Senator Carignan: You went over the bills the government introduced in the Senate, but did you also realize that, during this session, the Senate is studying more bills at first reading than at second reading? Right now, we have more bills up for pre-study than we do for an objective second reading. Did you add up those numbers?

Senator Miville-Dechêne: First of all, your internet connection is not very good so I missed some of what you said. Putting that aside, there is no one specific moment when we need to conduct a study or pre-study. You keep repeating that the session is ending in four weeks.

I have to admit that I find it absolutely unbelievable to start hearing from senators in May that we no longer have time to do things. I must say that this is not in keeping with my former experience as a journalist, where we used all the time at our disposal to get things done. I know that politics is different, and I am aware of that, but it’s quite concerning when I hear, “No can do, we’re out of time.” We are discussing the fact that we have no time left, instead of doing what needs to be done. That is just absurd.

I am not saying that we need to do a pre-study on everything. As Senator Saint-Germain stated, we are not quite back to normal. We don’t have enough time in committee. I’m sure this has an impact on the pace of our work. I am convinced that we should probably conduct pre-studies for bills that are more important, more complex and, in this case, controversial. It’s obvious that there will be more controversy.

My stance on this is pretty firm, but I understand that you don’t agree with me, Senator Housakos. We can debate this in our committee and try to bring in good witnesses to answer our questions.

Senator Carignan: Am I to understand that, without even receiving an order of reference or permission to conduct a pre‑study of Bill C-13, the committee is already studying immigration policy? Does that mean it’s already studying Bill C-13?

Senator Miville-Dechêne: That’s exactly why I’m saying that in this case, if we want to do a pre-study, it would be urgent to get on it instead of just talking about it. If we continue to discuss this and vote next week, we’re losing out on 10 potential days of work.

No, I’ve never experienced that problem before, and I probably shouldn’t have compared journalism to politics. I just wanted to highlight this idea of using all of the time available to get things done, instead of simply talking about deadlines and saying that we don’t have enough time.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

[English]

Senator Saint-Germain: Thank you, Senator Dalphond, for providing the answer in your question. I would add, as I indicated in my speech, that a pre-study does not preclude or replace a study if one is necessary.

Often the pre-study is on substantive issues and complex bills. You gave the very important example of medical assistance in dying. Canadians had different points of view, all of them justified, on a moral issue that was often the subject of disinformation and that deserved clarification that went beyond partisanship.

The answer is yes. A pre-study allows for in-depth discussions on principles and substantive issues and helps enrich a later study.

[English]

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Senator Saint-Germain, yesterday our colleague Senator Carignan suggested it’s not the job of the Senate to provide sober second thought on measures introduced by public servants but to properly study bills passed in the House of Commons. I’m wondering if you’re aware that under Senator Carignan’s leadership as then deputy leader with our colleague Senator Martin moved a government motion to pre-study the former Bill C-23, known as the Fair Elections Act, on April 1, 2014, and subsequently gave notice of time allocation on the same day, limiting debate on even the need for a pre-study.

On that same day during Question Period, Senator Carignan was asked about the pre-study of Bill C-23, to which he responded:

As I often say, further study is further study, and having the opportunity to study a bill at the same time as the House of Commons does not mean we cannot fulfill our role of sober second thought after the bill passes in the House of Commons and is sent to us in the Senate. It is better to make as many improvements as we can. If we have the opportunity to study this bill twice, so much the better.

Therefore, Senator Saint-Germain, do you share this view that Senate pre-studies can allow the Senate to engage in proper study and debate and complement the work of the elected House of Commons?

Senator Dupuis: I was wondering if a pre-study would be a good opportunity for the committee to conduct what I would call an “educational” exercise. This is a fairly complex bill, with technical and technological aspects that the general public may have trouble deciphering. Even for us senators, it can be difficult to follow. Wouldn’t this be a good opportunity to do some educating? Wouldn’t a pre-study also be an opportunity to hold the government accountable for the choices it has made in this bill?