SoVote

Decentralized Democracy

Senate Volume 153, Issue 20

44th Parl. 1st Sess.
February 23, 2022 09:00AM
  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Again, as I said earlier, the argument can be made whether or not it was needed. The vote is whether it’s necessary today.

Quite frankly, Senator Gold, regardless of what a police chief says, regardless of what my good friend Vernon White said earlier today there is no reason for it today, whether a police chief would like to have it or not. To me, you listen to that advice. You consult.

But we have the majority of our provinces, the premiers, the ministers of Justice, the solicitors general in the majority of our provinces saying it’s not needed. I shouldn’t be asking you questions, you’re asking me questions, I understand, but do you not believe that these solicitors generals are not speaking to police chiefs as well?

What does consultation mean? That the Prime Minister gives them a call and says this is what I’m doing? Because if he asked Jason Kenney, is it okay? Jason Kenney said, “No.” Premier Legault said, “No.” Premier Stefanson of Manitoba and Scott Moe said, “No.”

So what is consultation? Did he talk to the police chief in Saskatoon and in Regina? Did he talk to the police chief in Winnipeg? Or did he talk just to the premier?

He talked to the police chief in Ottawa, I’m sure. But that’s one city. This is a national Emergencies Act. This is not an Emergencies Act for the city of Ottawa. If that’s what he had declared, that would be one thing. Then speaking to the Ottawa chief of police should certainly suffice.

But I do not think, Senator Gold — and I won’t go out on a limb. Well, I guess I am out on a limb saying that I don’t think. I don’t think the Prime Minister or anybody in the federal government called every police chief in every city in the provinces where they said no and asked the police chief, “Your premier says no, would you want us to still continue?” I don’t think they did.

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Thank you, Senator Bernard. Your question really does not pertain to the Emergencies Act. You’re asking me a question, do I believe that one person’s rights trump another’s person’s rights? No, I don’t. If somebody did something illegal, if somebody destroyed property, then those people should be charged.

If somebody is pulling down statues across our country, if somebody is putting a rope around Sir John A. Macdonald’s neck somewhere in our country and it’s pulled down, that person should be charged. If somebody is burning a church somewhere in our country, that’s arson. That person should be charged. If somebody is promoting hate in Ottawa, that person should be charged.

But you’re giving me a whole lot of hypotheticals saying you have heard this, you have heard that. One person with a flag carrying a swastika who should have been run out of town or whatever we would have wanted to do with that individual, but that does not constitute the rally being promoted by racist people. That’s not fair.

So unless the people have done something illegal — I’m sorry, Senator Bernard. You and I may have differences of opinion on issues, but as I said in my speech, I will defend to the death your right to your opinion. It may be different than mine. The same thing here.

The ironic thing is — much as I do support the police, and I’ve made that clear and I try to do that every chance I get — the injunction to get the truckers to stop blowing their horn was a private citizen here in Ottawa, not the police.

If somebody is doing something illegal, they need to be charged. If they’re promoting racism, they need to be charged. But they weren’t. I’m not going to condemn somebody if they haven’t been charged with a crime.

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Bernard: I want to raise the issue of race privilege. The sentiment in several of the speeches that we’ve heard on this debate have alluded to and spoken to the deep divide in this country as though it’s something new. It is not new. Deep divide has been felt by many in this country for generations.

I’m wondering about the role of privilege, the invisibility of privilege and how we make this more visible.

You and several people have also raised the lack of action. It’s given me pause to think about how privilege has led to this escalation, led us to where we are now, to this debate we’re having at this moment in time.

But I don’t think there’s been an analysis of privilege. My concern is that privilege will be used to ignore the privilege that is actually at play and has been at play during this blockade.

I think that privilege has allowed the convoy participants to act without consequences, that entitlement of participants allowed the occupation to escalate past the point of a demonstration, to the point that democracy was indeed threatened and residents’ rights were infringed upon.

Senator Plett, I would like to ask your thoughts on the role that privilege played and how privilege led to the use of the Emergencies Act to deal with this blockade. Thank you.

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Again, Senator Bernard, I’m trying to equate your question to the Emergencies Act here. It’s not that I have any issue with answering your question, but in my opinion, my answer will be irrelevant to the Emergencies Act.

Let me try, in any event. Again, I saw the vast majority of what was happening in Ottawa from a television set, as I think most of the people in this chamber did. I don’t think we were here in Ottawa for much of it. We were watching it on television. And we were getting the unbiased, unvarnished reports from our CBC, which we all appreciated so much.

But when I looked at it, I saw men. I saw women. I saw Black. I saw Indigenous. I saw a number of different ethnicities all being part of it. No, I’m sorry, I would disagree with you, Senator Bernard, that this had anything at all — the Prime Minister called them a fringe group and misogynists. There were as many women there as there were men — maybe not quite — but, nevertheless, there were men, women, children. There was a mixture.

There was a mixture of frustrated people who were tired of lockdowns. They were tired of COVID. COVID is not the Prime Minister’s fault, but they were tired of that and they were here expressing themselves.

No. I’m sorry, Senator Bernard. I would disagree with your assessment of that.

[Translation]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Certainly, Senator Carignan, I would share many of your same feelings with that. I think our rights and freedoms are being infringed upon, certainly with something like this, drastically infringed upon.

I find when somebody like Minister Freeland talks about our liberal democracy, and Prime Minister Trudeau does the same thing, I think they are the drivers in pushing that back.

Senator Bernard said in her question to me that the dissension has been in our country for years and I agree with her statement. But I think it has been drastically escalated in the last half-dozen years.

I think the Prime Minister that we have today is driving that and will continue to drive that down because I do not see in him the spirit to give people the rights that they deserve. When he says something like he admires the general dictatorship of China, those are things that will drive that index, I believe, Senator Carignan. Yes, I believe it will continue to go down.

[Translation]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: I would certainly agree with that, Senator Carignan. I believe he has disdain for anybody that he believes is a little bit of a lower rank than he is. I find it difficult because if ever there is a person who portrays the sense of privilege, it is the Prime Minister.

Yet we have people who are supporting him when they, in the same breath, say they disagree with the sense of entitlement that people have. Here we have a Prime Minister who portrays that every day. He did before COVID. He initiated the fact that he did not want to be in Parliament.

I will refer back. I don’t do this to make political points, and I’m serious even if people will not believe it. The Prime Minister, prior to Justin Trudeau, Senator Carignan — you know that he had a disdain for travelling to any foreign meeting when the House was sitting because he had so much respect for the House that he believed he should be there when the House is sitting.

We now have a Prime Minister who does anything not to be there because he has a complete disdain for Parliament, a complete disdain, in my opinion, for democracy and, quite frankly, a complete disdain for over half of our country.

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Hon. Patti LaBoucane-Benson: Honourable senators, I heard Senator Housakos say earlier that the government should have ended public health measures, as the convoy advocated, to clear the streets of Ottawa.

My question to you, senator, is: Should this government or any government reward people engaging in illegal activity by giving them their desired policy outcomes, notwithstanding the advice of health experts?

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: I didn’t hear Senator Housakos say that quite like that.

Senator, what I do believe is that there should have been negotiations. No. Did I believe that it was the right thing for this convoy to come in and have a memorandum of understanding, a small portion of it?

We need to remember, senators, that this convoy took on a life of its own. There were different factions of this convoy by the time it got to Ottawa. There was a group that started it in Western Canada and, as it came across, it was like an octopus; it got tentacles, it got more legs and different convoys started.

And it was not the convoy that started in Western Canada that had that memorandum of understanding. It was a different part of that convoy that threw that in there. Did I agree with that? No. 

I had a call today from an individual in Manitoba who asked me, “How is it possible? Don, what can we do, as citizens, to invoke a motion of non-confidence in the government so that we can defeat the government?”

I said to him, “What you can do, my friend, is you can vote for the Conservative Party of Canada in the next election so that you have the right government so that we can get rid of this one.” I said, “That is when we overthrow governments, come election time.” And that is what I believe.

I didn’t agree with that memorandum of understanding. I thought it was stupid. And nobody believed it would happen. It was ridiculous. It was silly. And it gave a sense of illegitimacy to something that started off as a very legitimate concept.

So I believe in the general concept of elections, and I’ll stand here and say that this organization and that organization hurt our election chances. And then I’m going to spend the next couple of years trying to become stronger and trying to defeat the Liberals come the next election. I’m going to continue to do that. But I believe in a democracy, senator.

I’ve started talking now, and I may not have even touched on your question. And I’m going to do what Senator Gold does and ask you to repeat the question, and maybe I’ll get right at it. I put a little more on the record, anyway.

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Let me say this: I think they should have gotten rid of the vaccine mandates before the trucks ever left Alberta, and then none of this would have happened. If your question is if I believe the government should operate under a threat, my answer is no. But should the Prime Minister have made an effort to contact the organizers, either himself or through an intermediary, as I suggested they had done at the Oka crisis? Surely he could have done that. He should not have called them a fringe group. He should not have incited hundreds of thousands and even millions of people who agreed with the protest the way he did. He should have tried to make peace.

Provinces were getting rid of mandates already. But instead of getting rid of mandates that the provinces were getting rid of, our Prime Minister just dug in his heels. Do I believe he should have done that? No. But that, in my opinion, senator, is what the Prime Minister did. He dug in his heels, and he said, “There is no way I’m going to give you guys anything, and I’ll just make it worse for you.” That also is not correct.

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Cotter: I really enjoyed the remarks, Senator Plett. I thought they were thoughtful, deep and meaningful and heartfelt. My question is a technical one, and I think it’s an important one. It’s the dialogue that Senator Tannas and I had earlier about what is the time at which we are making this decision.

I’m a lawyer. Sometimes it’s an advantage; sometimes it’s a curse. I don’t want to pose this as some kind of a legal trap, but I want to describe what I think the meaning and intention of the legislation are and invite you to comment. I won’t ask a follow‑up.

The government issues the declaration. They are required then to table the declaration. They are required to table their justification for it — the report, the information about their consultations, and all of that — in relation to the declaration they issued. That comes to us. One would have thought, in the normal course, that that’s what we’re deciding on — whether the case that they made and presented to us was good enough.

The reason that seems to make sense to me — I think maybe Senator Tannas and I disagree — is when you turn the page then, there’s another option, which is, for a group of us, if we think it’s the right course, to initiate a process to revoke an already existing declaration.

That seems to me then to invite us to focus our attention on a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down to the government issuing the declaration and the case it presented to us for justification, so not so much today but presumably last Tuesday or Wednesday or whenever the day is that we should focus on. I won’t ask a follow-up. I’d really appreciate your view about whether that was what the legislation really intended for us to do.

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Certainly, Senator Cotter. Thank you for that. I thought I had addressed, in part at least, your question in my speech, but let me elaborate.

I would counter with this: Of course, I don’t agree that there was ever reason for the Emergencies Act. But aside from that, let’s assume that there was, and let’s assume I even agree that there was. When that emergency was over, the government, on its own volition, should have withdrawn it. And they could have done that, and we wouldn’t be discussing this right now. That would have been the proper thing. If the government agrees there’s no longer an emergency, they shouldn’t just dig their heels in and say, “We want this passed.” That, to me, again, is absolutely silliness. So they should not have done that.

I guess in a simplistic plumber’s view of this situation, if I could, say somebody goes in and robs a bank, and the authorities even believe there may be some terrorists in there, the call is made to the army, and the army is starting to mobilize. Then if the robbers all come out and give themselves up, and they’re being transported over to jail, we would probably call the army off. We wouldn’t say, “Well, come on in any way, and continue. Go into the bank and run around there and do whatever you do.” No, we would call them off.

Well, that same thing would apply here. If there’s no longer a reason, then I don’t think we should have to go to the letter that you’re suggesting, which, by the way, Senator Cotter — twice now, I’ve heard you talk about it — I hope you would be a signatory on that letter. Maybe there are others formulating a letter, but we have well over 10 people who have suggested it from different groups and caucuses here. I hope we can count on your support for that letter on the very vague chance that the motion here passes. I’m still very hopeful — I like to be positive — and think that we will defeat the motion. But if we don’t, certainly that letter is in the making right now. Yes, should we do that if we lose this?

But I think the government should do the principled, grown-up thing and say, “We no longer need this, so we’re dropping it.”

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Hon. Patrick Brazeau: Would the senator take another question, please?

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Brazeau: As you know, Senator Plett, I used to be a member of your party. I’ve heard some things that you said here today that incite me to take the floor and ask you two very simple questions.

You mentioned that there was Indigenous support with respect to this illegal occupation. That has been denounced by many Indigenous leaders across the country and by many Indigenous organizations. Let’s face it: We saw individuals pretending to be Indigenous peoples and singing the “Yabba-Dabba-Doo!” song. If that is your view of Indigenous support with respect to this protest, I would ask you to be very careful with respect to describing who was actually there.

Having said that, could you tell me, in recent memory, when the last time was that your party has given even one ounce of support to any Indigenous protest vis-à-vis what we have seen in the last four weeks?

Also, I’ve been hearing from many members of your party, including a candidate who will run as leader, saying that they supported “truckers.” The narrative that you’re trying to portray is that this started off with good intentions, good people, and then here comes the octopus, and it grew into something more.

My question to you is this: Do you have any evidence that you could perhaps share and table in this house with respect to exactly why you’re saying that this was initially supposed to just be a simple, peaceful protest? The reason I’m supporting this motion is because I have not yet seen anything, and we can get to the bottom of these issues. Is that not what you’re seeking?

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Audette: I noticed that I’m free to ask my question in French because of the interpreters. I thank them for their incredible work.

You know this because I told you in private, and I may have said so before in previous conversations, but I am new here. It will take me years to get comfortable in these very important moccasins. As a mother, grandmother, citizen and senator, I have some concerns.

What can you say to reassure me, Senator Plett, about the small but very powerful groups I’m seeing in Quebec and in other regions? We may not necessarily see them ourselves, but we understand that they exist, we see or we read things. There is an incredibly powerful economic force behind the recent movements.

Ian Lafrenière, the Minister Responsible for Indigenous Affairs, for whom I have a great deal of respect, told the media that in Quebec, even members of the Hells Angels managed to infiltrate the convoy. Naturally, that makes me feel nervous and scared, because that is certainly not the type of protest we should be encouraging, in my opinion.

I would like you to reassure me. If this motion concerning the Emergencies Act is not adopted, how are we going to fight against this type of protest?

What’s more, you and I both know that other governments will come into power in Canada. Let’s say that a government led by someone other than the Liberals suddenly comes into power. If that government takes a very hard line against the emergency measures, I hope that we will collectively remember not to enact this legislation again.

Do you agree with me that what we are discussing today should also apply to future political generations?

[English]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: The ultimate question was: Should it apply for future generations? Without question, it will, which is exactly what I said in my speech a few times. We cannot put the genie back in the bottle. So whatever vote we give, we will be setting the stage for future generations. We will be setting the bar very low for future generations to bring in the Emergencies Act. If we vote yes to this, the bar will be set very low because we need to work in the present, senator. Senator Cotter asked very much that question, about dealing in the present or with what happened a few weeks ago. I don’t believe it was an emergency a few weeks ago.

However, let me say that I have confidence in our police force. I also have confidence in organizations like CSIS, for example. I have confidence in our RCMP, in our municipal police, in our provincial police, in the anti-terrorist organizations that we have, anti-corruption organizations that we have. Without question, there were some idiots that joined this convoy, and there was possibly even some dangerous people who joined this convoy. There was one smoke bomb that got set off here last weekend, and that was about the extent of it.

Now, I believe in our anti-terrorism and our police departments and that they knew where this convoy was. It wasn’t that people were sneaking into Ottawa. Were there Hells Angels in there? I don’t think officially, but maybe there were. But certainly unofficially, were there people of ill repute in a group of thousands of people like that? I’m sure. There is in every protest, senator. In every protest in Ottawa, there will be a few people that we all wish wouldn’t be there, but they have that right.

I asked Senator Gold this question yesterday. When did this become an illegal protest? His answer was very vague on when it became an illegal protest. Until it became an illegal protest, everybody had the right to be there. We should never infringe on your rights or my rights of being at a demonstration. That is our Canadian right.

So I have confidence that if somebody wants to infiltrate Ottawa, they will do what this gunman did. They will sneak up to somebody and shoot that person and then go running into Centre Block, as he did. They won’t come driving from Alberta to Ottawa in a convoy of big semi-trucks with their name all over the side of the truck and advertising that they’re coming here. If the police had thought there was a dangerous element in there, if the police had thought there were arms somewhere on Wellington Street, they may have allowed me to walk down there and hoped, but they wouldn’t have allowed the Prime Minister to drive through that, for sure.

[Translation]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Dagenais: Senator Plett, ever since we started this debate, we’ve heard colleagues here talk about how the use of this act is exceptional and this is a historic moment.

However, don’t you agree that the government failed to show this chamber the proper respect and transparency by not participating in a Committee of the Whole where we could have taken a closer look at why the use of this act was justified? I’m saying this mainly because the Prime Minister himself didn’t show up in the other place to vote on this act that he wants us to vote for blindly.

[English]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Absolutely, Senator Dagenais. I think the Prime Minister has shown a lack of respect for both houses for the last number of years, and certainly for this house. Maybe we’re getting off track here, but we have constantly been upset about the lateness with which we get legislation, and I don’t fault our government leader here in the Senate for that. He’s doing his job. But he gets this legislation and then we have ministers in the other house saying, well, we hope the senators will put their shoulder to the wheel and get this done in 24 hours, even though it has taken us half a year to get it over to you.

So the lack of respect again is being amplified here, Senator Dagenais. Since you’re asking the question right now, I want to reiterate your comments yesterday when you talked about that the government had all the tools in their tool box under the Criminal Code to deal with this situation without this act. I appreciated those comments, and certainly would echo those. Thank you for that, Senator Dagenais.

[Translation]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Forest: Senator, based on your experience and knowledge, you said some idiots and some dangerous people infiltrated the convoy.

Here’s what I’d like to know. Given your knowledge, what distinction do you see between an idiot in this convoy and a dangerous person in this convoy?

[English]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Senator Forest, I’m not sure if that was a set‑up, but I would say an idiot is always a dangerous person. I don’t know that I have to separate those two. As I said earlier, when one person has been seen carrying a flag with a swastika and we make that out as if the group has been infiltrated by Nazis, I find that difficult.

When the Prime Minister and the House of Commons do that, do I support this — this is a person I would call an idiot. Should he have been removed from there immediately? Yes, he should have been. He wasn’t. Why? I don’t know, but I don’t know that there’s a bigger distinction that I can make than that.

[Translation]

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  • Feb/23/22 9:00:00 a.m.

Senator Plett: Yes, I think idiots need help and dangerous people need to be locked up. But it’s not my business to do that. It’s the police’s business. If there were dangerous people, the police should have dealt with it. They shouldn’t have waited two or three weeks. They should have dealt with it. They have the tools in their tool box. As Senator Dagenais said yesterday, they have the tools in their tool box. I think Senator Dalphond alluded to that. I know Senator Carignan did.

That’s something for the police to do, not for you and me to do. We pass laws here. We don’t decide who should be locked up, and we certainly don’t declare a state of emergency when there is nothing out there that is of any urgency or certainly any emergency.

[Translation]

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