, health care, drug coverage and pension coverage in this country?

Senator Yussuff: Thank you, Senator Downe, for your wonderful question. In this chamber, we have a lot of privileges. If Canadians could only enjoy them, we would certainly have a far more equal country. One day, maybe.

Senator Downe, I remember vividly in your province when a good friend of mine named Wes Sheridan was crafting the dental program to support working families in P.E.I. He was writing his budget and he told me what he was doing. I was so proud of his leadership because it allowed many poor kids in the province of P.E.I. — one of the smallest provinces in our country — to say they deserve the same thing that other provinces could afford despite the fact they didn’t have the same level of revenue. They saw it as a priority.

I do believe we have a long way to go. If Canadians can have the same benefits as senators have in this chamber, I hope that’s where we will get to one day. Until then, we will have to continue to build it incrementally until we get there. Thank you very much.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read the third time?

(On motion of Senator Gold, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for third reading at the next sitting of the Senate.)

(1420)

[English]

Senator Seidman: Thank you, senator. What you’re asking is a really critical question. There is no doubt about that. But the fact is that we don’t have a lot of data to provide those answers. The provinces in Canada are where dental services are currently provided for children, and there are varying degrees of recording this. Dentists don’t keep this information. They can’t. If you ask them, they will say they don’t record this information. Therefore, it falls upon some agency to do this. There isn’t a national agency that records that information because it’s a provincial responsibility.

How to evaluate the success of its outcome is the big question here. There is no doubt about that.

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: My question is for the Leader of the Government in the Senate.

Last year, Quebec reported 26 femicides, two thirds of which occurred in a domestic violence context. Every year, the Quebec courts handle more than 20,000 cases of domestic violence, and in 90% of cases, women are the victims. Every year, police in Quebec receive more than 60,000 reports of domestic violence. In Canada, last year, 173 women were killed in a domestic violence context, not to mention the children.

In its seven years in office, why hasn’t Justin Trudeau’s Liberal government passed legislation to make women in Canada safer?

Senator Seidman: Thank you, senator. There we have really hit the wall because, as you know, data collection in this country is a huge issue. We discovered that during COVID. Certainly, every province collects their own data. There is not a lot of sharing. The data that is collected isn’t consistently gathered in the same way in every province, so it’s very hard from the point of view of being comparable.

Data is what you use to analyze whether the program is successful or not. In this case, we have an interim, two-year situation. I think it’s a serious problem to ever find out whether the outcome has been achieved. For any long-term program, one would have to build in some kind of data collection system in order to be able to analyze whether you’re really meeting your objectives.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.

Senator McCallum: My question is the same as Senator Deacon’s. What are the outcomes of these programs that you have looked into? I looked at those same programs as well, and I’m looking at data such as: How many accessed the program? How many completed care? How many were on maintenance? How many needed continued care? If they did, what was the reason why their teeth required treatment?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.