Senator Kutcher: In three years, we will be back at the point of hearing, “Nine people say we’re ready, one says we’re not ready; therefore we’re not ready.”

These are the reasons I do not support this bill. I hope you will consider all of the evidence before we move forward with what, in my opinion, is a discriminatory piece of legislation that violates our Charter and ignores provincial legal precedent. Thank you, wela’lioq.

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. I will have to go reread my speech. I’m not sure I cited that issue as the central reason as to why, in fact, there is not a consensus within the communities of physicians, regulators, health care ministers and the like. Nor am I in a position to competently predict what kind of consensus may emerge among assessors — psychiatrists, notably, but others — because other health care professionals are involved in the process.

Work is being done on that, to be sure, and one of the reasons that has been cited for needing more time is to translate the fairly general practice guidelines into more specific guidance for those in the assessment process, within individual institutions, individual provinces or across this country.

Hansard will reveal what I said, but the purpose was not to zero in on that specific issue.

The government is confident that three years is a reasonable time. It’s a clear target as opposed to an indeterminate one, and, therefore, the system will be sufficiently ready so that MAID can be administered more consistently and safely across this country.

Senator Woo: I won’t put words in your mouth, but irremediability is, of course, at the heart of the legislation, because it is the triggering criteria for MAID of any kind to be offered.

If, in fact, after three years, the practitioners are unable to come to a consensus on what is irremediable in MAID MD‑SUMC, is it not the case, then, that someone seeking MAID MD‑SUMC would simply have to find the right practitioner who is willing to offer it because of a diagnosis of irremediability?

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Honestly, no, I wasn’t aware of that. That was in one of the briefs submitted to Quebec’s commission on end-of-life care. They discuss the situation in Belgium and in the Netherlands. It’s a bit different. All right, then, I’ll take you at your word.

But there is certainly more than one expert who’s uncertain about the irremediability of psychiatric disorders. It’s a difficult debate. You mention evidence and the fact that it’s beyond dispute, but I think that the Council of Canadian Academies, a respected scientific organization, also reached similar findings on the issue of irremediability. These are professionals, but not physicians only. From what I understand, they are also scientists from various backgrounds. That, too, is not insignificant. It is a social debate. Yes, physicians are very important, but I think the debate is broader than that.

[English]

Senator Kutcher: Will the senator take a question?

Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much for that answer, Senator Gold. I think it’s pretty clear that 2% and 2% are the same number.

The issue here also is that people who have a mental disorder but have a concurrent physical illness are now eligible, even if it’s the mental disorder that is the primary reason for their request. There doesn’t seem to be a problem currently in providing the kind of comprehensive approach and support and everything else that your government is talking about necessarily having for people who have just a sole mental disorder.

Help us understand why this is not discriminatory. If you have a mental illness and a physical illness, it’s okay, but if you just have a mental illness, it’s not okay.

Senator Gold: As I tried to explain in my discussion of the Charter, the position of the government is that it is not discriminatory because the nature of the cases is different. When there is a grievous and irremediable physical condition, whether or not it’s accompanied by a mental disorder, that is a qualitatively different kind of assessment, it is submitted, than if someone is presenting only with a mental disorder as the underlying condition.

The suffering is the same. The desire for access to MAID is the same, but the actual assessment is going to be done differently because, unless I am incorrect, I believe that those who qualify for MAID under Track 2 — or Track 1, for that matter — are qualifying because of the irremediable physical disability or ailment, and not because they have, as some do, though not all do, a mental disorder that accompanies it.

Hon. Iris G. Petten: Honourable senators, sealing has been a vital industry in Newfoundland and Labrador for centuries. To the Labrador Inuit in particular, the seal was, until recently, a staple component of a way of life. The meat was eaten or fed to the dogs, the fat was rendered into oil for light and food, the skin was used for clothing, boots and a myriad of other purposes in addition to trade with European merchants. The demand for seal products led to the development of both inshore and offshore fisheries, driving economic growth.

In 1965, Canada initiated its first seal protection regulations requiring humane harvesting practices and licensing for all harvesters, alongside increased monitoring efforts by Fisheries and Oceans Canada. The government later implemented a seal harvest management plan with continued emphasis on sustainability, scientific oversight and humane practices, reflecting a commitment to the integral role of the seal harvest in a rural economy with zero tolerance for any inhumane practices.

Issues such as seal overpopulation is more and more in the news as of late. We know that the excessive numbers of pinnipeds along Canada’s three coastlines are not only creating an imbalance within our marine ecosystems, but it is also causing detrimental effects on the health and conservation of fish stocks.

I recently heard from a community member who said that this issue has two dimensions of equal importance. First is the survival and continuance of properly managed fur, sealing and fishing industries, thus ensuring the ability of rural communities to succeed. Then there is the issue of destroying the propaganda that has defined us as murderers and, somehow, a lesser people — this message really struck me.

We are also just under a month away from what some refer to as the “International Day of Action Against Canadian Seal Hunting.” Just the name of this day demonstrates the need to work together to ensure disinformation, as it relates to the sealing industry, is being countered at all levels of government. Let us fight these misleading campaigns with educational campaigns. Let us promote Canadian seal products as the sustainable, high‑quality and eco-friendly options that they are, including for omega-3 oil, meat, accessories and more.

The harmful rhetoric spread by some organizations cannot be permitted to be the only voice on national and international stages. We must unite our voices in support of our fisheries from coast to coast to coast. Thank you.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Point of order, please. I would like Senator Gold to read that Notice of Motion in English. The translation was very poor at the start of it, and I could not understand.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Government leader, my question concerns, again, the failed $60 million “ArriveScam” app. Last week, two senior officials who have been suspended in relation to the “ArriveScam” told a committee of the other place that there is an ongoing cover-up related to this scandal.

Liberal MPs have shut down committee meetings into “ArriveScam,” including a meeting last fall, just as the Auditor General was about to testify. Last week, Liberal MPs filibustered a motion to compel the two-man GC Strategies to appear before the committee or face arrest by the Sergeant-at-Arms.

The Trudeau government is certainly acting like it has something to hide — is it not, leader? Who gave the order to shut down the meetings and stall for time? I want the name, please.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That, notwithstanding the order adopted by the Senate on September 21, 2022, the sitting of Wednesday, February 28, 2024, continue beyond 4 p.m., if Government Business is not completed, and adjourn at the earlier of the completion of Government Business or midnight; and

That the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade be authorized to meet after 4 p.m. on that day for the purpose of considering Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine, even though the Senate may then be sitting, with rule 12-18(1) being suspended in relation thereto.

[English]

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you, Senator Pate. It is an important question, and the mental health needs of all Canadians — not limited to those in prison, but including those in prison — is an important and challenging measure of how well we, as a society, are taking care of our citizens.

I’m not in a position to answer the specific question, but I will certainly raise it with the minister.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, we heard more explosive evidence on “ArriveScam” last week at a House of Commons committee.

Thank God for the Conservative opposition for trying to hold this government to account. For that matter, thank God for the Conservative opposition in this new independent Senate. It seems this is the only group who is really preoccupied by “ArriveScam.” We’re the only ones asking any questions of you.

Last week, the committee heard again from the only two senior bureaucrats involved with this faulty and fraudulent scheme that the chief technology officer, Minh Doan — who oversaw the whole thing — deleted tens of thousands of emails related to “ArriveScam.” Yet, he received a promotion within your government, and the two whistle-blowers are the only two people who suffered consequences. That’s how much you care about getting to the bottom of these allegations or innuendoes, or whatever you call them. Why is that, Senator Gold? Why is your government protecting Minh Doan? Is it because he was following the instructions of the Trudeau government, and now you don’t want him to point fingers back at this government?

Hon. Yuen Pau Woo: Senator Gold, it has been a month since the International Court of Justice, or ICJ, asked Israel to ensure that humanitarian relief be provided to Palestinians in Gaza. It has also been about a month since any meaningful amount of relief entered Gaza. Senator Gold, what is Canada doing to ensure that we’re not complicit in any finding of genocide or war crimes that the ICJ and its sister organization, the International Criminal Court, are currently investigating?

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question. The government is not trying to hide anything, senator. The reason given by the members — at the time — is that the meeting was shut down because there was information that they felt would compromise the ongoing investigations.

I will remind senators in this chamber that since these allegations came to the attention of the government, it has taken appropriate steps to get to the bottom of what has been a very regrettable, unfortunate and unacceptable set of situations. That includes ongoing investigations within the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, and the suspension of contracts with a number of companies that have been implicated, as well as ongoing RCMP investigations. The government will continue to make sure these unacceptable procurement practices, and the reasons for them, are brought to light.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Canada is not complicit, and I don’t accept the premises of some of the ways in which our international judicial system is being used.

Canada — the Minister of Foreign Affairs — is in regular contact with its counterparts in the G7. Indeed, the minister has just come back from meetings with leaders in all the neighbouring Arab countries, and is working with our allies and Arab states toward enhancing the humanitarian aid, as well as working toward an arrangement whereby the hostages would be released and hostilities would cease. Canada is doing its part to provide relief to all citizens in that region.

Hon. Kim Pate: Senator Gold, Correctional Service Canada received funding in Budget 2018 that it told our Social Affairs Committee was to increase the number of external mental health beds in community hospitals and mental health facilities to which prisoners can be transferred to receive the health care they need. Now, more than five years later, Correctional Service Canada has revealed to at least three Senate committees that, in fact, no new beds were created. Despite promises to provide written answers to the National Finance Committee by December, as well as to the Legal Committee, Correctional Service Canada has failed to clarify how it actually spent some $46 million in allocations, with additional amounts ongoing.

Will you please commit to providing a response regarding how the missing amount was spent?

Hon. Yonah Martin (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): My question also concerns the $60 million “ArriveScam” app, specifically the deleted emails. On Friday, the Information Commissioner issued a statement that says:

Based on allegations related to the destruction of records that were the subject of access to information requests, the Information Commissioner of Canada has initiated an investigation into matters related to requesting and obtaining access to records regarding ArriveCAN between March 2020 and February 23, 2024.

Leader, that’s almost four years’ worth of emails which have allegedly disappeared. Based on the statement, the commissioner appears to have launched the latest investigation into “ArriveScam” on her own accord. Why didn’t the Trudeau government ask her to investigate?