Senator Batters: Senator Simons, in your speech, you primarily referred to absolute discharges. Would you concede that conditional discharges are also included in this same framework and so this would eliminate conditional discharges as well? The types of conditional discharges — as I’m sure you know well from the kinds of cases you reported on — can involve weapons and firearms prohibitions, probation and non‑contact orders for those types of interpersonal violence, which is very common and that can be, of course, more than one.

As well, a discharge involves a finding of guilt, and then a discharge is the type of sanction that the judge chooses for it. That is not the least bad of anything. They have been found guilty of the criminal offence, and this is simply the sanction that has been chosen.

Senator Simons: That is entirely correct, senator.

[English]

We have seen all over the country, most recently with the Mass Casualty Commission report, that all too often cases of domestic violence spill out into the larger community, whether that’s an assault on police officers or other first responders or assault on the community at large.

When I was a journalist, I long argued that family violence was a crime not just against the members of the family but also against the entire community. Indeed, I’m proud of the fact that, as a journalist, I fought hard to report on cases — murder-suicide cases — where oftentimes the names of both the offender and the victim were kept quiet by police because I argued that these were assaults against the entire community.

I absolutely support your effort, sir, to fight domestic violence. I stand in awe of some of the things you have fought for and accomplished as a senator.

I have worked for years as a journalist on these issues. But I think in the words of our late colleague Elaine McCoy of blessed memory, we are shooting at the wrong duck. If we want to keep families safe, there are far better ways to do it than to impose on people whose only brush with the criminal law is to have received an absolute discharge to treat them in the same way as the worst of perpetrators.

Let’s focus our energies on dealing with the people who are the greatest threat and not criminalize mostly Indigenous women who end up charged in sort of the tidal pool that comes in the wake of these incidents.

Senator Boisvenu: Yes, exactly. We’re not dealing with pardons. I may have used that word, but we’re talking about a discharge. This has nothing to do with pardons.

Senator Batters: I have a brief follow-up because at one point, Senator Boisvenu, your answer was translated as applying to people who had a pardon. It is not a pardon that we’re dealing with here, right? It is a discharge where someone has been found guilty but received a discharge from the judge as their sanction.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: Senator Simons, you’ve said on a couple of occasions that you object if it’s the only brush with the law. There’s evidence both before the committee and more generally that very often intimate partner violence does not get reported. Complaints are withdrawn, and charges may or may not be laid.

How do you square your phrase with the fact that it is clear that women are often victims of violence for protracted periods of time before the law gets involved and that the risk increases once charges are laid?

Senator Boisvenu: That is absolutely true. We are referring here to repeat offenders. Put yourself in the shoes of a victim who found out that her abuser, for all sorts of reasons, is travelling to the United States. Justice granted him a full discharge. The victim is under the impression that the individual didn’t receive a sentence for the assault he committed. The victim feels frustrated.

It remains a privilege that this individual receives, and it is a unique privilege. This privilege is conditional on one thing: He must not reoffend.

This individual who would abuse another spouse and end up before the same judge might tell him that he’s not a repeat offender since he was granted a discharge.

In my opinion, the discharge is a privilege that requires an obligation not to reoffend. If you reoffend, that privilege is revoked. This will apply mostly in the case of men who are repeat violent offenders. We’re talking about repeat offenders who are a risk to women, not only abused women, but all women.

[English]

Senator Batters: Will Senator Clement take a question?

Senator Batters: Thank you. Senator Clement, wasn’t it the case that for this bill generally, we didn’t hear any data, period? I think you probably have to concede that the government didn’t have any data to justify the provisions here, nor was there any on this particular element.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I have the honour to inform the Senate that the Clerk of the Senate has received a certificate from the Registrar General of Canada showing that Rodger Cuzner has been summoned to the Senate.

[English]

The Hon. the Speaker having informed the Senate that there was a senator without waiting to be introduced:

The following honourable senator was introduced; presented His Majesty’s writ of summons; took the solemn affirmation, which was administered by the Clerk of the Senate; and was seated:

Hon. Rodger Cuzner, of Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, introduced between Hon. Marc Gold, P.C., and Hon. Hassan Yussuff.

The Hon. the Speaker informed the Senate that the honourable senator named above had made and subscribed the Declaration of Qualification required by the Constitution Act, 1867, in the presence of the Clerk of the Senate, the Commissioner appointed to receive and witness the said declaration.

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question.

As I said, we received a request from the senator, and we acceded to the request. I don’t know exactly what the senator will say, but I think we all look forward to hearing his remarks.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, on behalf of the Government Representative Office, or GRO, I would like to welcome Rodger Cuzner as the newest member of the Red Chamber. Senator Cuzner is an experienced parliamentarian and most recently a diplomat representing Canada as our Consul General in Boston.

As a proud son of Nova Scotia, Senator Cuzner has worked tirelessly with industry and business in promoting the tourism sector in his province. He’s also an avid hockey fan and former coach of Team Nova Scotia at the Canada Games.

Now, without putting too much pressure on Senator Cuzner, colleagues, let me point out to you that Senator Cuzner was twice voted “most collegial member of Parliament” by his colleagues. I hope that his good nature is contagious and rubs off on all of us as we approach the busy and somewhat hectic season.

Senator Cuzner, I know that your experience as a parliamentarian and advocate for your region is a welcome addition to the Senate of Canada. Welcome.

Senator Plett: You might be tired of us saying he’s not worth the cost. We’re tired of you saying nothing.

The Prime Minister always seeks to divide Canadians, and his MPs are happy to follow his lead. When one of his MPs gave the Conservative caucus the middle finger during the vote in the House yesterday, he wasn’t just insulting fellow parliamentarians. That MP was revealing exactly what Trudeau and his government think of Canadians. Isn’t that a fact, leader? Are you doing the same?

Senator Boniface: Thank you very much. I know you share the same concerns I do. I want a bill that’s effective, but I look at events such as the ones that just took place in Sault Ste. Marie as an example. Again, there is a second victim, a third victim, now a fourth victim and a fifth victim. I’m not saying that case had anything to do with bail, but the violence that is in perpetrators does not just impact one person. I guess I’m surprised that the committee didn’t hear some evidence regarding repeat offenders.

Senator Gold: No, it is not a fact, and I think that question applied to me is very inappropriate. That is not what I’m doing here. I’m answering the questions, regardless of their tone and regardless of their motivation, to the best of my ability, and I’ll continue to do so.

Senator Martin: I can’t speak for CAP, but as I said in my speech, I’m aware — based on testimony that we heard at committee as well as from looking at their website — that they have 11 provincial and territorial affiliates, and have done extensive work for over 50 years. I stand by what I included in my statement today, but in terms of speaking for them in regard to your specific questions, I don’t have the answers to them.

Senator Gold: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Senator Boisvenu, I thank you for bringing this proposal forward for our consideration. We’re talking here about a provision that, in the original version of Bill C-48, sought to better protect victims of domestic violence. It was supported by all the members in the other place, by the Native Women’s Association of Canada and by every provincial and territorial government. What’s more, the Attorney General of British Columbia, Niki Sharma, said that she would write to the Minister of Justice to urge him to keep this part of Bill C-48.

Senator Boisvenu, can you confirm that your amendment uses the exact wording of the initial version of the bill?