Senator Plett: Let me say this: I think they should have gotten rid of the vaccine mandates before the trucks ever left Alberta, and then none of this would have happened. If your question is if I believe the government should operate under a threat, my answer is no. But should the Prime Minister have made an effort to contact the organizers, either himself or through an intermediary, as I suggested they had done at the Oka crisis? Surely he could have done that. He should not have called them a fringe group. He should not have incited hundreds of thousands and even millions of people who agreed with the protest the way he did. He should have tried to make peace.

Provinces were getting rid of mandates already. But instead of getting rid of mandates that the provinces were getting rid of, our Prime Minister just dug in his heels. Do I believe he should have done that? No. But that, in my opinion, senator, is what the Prime Minister did. He dug in his heels, and he said, “There is no way I’m going to give you guys anything, and I’ll just make it worse for you.” That also is not correct.

Senator Cotter: I really enjoyed the remarks, Senator Plett. I thought they were thoughtful, deep and meaningful and heartfelt. My question is a technical one, and I think it’s an important one. It’s the dialogue that Senator Tannas and I had earlier about what is the time at which we are making this decision.

I’m a lawyer. Sometimes it’s an advantage; sometimes it’s a curse. I don’t want to pose this as some kind of a legal trap, but I want to describe what I think the meaning and intention of the legislation are and invite you to comment. I won’t ask a follow‑up.

The government issues the declaration. They are required then to table the declaration. They are required to table their justification for it — the report, the information about their consultations, and all of that — in relation to the declaration they issued. That comes to us. One would have thought, in the normal course, that that’s what we’re deciding on — whether the case that they made and presented to us was good enough.

The reason that seems to make sense to me — I think maybe Senator Tannas and I disagree — is when you turn the page then, there’s another option, which is, for a group of us, if we think it’s the right course, to initiate a process to revoke an already existing declaration.

That seems to me then to invite us to focus our attention on a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down to the government issuing the declaration and the case it presented to us for justification, so not so much today but presumably last Tuesday or Wednesday or whenever the day is that we should focus on. I won’t ask a follow-up. I’d really appreciate your view about whether that was what the legislation really intended for us to do.

Senator Plett: Certainly, Senator Cotter. Thank you for that. I thought I had addressed, in part at least, your question in my speech, but let me elaborate.

I would counter with this: Of course, I don’t agree that there was ever reason for the Emergencies Act. But aside from that, let’s assume that there was, and let’s assume I even agree that there was. When that emergency was over, the government, on its own volition, should have withdrawn it. And they could have done that, and we wouldn’t be discussing this right now. That would have been the proper thing. If the government agrees there’s no longer an emergency, they shouldn’t just dig their heels in and say, “We want this passed.” That, to me, again, is absolutely silliness. So they should not have done that.

I guess in a simplistic plumber’s view of this situation, if I could, say somebody goes in and robs a bank, and the authorities even believe there may be some terrorists in there, the call is made to the army, and the army is starting to mobilize. Then if the robbers all come out and give themselves up, and they’re being transported over to jail, we would probably call the army off. We wouldn’t say, “Well, come on in any way, and continue. Go into the bank and run around there and do whatever you do.” No, we would call them off.

Well, that same thing would apply here. If there’s no longer a reason, then I don’t think we should have to go to the letter that you’re suggesting, which, by the way, Senator Cotter — twice now, I’ve heard you talk about it — I hope you would be a signatory on that letter. Maybe there are others formulating a letter, but we have well over 10 people who have suggested it from different groups and caucuses here. I hope we can count on your support for that letter on the very vague chance that the motion here passes. I’m still very hopeful — I like to be positive — and think that we will defeat the motion. But if we don’t, certainly that letter is in the making right now. Yes, should we do that if we lose this?

But I think the government should do the principled, grown-up thing and say, “We no longer need this, so we’re dropping it.”

Hon. Patrick Brazeau: Would the senator take another question, please?

Senator Brazeau: As you know, Senator Plett, I used to be a member of your party. I’ve heard some things that you said here today that incite me to take the floor and ask you two very simple questions.

You mentioned that there was Indigenous support with respect to this illegal occupation. That has been denounced by many Indigenous leaders across the country and by many Indigenous organizations. Let’s face it: We saw individuals pretending to be Indigenous peoples and singing the “Yabba-Dabba-Doo!” song. If that is your view of Indigenous support with respect to this protest, I would ask you to be very careful with respect to describing who was actually there.

Having said that, could you tell me, in recent memory, when the last time was that your party has given even one ounce of support to any Indigenous protest vis-à-vis what we have seen in the last four weeks?

Also, I’ve been hearing from many members of your party, including a candidate who will run as leader, saying that they supported “truckers.” The narrative that you’re trying to portray is that this started off with good intentions, good people, and then here comes the octopus, and it grew into something more.

My question to you is this: Do you have any evidence that you could perhaps share and table in this house with respect to exactly why you’re saying that this was initially supposed to just be a simple, peaceful protest? The reason I’m supporting this motion is because I have not yet seen anything, and we can get to the bottom of these issues. Is that not what you’re seeking?

Senator Audette: I noticed that I’m free to ask my question in French because of the interpreters. I thank them for their incredible work.

You know this because I told you in private, and I may have said so before in previous conversations, but I am new here. It will take me years to get comfortable in these very important moccasins. As a mother, grandmother, citizen and senator, I have some concerns.

What can you say to reassure me, Senator Plett, about the small but very powerful groups I’m seeing in Quebec and in other regions? We may not necessarily see them ourselves, but we understand that they exist, we see or we read things. There is an incredibly powerful economic force behind the recent movements.

Ian Lafrenière, the Minister Responsible for Indigenous Affairs, for whom I have a great deal of respect, told the media that in Quebec, even members of the Hells Angels managed to infiltrate the convoy. Naturally, that makes me feel nervous and scared, because that is certainly not the type of protest we should be encouraging, in my opinion.

I would like you to reassure me. If this motion concerning the Emergencies Act is not adopted, how are we going to fight against this type of protest?

What’s more, you and I both know that other governments will come into power in Canada. Let’s say that a government led by someone other than the Liberals suddenly comes into power. If that government takes a very hard line against the emergency measures, I hope that we will collectively remember not to enact this legislation again.

Do you agree with me that what we are discussing today should also apply to future political generations?

[English]

Senator Plett: The ultimate question was: Should it apply for future generations? Without question, it will, which is exactly what I said in my speech a few times. We cannot put the genie back in the bottle. So whatever vote we give, we will be setting the stage for future generations. We will be setting the bar very low for future generations to bring in the Emergencies Act. If we vote yes to this, the bar will be set very low because we need to work in the present, senator. Senator Cotter asked very much that question, about dealing in the present or with what happened a few weeks ago. I don’t believe it was an emergency a few weeks ago.

However, let me say that I have confidence in our police force. I also have confidence in organizations like CSIS, for example. I have confidence in our RCMP, in our municipal police, in our provincial police, in the anti-terrorist organizations that we have, anti-corruption organizations that we have. Without question, there were some idiots that joined this convoy, and there was possibly even some dangerous people who joined this convoy. There was one smoke bomb that got set off here last weekend, and that was about the extent of it.

Now, I believe in our anti-terrorism and our police departments and that they knew where this convoy was. It wasn’t that people were sneaking into Ottawa. Were there Hells Angels in there? I don’t think officially, but maybe there were. But certainly unofficially, were there people of ill repute in a group of thousands of people like that? I’m sure. There is in every protest, senator. In every protest in Ottawa, there will be a few people that we all wish wouldn’t be there, but they have that right.

I asked Senator Gold this question yesterday. When did this become an illegal protest? His answer was very vague on when it became an illegal protest. Until it became an illegal protest, everybody had the right to be there. We should never infringe on your rights or my rights of being at a demonstration. That is our Canadian right.

So I have confidence that if somebody wants to infiltrate Ottawa, they will do what this gunman did. They will sneak up to somebody and shoot that person and then go running into Centre Block, as he did. They won’t come driving from Alberta to Ottawa in a convoy of big semi-trucks with their name all over the side of the truck and advertising that they’re coming here. If the police had thought there was a dangerous element in there, if the police had thought there were arms somewhere on Wellington Street, they may have allowed me to walk down there and hoped, but they wouldn’t have allowed the Prime Minister to drive through that, for sure.

[Translation]

Senator Plett: Absolutely, Senator Dagenais. I think the Prime Minister has shown a lack of respect for both houses for the last number of years, and certainly for this house. Maybe we’re getting off track here, but we have constantly been upset about the lateness with which we get legislation, and I don’t fault our government leader here in the Senate for that. He’s doing his job. But he gets this legislation and then we have ministers in the other house saying, well, we hope the senators will put their shoulder to the wheel and get this done in 24 hours, even though it has taken us half a year to get it over to you.

So the lack of respect again is being amplified here, Senator Dagenais. Since you’re asking the question right now, I want to reiterate your comments yesterday when you talked about that the government had all the tools in their tool box under the Criminal Code to deal with this situation without this act. I appreciated those comments, and certainly would echo those. Thank you for that, Senator Dagenais.

[Translation]

Senator Forest: Senator, based on your experience and knowledge, you said some idiots and some dangerous people infiltrated the convoy.

Here’s what I’d like to know. Given your knowledge, what distinction do you see between an idiot in this convoy and a dangerous person in this convoy?

[English]

Senator Plett: Senator Forest, I’m not sure if that was a set‑up, but I would say an idiot is always a dangerous person. I don’t know that I have to separate those two. As I said earlier, when one person has been seen carrying a flag with a swastika and we make that out as if the group has been infiltrated by Nazis, I find that difficult.

When the Prime Minister and the House of Commons do that, do I support this — this is a person I would call an idiot. Should he have been removed from there immediately? Yes, he should have been. He wasn’t. Why? I don’t know, but I don’t know that there’s a bigger distinction that I can make than that.

[Translation]

Senator Plett: Yes, I think idiots need help and dangerous people need to be locked up. But it’s not my business to do that. It’s the police’s business. If there were dangerous people, the police should have dealt with it. They shouldn’t have waited two or three weeks. They should have dealt with it. They have the tools in their tool box. As Senator Dagenais said yesterday, they have the tools in their tool box. I think Senator Dalphond alluded to that. I know Senator Carignan did.

That’s something for the police to do, not for you and me to do. We pass laws here. We don’t decide who should be locked up, and we certainly don’t declare a state of emergency when there is nothing out there that is of any urgency or certainly any emergency.

[Translation]

Senator Plett: Let me take this opportunity to read this one more time. I know it is in Hansard and on the record, but this is the Prime Minister who tweeted in the early days of the pandemic. He said:

While many of us are working from home, there are others who aren’t able to do that — like the truck drivers who are working day and night to make sure our shelves are stocked. So when you can, please #ThankATrucker for everything they’re doing and help them however you can.

Senator Housakos, in the beginning of the pandemic we had leaders, including the Prime Minister, telling us, “We have your back.”

In my own province, they said that. It wasn’t this Prime Minister, but I’ll use this example anyway. In my province, they said, “We have your back.” Three months later, they had a snitch line developed where you could report your neighbour. That is what this has done. That is the type of leadership we have here. One day they say, “We have your back.” The next day, “Report your neighbour.”

Senator Housakos, do I believe these mandates should have been lifted? Yes. However, officially, I cannot say that is what the Prime Minister should have told truckers that were coming here to protest. I think before they got here would have been the time to do it because, as you say, the provinces were doing that. The problem is the inconsistency of this and how they communicated that “on that date, we will lift this mandate.” I’m not sure how science says that on a specific date things will be better, but somehow they do.

Hon. Denise Batters: First of all, Senator Yussuff, that was a very thoughtful speech. Thank you very much for all of the important points that you raised.

I just saw that Canadian Press is tweeting out a CP news alert:

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is set to revoke use of the Emergencies Act, according to two senior government sources, now that the protest in downtown Ottawa is over.

Apparently is he speaking at 4 p.m. ET.

So given this debate that we’ve been engaged in for so many hours in the Senate, with many thoughtful comments from both sides, what do you think about that, Senator Yussuff?

Senator Yussuff: Thank you for your question, Senator Batters.

We had an opportunity to hear from ministers earlier this week before the debate started. The ministers assured us that they were taking advice on the hour, every day, by talking to law enforcement officers with regard to the invocation of the act. Based on that advice, I think at the appropriate time, if they had information that would allow them to do what this newswire is supposedly saying, I don’t disagree.

I don’t take the government at face value. I take information in the context that they are consulting with law enforcement with regard to the invocation of the act and the continuation of the use of the act. Should the Prime Minister hold a news conference to say he’s going to revoke the act, that it’s no longer needed, that is his decision, but it’s based on the advice he has been provided by law enforcement officers that they trust to give them the right advice.

Senator Batters: Thank you for that response. Would you agree with me that, given this particular analysis of the situation now, it seems like the proper vote for this chamber to undertake would be to vote no?

Senator Plett: I’m not sure whether there was a question in there, Senator Carignan, but I do agree with you. Certainly, as I said to Senator Forest, we have had undesirables in our country forever.

I have the highest regard and praise for — and confidence in — our Armed Forces and our police services. I have the highest confidence that if there were Hells Angels or Mafia infiltrating the type of convoy that was in Ottawa, they would deal with it. I have the highest confidence that the police would not allow you and me to walk down the centre of Wellington Street and go and look out of our windows right up here in the Senate building and across the street if there was a danger of bombs being there. They certainly wouldn’t allow the Prime Minister to do that.

If we have confidence in our police and our law enforcement, then we don’t have to declare a state of emergency simply because we do not like the type of protests that are going on. There are many protests that could have gone on there that would have been far worse but that would have been closer to the Prime Minister’s agenda, and we would not be discussing this issue here today.

Senator Housakos: I want to drill down a little bit more on the point that Senator LaBoucane-Benson made in regard to mandates.

Over the last few weeks right across this country, we’ve seen provinces that, of course, were at the front line in dealing with COVID. With the advice of science and their health officers, the provinces have come to the realization they should lift mandates. We’re lifting the requirement for vaccine passports, for example, on March 14 in Quebec and on March 1 in Ontario. They’ve already been lifted in Western Canada.

At a time when the science is telling us mandates aren’t necessary and provincial governments across the country are lifting all kinds of mandates, why does Prime Minister Trudeau think it wise to double down and maintain these mandates targeting a specific industry when all he had to do — and I’ve been saying this now for the last few days — is eliminate those mandates, and we wouldn’t have these protests and disruptions in Ottawa? Why is he going against the alignment of science and his provincial counterparts?

My second question for you, Senator Plett, is about how at the beginning of the COVID crisis, truckers in this country were hailed by this government and by all of us as heroes. They were our essential workers that kept us fed, that transported food across the country. The ability to get things from Amazon, Costco and Walmart is because of these people. At which point during the crisis, Senator Plett, did these heroes — along with our health care providers — become these deplorable, undesirable extremists? At what point? Was it at the point when they started disagreeing with public policy and with the Trudeau government? Was that the point?

Hon. Hassan Yussuff: Thank you, honourable senators. I do have to say, in getting up here to participate in this debate, I want to thank all of my colleagues who have spoken already for the remarks they have made. I think it has informed me, of course, with regard to the remarks I’m about to make, but I’m equally troubled by a couple of things. I believe that the challenge we and our nation face are not unique. Every country, I think, faces some challenges at different times. Given our role, how do we bring ourselves together to show our country remains strong and committed to the principle of democracy and citizens’ rights?

I also want to acknowledge that today is Pink Shirt Day. If you notice, I’m wearing a pink tie. I did have a pink shirt but it’s at the cleaners, so I couldn’t get it in time to be here this morning. I want to say to all those young people in their schools across this country who are taking the time to observe anti-bullying day that I salute them for their courage and the work they’re doing. Their work will make our country a better place for them after they grow up and are adults.

I also want to start out by saying to colleagues that I believe the government has met the test for the invocation of the Emergencies Act. I don’t say that lightly, because I recognize that in our country the right to protest is a fundamental one. As a matter of fact, I would argue that I may be a student of protests. My entire life has been on barricades before parliaments, provincial legislatures and municipal city halls protesting one thing or another on behalf of working people.

I’ve come here to Ottawa in the dead of winter, mad and crazy for doing it. We were protesting high interest rates, because we believed it was having a detrimental impact on the lives of working people. When our protest was over, we went home and continued our efforts to try to get our government to take a different approach in what they were doing with the high interest-rate policy that was ruining our economy. It didn’t stop. But we respect the rights afforded in our democracy. Those were the people we elected to do what they were doing.

My friend Peter — Senator Boehm — spoke yesterday about his role as a deputy minister and sherpa in organizing the Organization of American States, or OAS, in Windsor. I was on the opposite side, protesting what my friend Peter was doing. There were a lot of people, but we recognized that Latin Americans were in our country to talk about the role of the OAS and its responsibilities. Some of us felt we had something to say, and we were going to say it.

When Peter was organizing, of course, the Summit of the Americas in Quebec City, I was there prominently with thousands of workers and other activists protesting, of course, the Summit of the Americas, because we felt it was our right.

When the protest was over, like others, I went home. My friend Peter was organizing the G7 in Canada very recently. I wasn’t on the other side of a protest. Actually, I met Peter across the canal here in the arts centre, sitting down with him. The Prime Minister was there at some point. The Minister of Labour was there, along with other ministers who had responsibility for the G7, to talk about the issues that were of concern to working people in G7 countries around the world.

I’ve known Peter for two decades. I consider him my friend. But my right to protest in my country is a fundamental right. When the protest is over, you go home.

I recognize that some of our citizens who came to Ottawa to protest have a right to do so, and I salute them for doing that. But I also know it was not a protest anymore. It was an occupation. There is a difference. The citizens of this great city of ours welcomed them. But that welcome was worn out long before they left. And they abused their welcome.

I learned a long time ago that when you are invited into a person’s home, you don’t pee on the couch and crap on the floor. It’s a crude analysis, but it’s one that needs to be said. Because I think our fellow citizens who were in Ottawa crossed the boundary and the rule of law. We have to respect it.

Many times I have complained about government actions against workers who are on strike, and they legislate them back to work. We didn’t like the decision of the government. We accepted it and went back to work. We went to the courts.

Today, in my land, in this great country of ours, the right to strike is a fundamental right protected by the Constitution. Yet, governments still violate that law. We will keep going to the courts and some day we’ll get a decision — a huge penalty for governments for doing this. But, in the meantime, we still have to respect the law.

I know this is not about the right of fellow citizens to come and protest. What we saw happen the last number of weeks across our country should trouble all of us.

How did we get here? At the beginning of this pandemic, we weren’t sure where we were going to end up. I was doing a different job, leading an organization of 3.5 million people. One night, we were told the country was going to be shut down indefinitely. Did we resist it? Did we take to the streets because our jobs were gone? We didn’t know where our income was going to come from, how businesses were going to continue, whether or not we would be able to provide for our families. We accepted that it was for greater interests and the health of our citizens.

I worked with our government, the Chamber of Commerce and many others to talk with our government about the programs we needed. We didn’t have vaccines but we had to wear a mask. We had to learn how to wash our hands properly and stay away from one another so we weren’t spreading the virus. We did all of that in the interests of protecting one another and our families and our friends. And at the same time we recognized that we had to ensure other Canadians understood the seriousness of this virus. Many throughout our country, of course, participated in the effort to ensure the safety of our country.

We’re much further down the road after two years. Are we tired? I’m tired. Why am I tired? Because you’re not able to see your friends the way you used to. Just this Christmas, I couldn’t have anybody home for the holidays. Is that frustrating? Absolutely. But that is what our officials asked us to do.

We were not able to go on a vacation in over three years. Am I frustrated? Absolutely. But does that give me the right to behave in a way that questions my commitment to the greater good of our nation? I don’t think so.

We recognize that we’re doing this for the greater good of our country. I respect those who don’t want to receive vaccines or don’t want to wear a mask, but you don’t have the right to jeopardize my health, because I’m doing everything to make sure I protect it.

But I respect your right if you chose not to do so. Yes, I recognize that those who came here said they wanted all vaccine mandates gone. Who elected you to make that decision? But I respect your right to say it.

I don’t think anybody can show up in Ottawa as a group of people and say we want our elected government to disappear and a group of us are going to have the Governor General and Senate decide. They don’t have the right to say that, nor do they have a right to tell me that was their objective.

Then when the citizens, the mayor and others, asked them to leave the city, they basically told them to go to hell; they were going to stay here anyway.

Well, I don’t know. If you’re invited into somebody’s home and they ask you to leave, you do what is expected of you: you leave. Because that is the decent thing to do.

That is not questioning your right to protest. Question your right to remain in a place where nobody wants you to be, because they invited you and welcomed you.

It is truly frustrating to listen to the debate, because I don’t think all of this is to do with our Prime Minister. Many of our premiers across this great land of ours brought in many mandates and requirements of our citizens in their jurisdictions. Some of them are slowly, of course, rolling back those restrictions. And I respect their right to do so, but subject to the evidence and the advice they are getting from, of course, the scientists and doctors in their communities.

I know that in time much will change in our country around vaccine mandates but, in the meantime, we still have to work within the structures that we have in our country and respect the rule of law.

Much has been said about the invocation of the Emergencies Act. The Emergencies Act is not the War Measures Act. It is a different piece of legislation. It was crafted with a great deal of thought, because it was a reflection of what happened during the crisis in Quebec, the Second World War and the First World War.

I want to tell you a story. My mother is Japanese Canadian. She was born Canadian. She and her family were picked up, put on a train and sent to a camp. They remained there throughout the war. Subsequently, she was shipped to Ontario.

Five decades later, she went back to British Columbia, where she was born, to see the family farm. It was long gone. Is she an angry woman? No. Does she need to accept what happened to her and her family? No.

Former prime minister Brian Mulroney apologized for what we did as a country. They offered compensation, but not a single thing that we do can restore her dignity and the rights violated by our government at that time.

The Emergencies Act took care to ensure that if our government is going to use a piece of legislation, it must have checks and balances. And it does; it provides for oversight. A group of parliamentarians can get together and say that our government needs to remove this legislation. In the other house, they can do the same thing.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms didn’t exist during the Second World War or the Quebec crisis. It exists today. They took the care to say that our government can override the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The courts have a role. Should the government overstep their responsibility, our judges and lawyers in this country will ensure that the government will be held to account for any violation of the fundamental rights of Canadians.

Am I satisfied that we had to use the Emergencies Act? No. There have been many failures in the crisis that is before us. We can all point fingers, but in due time it will be examined properly. I hope we learn from this.

I watched thousands of workers in this city who couldn’t go to work. They lost their income. Businesses suffered. Is that the right of protesters? No. I don’t believe it was their right to harm the citizens of this city. I have many colleagues, and there are thousands who work in the auto industry. The plants shut down. They had to go home. They couldn’t operate because some decided to block the bridge to bring attention to the government action on mandates. Is that right? None of us will agree that it is right. Those workers suffered a loss of income. It raises a question of confidence about our ability to keep our borders open and to continue trade.

The reality is, there’s a difference between a protest and an occupation — an illegal action to block a bridge and to do what folks have done here in this city.

As much as I want to be angry about the racism, the Confederate flag and the swastika, I spent my life as a person of colour, a man with the name Hassan Yussuff of Muslim background, dealing with a lot of crap in our country. I don’t give up on our citizens and their behaviour. I hope in time they change and become better people.

I have some confidence that most of our citizens who were in Ottawa occupying the city are kind, decent people. I would like to believe that. If they’re not, I hope they will become better citizens. I won’t give up on them, because I know it’s the wrong thing. But I have to say that I can criticize them and judge their behaviour. I don’t agree with what they did; it is wrong. It is wrong for the reasons that we all know. There’s a sense of decency in how we conduct ourselves.

In conclusion, colleagues, I recognize the decision before us is an important one. This is the first time the act has been invoked. We should have as much scrutiny as we can. At the end of the day, I hope our government, before the expiry of the 30 days, with the advice that they are given, will make the right decision. For the future of this great country of ours and our unity, we must do the right thing.

I will be voting in support of the motion. Thank you.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Would Senator Plett take a question?