Hon. Patti LaBoucane-Benson: Honourable senators, I heard Senator Housakos say earlier that the government should have ended public health measures, as the convoy advocated, to clear the streets of Ottawa.

My question to you, senator, is: Should this government or any government reward people engaging in illegal activity by giving them their desired policy outcomes, notwithstanding the advice of health experts?

Senator Plett: I didn’t hear Senator Housakos say that quite like that.

Senator, what I do believe is that there should have been negotiations. No. Did I believe that it was the right thing for this convoy to come in and have a memorandum of understanding, a small portion of it?

We need to remember, senators, that this convoy took on a life of its own. There were different factions of this convoy by the time it got to Ottawa. There was a group that started it in Western Canada and, as it came across, it was like an octopus; it got tentacles, it got more legs and different convoys started.

And it was not the convoy that started in Western Canada that had that memorandum of understanding. It was a different part of that convoy that threw that in there. Did I agree with that? No. 

I had a call today from an individual in Manitoba who asked me, “How is it possible? Don, what can we do, as citizens, to invoke a motion of non-confidence in the government so that we can defeat the government?”

I said to him, “What you can do, my friend, is you can vote for the Conservative Party of Canada in the next election so that you have the right government so that we can get rid of this one.” I said, “That is when we overthrow governments, come election time.” And that is what I believe.

I didn’t agree with that memorandum of understanding. I thought it was stupid. And nobody believed it would happen. It was ridiculous. It was silly. And it gave a sense of illegitimacy to something that started off as a very legitimate concept.

So I believe in the general concept of elections, and I’ll stand here and say that this organization and that organization hurt our election chances. And then I’m going to spend the next couple of years trying to become stronger and trying to defeat the Liberals come the next election. I’m going to continue to do that. But I believe in a democracy, senator.

I’ve started talking now, and I may not have even touched on your question. And I’m going to do what Senator Gold does and ask you to repeat the question, and maybe I’ll get right at it. I put a little more on the record, anyway.

Senator Plett: Let me say this: I think they should have gotten rid of the vaccine mandates before the trucks ever left Alberta, and then none of this would have happened. If your question is if I believe the government should operate under a threat, my answer is no. But should the Prime Minister have made an effort to contact the organizers, either himself or through an intermediary, as I suggested they had done at the Oka crisis? Surely he could have done that. He should not have called them a fringe group. He should not have incited hundreds of thousands and even millions of people who agreed with the protest the way he did. He should have tried to make peace.

Provinces were getting rid of mandates already. But instead of getting rid of mandates that the provinces were getting rid of, our Prime Minister just dug in his heels. Do I believe he should have done that? No. But that, in my opinion, senator, is what the Prime Minister did. He dug in his heels, and he said, “There is no way I’m going to give you guys anything, and I’ll just make it worse for you.” That also is not correct.

Senator Cotter: I really enjoyed the remarks, Senator Plett. I thought they were thoughtful, deep and meaningful and heartfelt. My question is a technical one, and I think it’s an important one. It’s the dialogue that Senator Tannas and I had earlier about what is the time at which we are making this decision.

I’m a lawyer. Sometimes it’s an advantage; sometimes it’s a curse. I don’t want to pose this as some kind of a legal trap, but I want to describe what I think the meaning and intention of the legislation are and invite you to comment. I won’t ask a follow‑up.

The government issues the declaration. They are required then to table the declaration. They are required to table their justification for it — the report, the information about their consultations, and all of that — in relation to the declaration they issued. That comes to us. One would have thought, in the normal course, that that’s what we’re deciding on — whether the case that they made and presented to us was good enough.

The reason that seems to make sense to me — I think maybe Senator Tannas and I disagree — is when you turn the page then, there’s another option, which is, for a group of us, if we think it’s the right course, to initiate a process to revoke an already existing declaration.

That seems to me then to invite us to focus our attention on a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down to the government issuing the declaration and the case it presented to us for justification, so not so much today but presumably last Tuesday or Wednesday or whenever the day is that we should focus on. I won’t ask a follow-up. I’d really appreciate your view about whether that was what the legislation really intended for us to do.

Senator Plett: Certainly, Senator Cotter. Thank you for that. I thought I had addressed, in part at least, your question in my speech, but let me elaborate.

I would counter with this: Of course, I don’t agree that there was ever reason for the Emergencies Act. But aside from that, let’s assume that there was, and let’s assume I even agree that there was. When that emergency was over, the government, on its own volition, should have withdrawn it. And they could have done that, and we wouldn’t be discussing this right now. That would have been the proper thing. If the government agrees there’s no longer an emergency, they shouldn’t just dig their heels in and say, “We want this passed.” That, to me, again, is absolutely silliness. So they should not have done that.

I guess in a simplistic plumber’s view of this situation, if I could, say somebody goes in and robs a bank, and the authorities even believe there may be some terrorists in there, the call is made to the army, and the army is starting to mobilize. Then if the robbers all come out and give themselves up, and they’re being transported over to jail, we would probably call the army off. We wouldn’t say, “Well, come on in any way, and continue. Go into the bank and run around there and do whatever you do.” No, we would call them off.

Well, that same thing would apply here. If there’s no longer a reason, then I don’t think we should have to go to the letter that you’re suggesting, which, by the way, Senator Cotter — twice now, I’ve heard you talk about it — I hope you would be a signatory on that letter. Maybe there are others formulating a letter, but we have well over 10 people who have suggested it from different groups and caucuses here. I hope we can count on your support for that letter on the very vague chance that the motion here passes. I’m still very hopeful — I like to be positive — and think that we will defeat the motion. But if we don’t, certainly that letter is in the making right now. Yes, should we do that if we lose this?

But I think the government should do the principled, grown-up thing and say, “We no longer need this, so we’re dropping it.”

Hon. Patrick Brazeau: Would the senator take another question, please?

Senator Brazeau: As you know, Senator Plett, I used to be a member of your party. I’ve heard some things that you said here today that incite me to take the floor and ask you two very simple questions.

You mentioned that there was Indigenous support with respect to this illegal occupation. That has been denounced by many Indigenous leaders across the country and by many Indigenous organizations. Let’s face it: We saw individuals pretending to be Indigenous peoples and singing the “Yabba-Dabba-Doo!” song. If that is your view of Indigenous support with respect to this protest, I would ask you to be very careful with respect to describing who was actually there.

Having said that, could you tell me, in recent memory, when the last time was that your party has given even one ounce of support to any Indigenous protest vis-à-vis what we have seen in the last four weeks?

Also, I’ve been hearing from many members of your party, including a candidate who will run as leader, saying that they supported “truckers.” The narrative that you’re trying to portray is that this started off with good intentions, good people, and then here comes the octopus, and it grew into something more.

My question to you is this: Do you have any evidence that you could perhaps share and table in this house with respect to exactly why you’re saying that this was initially supposed to just be a simple, peaceful protest? The reason I’m supporting this motion is because I have not yet seen anything, and we can get to the bottom of these issues. Is that not what you’re seeking?

Senator Plett: The ultimate question was: Should it apply for future generations? Without question, it will, which is exactly what I said in my speech a few times. We cannot put the genie back in the bottle. So whatever vote we give, we will be setting the stage for future generations. We will be setting the bar very low for future generations to bring in the Emergencies Act. If we vote yes to this, the bar will be set very low because we need to work in the present, senator. Senator Cotter asked very much that question, about dealing in the present or with what happened a few weeks ago. I don’t believe it was an emergency a few weeks ago.

However, let me say that I have confidence in our police force. I also have confidence in organizations like CSIS, for example. I have confidence in our RCMP, in our municipal police, in our provincial police, in the anti-terrorist organizations that we have, anti-corruption organizations that we have. Without question, there were some idiots that joined this convoy, and there was possibly even some dangerous people who joined this convoy. There was one smoke bomb that got set off here last weekend, and that was about the extent of it.

Now, I believe in our anti-terrorism and our police departments and that they knew where this convoy was. It wasn’t that people were sneaking into Ottawa. Were there Hells Angels in there? I don’t think officially, but maybe there were. But certainly unofficially, were there people of ill repute in a group of thousands of people like that? I’m sure. There is in every protest, senator. In every protest in Ottawa, there will be a few people that we all wish wouldn’t be there, but they have that right.

I asked Senator Gold this question yesterday. When did this become an illegal protest? His answer was very vague on when it became an illegal protest. Until it became an illegal protest, everybody had the right to be there. We should never infringe on your rights or my rights of being at a demonstration. That is our Canadian right.

So I have confidence that if somebody wants to infiltrate Ottawa, they will do what this gunman did. They will sneak up to somebody and shoot that person and then go running into Centre Block, as he did. They won’t come driving from Alberta to Ottawa in a convoy of big semi-trucks with their name all over the side of the truck and advertising that they’re coming here. If the police had thought there was a dangerous element in there, if the police had thought there were arms somewhere on Wellington Street, they may have allowed me to walk down there and hoped, but they wouldn’t have allowed the Prime Minister to drive through that, for sure.

[Translation]

Senator Dagenais: Senator Plett, ever since we started this debate, we’ve heard colleagues here talk about how the use of this act is exceptional and this is a historic moment.

However, don’t you agree that the government failed to show this chamber the proper respect and transparency by not participating in a Committee of the Whole where we could have taken a closer look at why the use of this act was justified? I’m saying this mainly because the Prime Minister himself didn’t show up in the other place to vote on this act that he wants us to vote for blindly.

[English]

Senator Plett: Absolutely, Senator Dagenais. I think the Prime Minister has shown a lack of respect for both houses for the last number of years, and certainly for this house. Maybe we’re getting off track here, but we have constantly been upset about the lateness with which we get legislation, and I don’t fault our government leader here in the Senate for that. He’s doing his job. But he gets this legislation and then we have ministers in the other house saying, well, we hope the senators will put their shoulder to the wheel and get this done in 24 hours, even though it has taken us half a year to get it over to you.

So the lack of respect again is being amplified here, Senator Dagenais. Since you’re asking the question right now, I want to reiterate your comments yesterday when you talked about that the government had all the tools in their tool box under the Criminal Code to deal with this situation without this act. I appreciated those comments, and certainly would echo those. Thank you for that, Senator Dagenais.

[Translation]

Senator Forest: Senator, based on your experience and knowledge, you said some idiots and some dangerous people infiltrated the convoy.

Here’s what I’d like to know. Given your knowledge, what distinction do you see between an idiot in this convoy and a dangerous person in this convoy?

[English]

Senator Plett: Senator Forest, I’m not sure if that was a set‑up, but I would say an idiot is always a dangerous person. I don’t know that I have to separate those two. As I said earlier, when one person has been seen carrying a flag with a swastika and we make that out as if the group has been infiltrated by Nazis, I find that difficult.

When the Prime Minister and the House of Commons do that, do I support this — this is a person I would call an idiot. Should he have been removed from there immediately? Yes, he should have been. He wasn’t. Why? I don’t know, but I don’t know that there’s a bigger distinction that I can make than that.

[Translation]

Senator Plett: Yes, I think idiots need help and dangerous people need to be locked up. But it’s not my business to do that. It’s the police’s business. If there were dangerous people, the police should have dealt with it. They shouldn’t have waited two or three weeks. They should have dealt with it. They have the tools in their tool box. As Senator Dagenais said yesterday, they have the tools in their tool box. I think Senator Dalphond alluded to that. I know Senator Carignan did.

That’s something for the police to do, not for you and me to do. We pass laws here. We don’t decide who should be locked up, and we certainly don’t declare a state of emergency when there is nothing out there that is of any urgency or certainly any emergency.

[Translation]

Senator Plett: Let me take this opportunity to read this one more time. I know it is in Hansard and on the record, but this is the Prime Minister who tweeted in the early days of the pandemic. He said:

While many of us are working from home, there are others who aren’t able to do that — like the truck drivers who are working day and night to make sure our shelves are stocked. So when you can, please #ThankATrucker for everything they’re doing and help them however you can.

Senator Housakos, in the beginning of the pandemic we had leaders, including the Prime Minister, telling us, “We have your back.”

In my own province, they said that. It wasn’t this Prime Minister, but I’ll use this example anyway. In my province, they said, “We have your back.” Three months later, they had a snitch line developed where you could report your neighbour. That is what this has done. That is the type of leadership we have here. One day they say, “We have your back.” The next day, “Report your neighbour.”

Senator Housakos, do I believe these mandates should have been lifted? Yes. However, officially, I cannot say that is what the Prime Minister should have told truckers that were coming here to protest. I think before they got here would have been the time to do it because, as you say, the provinces were doing that. The problem is the inconsistency of this and how they communicated that “on that date, we will lift this mandate.” I’m not sure how science says that on a specific date things will be better, but somehow they do.

Hon. Denise Batters: First of all, Senator Yussuff, that was a very thoughtful speech. Thank you very much for all of the important points that you raised.

I just saw that Canadian Press is tweeting out a CP news alert:

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is set to revoke use of the Emergencies Act, according to two senior government sources, now that the protest in downtown Ottawa is over.

Apparently is he speaking at 4 p.m. ET.

So given this debate that we’ve been engaged in for so many hours in the Senate, with many thoughtful comments from both sides, what do you think about that, Senator Yussuff?

Senator Yussuff: Thank you for your question, Senator Batters.

We had an opportunity to hear from ministers earlier this week before the debate started. The ministers assured us that they were taking advice on the hour, every day, by talking to law enforcement officers with regard to the invocation of the act. Based on that advice, I think at the appropriate time, if they had information that would allow them to do what this newswire is supposedly saying, I don’t disagree.

I don’t take the government at face value. I take information in the context that they are consulting with law enforcement with regard to the invocation of the act and the continuation of the use of the act. Should the Prime Minister hold a news conference to say he’s going to revoke the act, that it’s no longer needed, that is his decision, but it’s based on the advice he has been provided by law enforcement officers that they trust to give them the right advice.

Senator Batters: Thank you for that response. Would you agree with me that, given this particular analysis of the situation now, it seems like the proper vote for this chamber to undertake would be to vote no?

Senator Plett: I’m not sure whether there was a question in there, Senator Carignan, but I do agree with you. Certainly, as I said to Senator Forest, we have had undesirables in our country forever.

I have the highest regard and praise for — and confidence in — our Armed Forces and our police services. I have the highest confidence that if there were Hells Angels or Mafia infiltrating the type of convoy that was in Ottawa, they would deal with it. I have the highest confidence that the police would not allow you and me to walk down the centre of Wellington Street and go and look out of our windows right up here in the Senate building and across the street if there was a danger of bombs being there. They certainly wouldn’t allow the Prime Minister to do that.

If we have confidence in our police and our law enforcement, then we don’t have to declare a state of emergency simply because we do not like the type of protests that are going on. There are many protests that could have gone on there that would have been far worse but that would have been closer to the Prime Minister’s agenda, and we would not be discussing this issue here today.

Senator Housakos: I want to drill down a little bit more on the point that Senator LaBoucane-Benson made in regard to mandates.

Over the last few weeks right across this country, we’ve seen provinces that, of course, were at the front line in dealing with COVID. With the advice of science and their health officers, the provinces have come to the realization they should lift mandates. We’re lifting the requirement for vaccine passports, for example, on March 14 in Quebec and on March 1 in Ontario. They’ve already been lifted in Western Canada.

At a time when the science is telling us mandates aren’t necessary and provincial governments across the country are lifting all kinds of mandates, why does Prime Minister Trudeau think it wise to double down and maintain these mandates targeting a specific industry when all he had to do — and I’ve been saying this now for the last few days — is eliminate those mandates, and we wouldn’t have these protests and disruptions in Ottawa? Why is he going against the alignment of science and his provincial counterparts?

My second question for you, Senator Plett, is about how at the beginning of the COVID crisis, truckers in this country were hailed by this government and by all of us as heroes. They were our essential workers that kept us fed, that transported food across the country. The ability to get things from Amazon, Costco and Walmart is because of these people. At which point during the crisis, Senator Plett, did these heroes — along with our health care providers — become these deplorable, undesirable extremists? At what point? Was it at the point when they started disagreeing with public policy and with the Trudeau government? Was that the point?