The Hon. the Speaker: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Senator Dalphond: Thank you for those very important comments, senator. You raised a fundamental question about the role of the Senate.

I would like to hear your thoughts on two subjects.

First of all, isn’t there a distinction to be made between carefully reviewing legislation, even legislation unanimously passed by the House of Commons, and respecting the House of Commons when it responds to our proposed amendments? Should the fact that a bill passed unanimously be a determining factor at the outset, when we are considering it? I’m not sure. When the other place sends back its responses to our proposals, showing deference to the elected chamber is important.

My second point is this: Shouldn’t we direct our comments not only to the government, but also sometimes to the opposition in the Senate who, in the case of the conversion therapy bill, for example, ensured that the bill passed without this chamber having a real debate at second or third reading, or even a pre‑study of the bill?

(1140)

That bill was passed in just one afternoon, without any real debate or analysis. We failed to fulfill our constitutional duty, but I don’t think we could blame the government that time.

[English]

The Hon. the Speaker: I see two senators rising. Do we have agreement on a bell? The vote will take place at two o’clock. Call in the senators.

(1400)

Motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator White negatived on the following division:

Senator Lankin: Thank you, Senator Tannas. I want to say up front that I wish to associate myself with everything you said. I agree with you completely. I would like to say every single senator probably agrees with you, though I don’t know that to be the case, but I would say with certainty the majority would agree with you. Others have spoken to this in other bills and other situations at other times, and it continues.

There is a time for the Senate to engage on this, and I think now it is the time as we look to enter a new sitting in the new year. I would like to ask you if you would be willing to work with other senators, representative of each of the groups, to develop a proposal or a plan for engaging this Senate in a principle statement about what we expect in our relationship with the House of Commons in exchange of information, and to engage in developing a strategy for talking to the federal government; moving, passing a motion; essentially how we move the ball from A to B to get to a place where we are able to do the valuable work. Because one of the things you didn’t say, but I know that you believe, is that unless we are able to do that, Canadians aren’t well served. There isn’t value for the money they are paying for the operation of the Senate, and bills with mistakes, missed opportunities and a profound impact — good and bad — on Canadians will go through this place without the attentive review they need. Thank you for the opportunity to enlist your leadership on this issue.

The Hon. the Speaker: The question can only go to Senator Tannas.

Senator Gold: Of course. It would be my pleasure to do so.

The Hon. the Speaker: Is leave granted, honourable senators?

Hon. Renée Dupuis: I will speak, Mr. Speaker.

The amendment put forward by Senator White poses the same problem that we see with almost every amendment that is brought forward when we do not have the chance to examine the impact. People complain about the bill coming to us at the last minute and not having time to study it properly. This amendment seeks to respond in part to the concern raised by many members of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs to the effect that some provisions of the Criminal Code are not being applied to incidents of violence against health care workers or people who are trying to access health care facilities.

I think the problem created by the non-enforcement or poor or inadequate enforcement of Criminal Code provisions to date in the context of COVID-19 is a different problem that cannot be solved. If Senator White’s amendment is adopted, there is no guarantee it will be enforced. I think this is a useless argument. The amendment introduces an element that makes a more restrictive interpretation by the courts more likely and, even if it were adopted, it would not address the lack of enforcement of the legislation as it now stands or of the amended version if this bill passes.

[English]

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, before proceeding, I will call upon the leaders to make a few short remarks before we take our winter break.

Senator Kutcher: Thank you, Senator Campbell, for that intervention. Health care workers have been overwhelmed and overburdened during this pandemic, as well as subject to harassment in their professional and personal locations. They are often called heroes, but that is cold comfort. I think they look for action.

I want to ask if you could put yourself in the place of a health care worker doing the best you can, burning out and slogging through this pandemic. Would you feel better and more thankful if the government said that people couldn’t picket your home, threaten your kids at home and come to your house and yell and scream at you?

Hon. Scott Tannas: Thank you, Your Honour. I have listened to the questions and the discussion. Everything that I wanted to say has been said, so in the interests of time, I will pass. Thank you.

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator White, there are a couple of other senators who wish to ask questions. Your time is running out. Would you take a couple of more questions?

Senator Simons: This comes to the crux of how I’m going to vote on this amendment. I come from Alberta, where health workers have absolutely been intimidated in their homes, where they have received death threats, and where there have been disturbing and terrifying attacks, not just on health care workers but on our social fabric. At the same time, many of my legal and policing colleagues are telling me that we don’t need this change at all.

If it’s just a question of belts and braces, what is the impetus that we would need to vote for this amendment if you don’t think it is going to do anything?

Senator Lankin: Honourable senators, I will be brief. I agree with the proposition just put forward by Senator Dalphond. I think that the rationale that Senator White put forward to support this amendment was that, in its description, it applies to the second provision in the Criminal Code amendments in this bill — that being the one not barring access to legal health services. In fact, the act of intimidation, as Senator Dalphond just pointed out, is another provision or clause within the bill. That is the one that currently gives protection to people if it is at their home. If they happen to be providing medical health services out of a home office, then the other provision applies as well.

Not only is it perhaps redundant to what protections or provisions are already in the Criminal Code, it doesn’t apply to the same provision that Senator White describes in the fact situation. I think it would suffer from the same complaint and concern that we have about rushing through things in terms of the process that we undertake.

Much of this discussion today has been letting off a little bit of steam around our frustrations with the government’s lack of respect for the necessary process for the job to be done well. I think that’s all the Senate is asking. Everybody wants to get these benefits to Canadians as soon as possible, and everyone recognizes the urgency. Similar arguments could be made in other circumstances that senators have pointed out where this has happened before.

However, I think it would be wrong, from what many people have argued already, to hold this bill up as the particular case example where we’re going to draw the line in the sand. I look forward to participating with Senator Tannas and others in the chamber to find a strategic and tactical way forward in the future in discussing this matter with the government, but I will vote against the amendment that has been put forward, although I understand the point that is being made. Thank you very much.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, before we adjourn and return to our families and friends for the winter break, I would like to take a moment to extend my sincerest thanks to all senators, members of our staff, employees of the Senate Administration and, of course, our pages who continue to faithfully fulfill their duties here in the chamber, even as they write their final exams.

I would especially like to thank the Senate leaders of the various groups and caucuses for their understanding and cooperation in our efforts to keep the health and safety of our colleagues and employees uppermost in our deliberations, especially during this very dangerous time of the Omicron variant outbreak.

[Translation]

All the members of our Senate family are working together to support senators and help them do their jobs on behalf of their constituents. I am very proud of the challenges we have overcome this year and the progress we have made together.

[English]

I know I speak for all senators as I extend a heartfelt thank you to all of those who support us day in and day out. This includes, of course, all our Senate staff, our colleagues in the Library of Parliament, the Parliamentary Protective Service, International and Interparliamentary Affairs, Food Services and the Translation Bureau. All of them play a pivotal role in the daily functioning of our institution.

[Translation]

We all appreciate your dedication, your expertise and your countless contributions to our chamber. Thank you for everything you do for us.

[English]

May your holidays be filled with the warmth and spirit of the season, and I hope each of you enjoy some precious time safely spent with family and friends. I look forward to seeing you all with a renewed sense of resolve in 2022.

As you try to spend some quality time with family and friends, please have a family member or a friend hide your cellphone. Stay safe, everybody.

[Translation]

Hon. Vernon White: Therefore, honourable senators, in amendment, I move:

That Bill C-3 be not now read a third time, but that it be amended in clause 2, on page 1, by replacing line 11 with the following:

Hon. Denise Batters: Senator Tannas, I appreciated how you raised some of the different parts of normal debate which have not been happening on some of these measures. I would put to you another one that I have been noticing frequently. The government leader in the Senate generally has not been giving speeches on these major government bills to allow senators the substantial opportunity we have to be able to ask the government leader questions, to hear, first, a lengthy perspective from the government’s point of view as to why the bill is important and then to give senators the opportunity for a much lengthier and more detailed period of time from someone who is in the Privy Council to answer questions. Would you agree that is also an important component, which, for too many government bills, has not been happening?

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you, colleague. As Government Representative, first of all, please let me repeat what I said and have tried to make clear on two occasions. The Government of Canada and the Prime Minister have said that he is not eliminating the possibility of intervening at the appropriate time, not that he has decided to intervene. With regard to the appropriate time, colleague, I don’t have the answer. However, the answer will be a function in part of how legal proceedings unfold in Quebec. They are currently before a lower court. Thereafter there would be other stages and legal proceedings, and at each stage the Government of Canada will consider its options and respond appropriately.