Senator Dalphond: Thank you so much for this very useful information. I understand from your previous exchanges, including the one with Senator Batters, that in some cases, a pre‑study has yielded very interesting results for the subsequent study of the bill, in two ways.

In some cases, the message sent by the pre-study has resulted in amendments to the bill in the House of Commons. One case that comes to mind is the example given by Senator Batters.

In the case of medical assistance in dying not so long ago, that is, about a year and a half or two years ago, the Senate committee conducted a pre-study of Bill C-7 that did not deal with the substance of the technical details of the clauses, but rather the broad principles and thrusts of the legislative expansion.

Following the pre-study, the committee tabled a lengthy report in the Senate, which subsequently studied the bill thoroughly, drawing on the lessons learned from the committee’s pre-study. The Senate then proposed no fewer than five or six amendments, several of which were adopted by the House of Commons.

A pre-study does not mean that there will not be an in-depth study later. I understand that the government may see pre-studies as a way to speed up the subsequent study, but there is no incompatibility between a pre-study and a later substantive study that is enriched by the first.

I also understand, from what Senator Batters was saying, that the pre-study sometimes even helps enrich the debate in the other place, so pre-studies can have a positive impact.

Is that what I am to understand from the exchange between you and Senator Batters?

Senator Saint-Germain: Thank you, Senator Dalphond, for providing the answer in your question. I would add, as I indicated in my speech, that a pre-study does not preclude or replace a study if one is necessary.

Often the pre-study is on substantive issues and complex bills. You gave the very important example of medical assistance in dying. Canadians had different points of view, all of them justified, on a moral issue that was often the subject of disinformation and that deserved clarification that went beyond partisanship.

The answer is yes. A pre-study allows for in-depth discussions on principles and substantive issues and helps enrich a later study.

[English]

Hon. Donna Dasko: Honourable senators, I rise today to speak on the motion before us, which would authorize the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications to conduct a pre-study of Bill C-11. My comments today are brief.

Bill C-11, sometimes called the online streaming act, is a substantial bill that will essentially take the regulatory framework we now have over broadcasting and apply it to online undertakings. Numerous stakeholders and interests are involved, including cultural producers and creators, the legacy broadcasters in television and radio, online streamers, social media platforms and many others.

Many of us will remember this bill’s predecessor, Bill C-10. That bill was referred to the House Committee on Canadian Heritage for pre-study on February 1 and for regular study on February 19 of last year. That committee held 30 meetings before returning the bill to the House for third reading in mid-June.

Over those four months, that committee heard from numerous witnesses and proposed many amendments. The process involved significant debate of the issues but was contentious, messy and overly political. Indeed, significant changes to the bill were introduced late in that process at clause-by-clause consideration. Unfortunately, it was too late to call any witnesses representing the interests that would be materially affected by those changes.

That bill then made its way to our chamber, completed second reading and was referred to our Senate Committee on Transport and Communications on June 29 of last year. My Independent Senators Group colleagues on the committee and I were willing to work over last summer to examine the bill in committee in response to the expressed urgency in passing this bill, but that offer was not taken up. As a result, the Senate conducted no committee work on that bill, which died on the Order Paper when the election was called. Its successor, Bill C-11, has now completed second reading and has just been referred to committee in the other place. That committee held two meetings this week but has not yet taken up Bill C-11.

We have on the table a motion to send this bill to Senate committee for a pre-study. I have serious concerns about this. In my view, a pre-study is not a substitute for proper Senate study of a bill. Over the last few weeks, Senate committees have been engaged in pre-studies on a number of bills, including Bill S-6 and Bill C-19.

I have been part of some of these deliberations, and I offer some of my observations about this process. First, the participants have been excellent. The committee chairs have done an excellent job. The witnesses have made solid arguments regarding the bills on the table, staff have worked hard and senators have asked pertinent questions.

However, in my view, the process has been unsatisfactory. Typically, government witnesses present the bill and take questions, followed by other witnesses who offer a critique of the bill or propose changes to it. In some cases, their suggestions for change cannot be adequately assessed. We want to know: Are they practical changes? Do they fit with the goals of the bill? Are they doable? Are they good ideas? These questions come up after the witnesses testify, but often these questions remain unanswered in this process; that is what I have observed. Often there are time limitations to this process, and that is one of the reasons why some of these questions cannot be addressed, but in other cases, proposed changes from witnesses that do seem desirable cannot become amendments to this bill, because this is not possible with our pre-studies.

My concern with Bill C-11 is that I fear we will be doomed to this inadequate process and its shortcomings and that we will not conduct the proper investigation we need on Bill C-11, and we have no assurances that a regular committee study would follow from our pre-study. With Bill C-11, the ideal process, in my view, would be for us to take into account all the learnings from the House of Commons committee, their proceedings and their report, and build from there.

Let’s look at their witnesses, the issues arising from their work and the arguments that have been made, and let’s go forward from there. Of course, amendments may result from their process as well, which a pre-study here would not have and, therefore, could not consider. We wouldn’t have them in a timely fashion, and therefore, we couldn’t consider them. Remember Bill C-10, and how that bill was significantly changed very late in their process.

Honourable senators, during the pandemic over the past couple of years, the number of our Senate sittings was cut back dramatically, our scrutiny of legislation was reduced, with minimal review of so much legislation, and our committee work was curtailed. I look forward to returning to a better and more thorough process as we go forward.

In the end, colleagues, when it comes to Bill C-11, I am looking for assurances that a regular committee review process will take place. Even if a pre-study is undertaken, we should and must commit to this. If committees are indeed the masters of their fates, as we learned yesterday, I will be seeking the views of committee colleagues over the next several days for their commitment to a fulsome process.

But there is more than just that. We also need assurances that the committee will have the time it needs to do its work. When I hear about the urgent need to pass a bill, I can’t help but wonder whether we will really have the time to review a bill. If we keep hearing about the urgent need, it most certainly raises questions about whether we will be given the time.

Honourable senators, let’s do this properly. Thank you very much.

Senator Dasko: Yes.

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

(Motion agreed to.)

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Simons, calling the attention of the Senate to the challenges and opportunities that Canadian municipalities face, and to the importance of understanding and redefining the relationships between Canada’s municipalities and the federal government.

Hon. Brent Cotter: Honourable senators, I rise to speak in support of the thrust of Senator Simons’s inquiry regarding municipalities in Canada. I will speak to five themes in my remarks. So that the thread will not be lost — and particularly not lost to me — I will announce them as I get to them. The five themes are identity; history; economic and social influence; autonomy and subsidiarity and community.

You will be familiar with speakers whose remarks proceed from the sublime to the ridiculous. Today I will try to do the opposite; that is, I will start with the ridiculous and try to move to the sublime. Wish me luck.

I have two stories about identity. In September 1971, I had taken the train from Saskatoon to Halifax. It was my first day of law school at Dalhousie University. I was sitting in the student lounge. My future friend Senator Wetston was probably there, but I didn’t know him at the time. Indeed, I knew no one. I was extremely insecure and unsure of myself.

Another student walked over and introduced himself to me. He said, “Hi, I’m Jim McPherson.” I introduced myself and he then asked where I was from. I replied, “Moose Jaw.” And he said he was from Lunenburg. He said, “We have many traditions and ways of being in Lunenburg, and I am sure you have many traditions and ways of being in Moose Jaw; but,” he said, “one of the traditions that we don’t have in Lunenburg is that we don’t go around with our flies down.”

I run the risk in telling this story that you will only remember that punchline and in future check whether my fly is down. But I’d like you to remember a different point, at least for today.

When it came to identifying ourselves, both Jim and I referenced the town or city we were from — where, essentially, our identities started.

Here’s a more serious story: I served for a number of years as the Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs in the Government of Saskatchewan. During the first year in the position, I was invited to make a presentation to the provincial cabinet and the premier. I wanted to make my first point regarding isolation; that is, the two solitudes that existed and, in my view, still exist between Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities and people in Saskatchewan, and to communicate something that had bothered me for years.

I handed out to each cabinet minister and the premier a Saskatchewan highway map and asked them to locate on the map the village of Herschel, Saskatchewan. Everybody found it within seconds. It was the home of my then-minister Bernie Wiens, a village of perhaps 30 people.

I then asked them to find “IR41.” There followed much confusion. I gave hints. We eventually got there: IR41 is the Poundmaker Cree Nation, a community at that time of 1,041 people with an historic and honourable name in our history. I have a portrait of Chief Poundmaker in my office. But our highway maps dignified this community with a number, and not even a name. To the credit of Premier Romanow, he immediately pointed to the Minister of Highways and said, “fix this.” He understood that our identities are deeply connected with our communities.

We identify with our communities. We take pride in them. Our communities matter. Their health and prosperity matter today more than ever.

My next theme is history. In 1867, Canada was a predominantly rural country. Nearly 85% of Canadians lived in rural areas. Ottawa was a town of 18,000. Our biggest city, Montreal, had a population of 107,000; and Toronto, 56,000. In case you are wondering, Moose Jaw, in 1867, had a population of zero. It didn’t then exist.

Towns and cities were not unimportant in 1867, but they were not what they are today. It is not surprising, therefore, when the British North America Act, 1867 was written, civic leaders were not at the table and matters of local concern were assigned not to these relatively insignificant towns and cities, but to provinces. And as we have seen only too clearly in recent court cases, towns and cities — essentially the creations of provinces — even as large as Toronto are sometimes left to the whims of provincial inclination.

Today we see a complete reversal of that picture. Residents of urban areas now make up over 80% of the Canadian population, a percentage that has been rising almost uninterrupted for decades. The town of Ottawa, that 18,000-person town, is now home to 1,017,000 people. Toronto’s population, that 56,000‑person place, is now 2.794 million people. The city of Moose Jaw, I’m sure you are anxious to know, is the home of 33,655 wonderful people.

Now, on to economic and social influence. Our towns and cities are nothing like the communities of 1867. They are much larger, more dynamic, more central to our culture and more engaged in the delivery of services to our citizens. Urban centres are now more than ever engines of our economy. There are a few highlights to emphasize the point.

The City of Saskatoon operates the largest bus service in Saskatchewan. The budget of the City of Toronto is $13.53 billion. In Toronto there are over 800,000 businesses. It is home to 38% of Canada’s business headquarters and a $364 billion economy which represents 20% of Canada’s GDP.

Remarkable as that seems, urban Canada continues to grow and prosper, despite its modest status constitutionally as creatures of the provinces, an historical curiosity of 105 years’ standing.

As we hear from civic leaders and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities on a regular basis, it is a challenge for them. For example, the revenue backbone of our Canadian municipalities is property taxes. They account for 32% to 60% of the municipal revenue depending on the city and the province.

It often feels to me that the two key revenue sources for my city of Saskatoon are property taxes and parking tickets; sadly, I contribute to each.

More seriously, we need to take these issues seriously in a principled and long-term way.

The next theme of my speech is subsidiarity. One of the governing principles in the establishment of our country was that of subsidiarity; that is or was that functions performed effectively by subordinate or local organizations — here, I invite you to think of towns or cities — belong more properly to them than to the dominant central organization. Here I invite you to think of the provincial or federal government.

This was the central basis upon which, in the assignment of powers in the Canadian constitution, matters of a so-called local or private nature were assigned to the so-called subordinate organization at that time — the provinces, but not towns or cities.

When one thinks about the present, however, if we were to design a governance regime for our country on the basis, among others, of the principle of subsidiarity, we would be likely to provide much greater responsibility and autonomy to our urban governments.

Now, we are not going to rewrite the Constitution to restructure this modern reality through constitutional means, but there are other ways. Many have reflected on how this might be done. I don’t have a magic-bullet answer, but it must be based on a recognition — and partnerships on the part of the federal and provincial governments — to achieve organized, structural and stable modernization of the legal and governance authorities for towns and cities, as well as stable, long-term access to fiscal resources, to enable our cities to deliver so many government services critical to our citizens. This should include long-term fiscal framework agreements — not so much piecemeal but long-term fiscal framework agreements. It should include structured access to new revenue sources. It could include new authorities for our cities.

Let me provide one example, which we discussed at the Agriculture and Forestry Committee a short while ago with Mayor Braun of the City of Abbotsford. I served for a few years as Saskatchewan’s deputy minister of municipal affairs. As I mention these different positions, you might be thinking, “This is a guy who couldn’t hold a job,” and you might be right.

In my first year there, we rewrote The Cities Act of Saskatchewan to give cities the status and authority, within limits, of “natural persons” — essentially turning the grant of governing authority upside down. Rather than granting only specific powers, The Cities Act gave urban municipalities in Saskatchewan sweeping authority except where specifically limited in the legislation.

There are many other ideas out there to strengthen and vitalize our cities from wiser commentators than me.

My last point is about community. All of these ideas, and many other possibilities, are proffered to strengthen our communities — and it cannot be overstated how important that is for us, for our communities and for our country.

I am reminded of remarks delivered in a slightly different context by my friend John Whyte but which I think are relevant to this important conversation, particularly in terms of what governments can and must do together to build our society and country. Mr. Whyte once said, more eloquently than I could ever do:

A nation is built when the communities that comprise it make commitments to it, when they forego choices and opportunities on behalf of a nation, . . . when the communities that comprise it make compromises, when they offer each other guarantees, when they make transfers and perhaps more pointedly, when they receive from others the benefits of national solidarity. The threads of a thousand acts of accommodation are the fabric of a nation. . . .

In conclusion, let me say simply that we at all levels of government owe to our municipalities acts of accommodation — acts that benefit us all and that, woven together, comprise the fabric of a wonderful nation. Thank you, hiy hiy.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

(At 5:34 p.m., the Senate was continued until May 31, 2022, at 2 p.m.)

Hon. Mary Coyle: Honourable senators, it is with delight, affection and gratitude that I rise today in the Senate of Canada to honour and pay tribute to my colleague, my dear friend, accomplished and innovative community development leader, creative educator and all-round good guy Gord Cunningham on the occasion of his retirement today from his role of the Executive Director of the Coady International Institute.

Gord Cunningham has had a career and a life of many accomplishments, be it his role with the Wabigoon Lake First Nation helping to establish their successful wild rice export company, with Calmeadow’s First Peoples Fund and Calmeadow Nova Scotia and then the past 25 years with the Coady International Institute, where he has had pioneering roles in the areas of microfinance, asset-based citizen-led development and community economic analysis. He co-edited a very influential book with Dr. Alison Mathie entitled, From Clients to Citizens: Communities Changing the Course of their Own Development.

Gord has worked locally in Nova Scotia and across Canada with First Nations, Métis and Inuit communities, and has worked in Colombia, Ecuador, Egypt, Ethiopia, Haiti, India, Indonesia, Kenya, South Africa, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam and the U.S.

As he retires from the Coady International Institute, he leaves a powerful network of 10,000 community leader alumni in 130 countries around the world, all working locally to make the world a better place.

Honourable senators, I was Gord Cunningham’s boss for almost 25 years at Calmeadow in Toronto and then at Coady. Together, we loved to work with people to make things happen. Colleagues, Gord Cunningham would give you the shirt off his back and, in my case, he actually did. He is humble, generous to a fault, loyal, dedicated, extremely well-informed, a lot of fun and, honestly, one of the most intelligent people I have ever met.

Colleagues, one of my favourite Gord-isms is, “We are surrounded by insurmountable opportunities.” This outlook is how Gord works, leads, plays and inspires.

In closing, I want to wish Gord Cunningham a happy and healthy retirement, exploring and enjoying those many opportunities awaiting you, Marilyn, Marshall, Oliver and Elin in your next chapter. Gord, the world is a much better place for you being in it, and I know I join thousands of people across Canada and around the world in thanking you for your professional contributions and the gift of your friendship.

Honourable senators, please join me in applauding this remarkable Canadian leader, Gord Cunningham. Thank you.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for the question. The importance of search and rescue and the equipment necessary is well known to the Senate through the study done by the Fisheries Committee, with Senator Manning as chair. I had the pleasure of participating in that study.

Honourable senators, the Government of Canada has made significant investments and continues to do so to ensure that our air force members have the equipment they need to keep Canadians safe.

To give you a few examples, we have augmented our strategic airlift and refuelling capability through the Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project, procuring 88 fighter jets to replace our CF-18 fleet, acquiring 28 CH-148 Cyclone helicopters and 16 new fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft. The government is committed to ensuring that the Royal Canadian Air Force has the capacity and capabilities that it needs.

Senator Gagné: Thank you for the question, senator.

That is a small part of the study, a fairly limited part compared to all the changes that are being made to the Official Languages Act. I think that the policy has to be discussed in a broader context, and that is why it keeps coming up, with questions about how that policy will be developed within a very specific legislative framework.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. It is simply not the case that the welfare of Canadians with disabilities is not a priority. Quite on the contrary.

The speed with which we all saw CERB introduced was in response to a global pandemic, and we all, as parliamentarians, did our part to make sure that Canadians, including those with disabilities, received the help they needed through those early and uncertain times. The provisions and the disability benefit to which you refer are important policy matters that are under active study by the government.

Senator Saint-Germain: Thank you for the question, Senator Carignan.

I think our pre-studies are done with just as much care. Let me point out that we have been in a pandemic for over two years now. That has to have influenced government legislation, the work of the House of Commons and our own chamber’s work. I feel that these pandemic times are exceptional and make it hard to compare anything to how both houses of Parliament have operated in normal times over the past few decades.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Senator Gold, the Royal Canadian Air Force currently has 13 Cormorant search and rescue helicopters that provide search and rescue for our entire country. We recently lost one in a crash at 9 Wing Air Force Base in Gander.

In August 2019, the former Minister of National Defence announced plans to purchase at least two more Cormorants and upgrade the entire fleet of aircraft. However, a recent answer to my question on the Senate Order Paper shows that, almost three years later, there are no active plans to follow through on this promise, and the Department of National Defence is aiming to make a decision this calendar year.

Leader, why is your NDP-Liberal government again failing to provide the men and women of our air force the equipment they need to fulfill their search and rescue operations as promised in 2019?

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question. The government does not intend to be the long-term owner of the Trans Mountain Expansion Project, and the government will divest its ownership in a way and at a time that benefits all Canadians. The government, indeed, announced that no additional public money will be spent on the project and that Trans Mountain Corporation would secure the necessary funding from third-party sources to complete the project.

I’m advised, colleagues, that the corporation has now secured third-party financing with a group of Canadian financial institutions, and this will be used to fund the project construction costs. As part of this process, the government is providing a loan guarantee to the participating financial institutions, and this is a well-known practice for projects of this size. It does not reflect any new public spending.

This project is in the national interest, and it will make Canada and the Canadian economy more sovereign and more resilient. In that regard, and in all respects, the government remains committed to having good energy projects that fit in with our climate plan.

Senator Galvez: This is now the third letter from the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. Canada is late submitting its twenty-first to twenty-third combined periodic report to the committee, which was due last year. Does the government plan to respond to these letters and fulfil its reporting commitments?

Senator Gagné: I completely agree. I also believe that, seeing as we have a very complex bill dealing with a quasi-constitutional law that has not been reviewed for over 30 years, along with the experience and content we’ve been able to gather from the 300 witnesses who appeared and the more than 70 briefs we received, all with very specific recommendations, I think we are in a position to have a second look when we receive the bill for the second, or even third, time.

Senator Gagné: Thank you for the question, senator.

The committee is currently studying the immigration policy, which is extremely important in the context of the bill. The bill includes an obligation to develop an immigration policy, so it’s an integral part of the bill.

As I mentioned in my speech, whenever we hear from witnesses, the immigration policy in Bill C-13 inevitably comes up, both in the questions and in the answers.

Hon. Raymonde Gagné (Legislative Deputy to the Government Representative in the Senate), pursuant to notice of May 18, 2022, moved:

That, when the Senate next adjourns after the adoption of this motion, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, May 31, 2022, at 2 p.m.

Senator Gold: I thank the honourable senator for the question.

The government condemns racism in all its forms and recognizes and understands the importance of combatting systemic racism and discrimination in Canada and, indeed, has taken concrete steps over the past years to address these issues. In the last two years alone, the government has committed close to $100 million through Canada’s Anti-Racism Strategy, including $70 million to support community organizations across Canada addressing issues of anti-racism and multiculturalism. Budget 2022 will invest $85 million to support the work under way to launch a new anti-racism strategy and national action plan on combatting hate.

With regard to the specifics of your question, I will make inquiries with the government and hope to report back to the chamber in a timely fashion.

Hon. Brian Francis: Honourable senators, my question is for Senator Gold. Islanders who applied for Employment Insurance, or EI, during the pandemic were automatically put on to CERB without their knowledge and without confirmation of their eligibility. Now Canada Revenue Agency, or CRA, is sending letters to Islanders asking them to repay up to $2,000, which has created confusion and frustration. To us, $2,000 may not seem like a lot, but it is for Islanders struggling to make ends meet. P.E.I. has the highest inflation rate in the country, in addition to high unemployment and rising fuel costs.

Senator Gold, why is Canada Revenue Agency requesting repayments from Islanders who applied for EI but were automatically switched to CERB? That approach is not fair or reasonable, especially for those without the financial means to pay.