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Context: Committee Evidence - JUST-75 (JUST) - Oct/3/23

05:09:43 p.m.
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Thank you very much, Minister. Mr. Moore, you now have the floor for six minutes.

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05:09:52 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Virani, congratulations on your appointment. This is, no doubt, the first of many visits you'll have to the justice committee. We welcome you. Minister, there's something I would like you to address at this committee. Since 2015, violent crime in Canada is up 39%, homicide is up 43%, gang-related homicide is up 108%, aggravated assault is up 24%, assault with a weapon is up 64%, sexual assaults—which go to the root of the issue that we have today—are up 71% and sex crimes against children are up 126%. You're new as minister, but you are not new to the file, having served for some time as the parliamentary secretary to the minister of justice. There's a quote you gave that I'd like you to address. These are Statistics Canada numbers that I just listed. You said, “I think that empirically it's unlikely” that Canada is becoming less safe. In the face of that non-partisan Statistics Canada information and hearing what, I'm sure, you're hearing from your constituents—the same as all members of Parliament are—which is that they feel Canada has become less safe, do you still stand by your statement that Canada is not becoming less safe in the face of those statistics?

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Hon. Arif Virani

05:11:24 p.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Moore, for that question. Thank you for the work you've been doing on this committee for many years. What I'd say to you is that there is a distinct problem with safety and crime in Canada right now. What I would say to you, with respect to the statistics that you've just read, is that I've been briefed on those statistics. I've seen those statistics, including things like the crime severity index, and I agree with you that we have a problem with crime in this country, particularly since the pandemic. What I would say to you is that my fundamental job is to ensure that Canadians feel safe in their homes, in their communities, at work, at play and in their schools. That's one of the reasons I've been very pleased in the first two weeks of Parliament to have two justice bills come up for debate. One deals with bail reform, which all parties gave unanimous consent to and which will help keep Canadians safe, and the second would restore the sex offender registry, which will help keep people safe, specifically from sexual assault and sexual assault against children, which you highlighted in those statistics. Is there a problem? Yes. Will this bill help address this problem? Absolutely.

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Hon. Rob Moore

05:12:30 p.m.
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Thank you, Minister. One thing I would take issue with...and I say this only because, for every witness we've ever had at this committee with regard to safety and restoring justice to our justice system in all the studies we've had, I haven't heard any of them blame the pandemic, as you seem to have just done, for this stratospheric rise in crime in Canada. What I've heard them blame are policies that were deliberately instituted by your government, such as Bill C-75, which created the catch-and-release or revolving door to our bail system that's putting offenders back on the street, and Bill C-5, which says that if someone commits a sexual assault, they can serve their sentence from their home rather than from a prison as they should. Minister, would you acknowledge that the measures that have been taken by your government—like Bill C-5 and Bill C-75—also could have an impact on rising rates of crime in Canada?

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Hon. Arif Virani

05:13:36 p.m.
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Mr. Moore, this is where you and I will differ in terms of perceptions. I believe that Bill C-5—and I was the parliamentary secretary at the time that was implemented—was meant to do multiple things, including addressing delays in the court system that were being pointed out by the Supreme Court in R. v. Jordan. It addressed things like reverse onus on bail for intimate partner violence. That is something that we not only believe in as a government but have doubled down on in terms of expanding the scope of reverse onus provisions in the current bail reform bill, Bill C-48. What it also did was entrench certain principles about bail that codified Supreme Court jurisprudence. With respect to Bill C-5, Mr. Moore, again I will categorically disagree with you. Bill C-5 was about easing the overrepresentation of indigenous and Black persons in the Canadian justice system, in the criminal justice system. The effect of some of the mandatory minimum penalties that were enacted by the previous government under Stephen Harper was to overincarcerate indigenous folks on a sixfold basis and Black persons on a twofold basis. On a day on which we've elected, for the first time in Canadian history, a Black Speaker of the House of Commons, I'm going to stand by our efforts to reduce racism in our system and stand by the efforts to reduce overrepresentation.

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Hon. Rob Moore

05:14:47 p.m.
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Minister, thank you. The decision that we're addressing here.... The Supreme Court stated that someone who is on the registry, an offender, is eight times more likely than the general population to commit a sexual offence. That is why a mandatory listing in the sex offender registry of those who are convicted of sexual offences and a mandatory lifetime listing of those who have multiple offences are so essential. It was a 5-4 decision. In the dissent, it says: It is also clear that it cannot be reliably predicted at the time of sentencing which offenders will reoffend. In the face of that uncertain risk, Parliament was entitled to cast a wide net. Have you given consideration to casting a wider net? What has been carved out in Bill S-12 are some fairly narrow provisions that would result in mandatory listing in the sex offender registry when previously any conviction for a sexual offence was listed. Have you considered casting a wider net?

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S-12, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Sex Offender Information Registration Act and the International Transfer of Offenders Act

The Chair

05:15:57 p.m.
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We're at six minutes. We're out of time, I'm afraid.

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Hon. Arif Virani

05:16:00 p.m.
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Would you like me to respond to that?

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The Chair

05:16:02 p.m.
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I'm going to ask Madam Dhillon to start, and I'm going to leave it for her to decide if she would like you to answer that question.

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Ms. Anju Dhillon (Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, Lib.)

05:16:09 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to congratulate you on your new role. It's my first time speaking in committee in this session. As well, to our minister, thank you so much for coming. Welcome to committee. It's nice to see you here. You may want to briefly answer the previous question or I can ask my own.

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Hon. Arif Virani

05:16:29 p.m.
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I would be happy to. Thank you, Ms. Dhillon. First of all, to Mr. Moore, the important takeaway from Bill S-12 is that the vast majority of individuals will remain registered. That's the first point. I say that because there's an automatic registration in two categories, and for everyone else you're going to get registered unless you can demonstrate a rebuttable presumption why you shouldn't because it would be overbroad or grossly disproportionate. That's important. Have we given it careful thought? Absolutely, we have, but the most reflection that I gave to the bill was simply the fact that the Supreme Court said, in its majority view, that lacking any judicial discretion is a violation of the charter under section 7, because it's overbroad and doesn't meet the minimal impairment test under section 1. Therefore, we had to make changes, and we've carefully tailored those changes in a manner that I believe conforms to the charter. Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.

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S-12, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Sex Offender Information Registration Act and the International Transfer of Offenders Act

Ms. Anju Dhillon

05:17:24 p.m.
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Thank you, Minister. You spoke about something incredibly important that is long overdue. It's sextortion, which destroys lives not just in that moment but forever. It creates chaos in somebody's life and oftentimes leaves them in a very dark, negative place. I would like you to please tell us if these crimes have impacted Canadians in recent years and how this reform will help Canadians in cases of sextortion. Thank you.

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Hon. Arif Virani

05:18:01 p.m.
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Thank you, Ms. Dhillon. That's a really important question, because it shows us, as parliamentarians, demonstrating that we're supple enough to respond to the needs as they exist right now. Sextortion is a very problematic situation that's affecting children and young people and also adults around this country. The statistics that I've been shown from the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, Ms. Dhillon, indicate that they've received 3,400 reports of sextortion in the last year alone. That's 65 children victimized per week. That is unacceptable. Again, I speak to you as a father as well as a parliamentarian and the Minister of Justice that, with the advent of the Internet and smart phones, a lot of things happen, and sometimes unbeknownst to us. The fact that people are being made vulnerable in this manner is problematic. The acute response in this legislation is that now those who must be registered on the sex offender registry will include offences such as sextortion itself. That's really critical. There is a rebuttable presumption, so you will be included unless you can demonstrate why you shouldn't be. That will help keep those kids safe.

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Ms. Anju Dhillon

05:19:05 p.m.
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Talk to us a little bit about why it would be detrimental if the deadline of October 28 were not respected.

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Hon. Arif Virani

05:19:17 p.m.
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I'll just say, Ms. Dhillon, that this deadline is looming. It's at the end of the month. It would be detrimental, because the law enforcement community has reached out to me about bail, and we've responded with the bail package. They've reached out to me with respect to the sex offender registry. They've said that this registry provides them information that allows them to keep Canadians safe, particularly from sexual predators. If by October 28 we do not have royal assent on this bill, we will lose the ability to add names to that registry. That is detrimental, particularly when you consider the staggering statistic I put before you that between 40 and 70 individuals every week are being added to this registry. It shows you the number of sexual offences that are being committed in Canada. It also shows you the need to make sure that we have a database of information to help law enforcement keep people safe from repeat offenders.

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Ms. Anju Dhillon

05:20:06 p.m.
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Thank you very much. Can you talk to us quickly about the compliance warrant? What would it allow? How has law enforcement reacted to this? Thank you.

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Hon. Arif Virani

05:20:14 p.m.
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The compliance warrant is an interesting one. The law enforcement community reached out and said that they not only want this registry, but they also want the ability to act on the registry. They said it's sometimes difficult to get offenders to provide the registry with their information or to update their information. Bill S-12 will create a situation that authorizes the police to seek a warrant to arrest an offender who is non-compliant with their registry obligation and to bring them to a reporting centre to facilitate compliance. That's an important step. We don't want to have a situation where people are out there believing they can just flout the law. This compliance warrant measure allows us to provide an additional enforcement tool for law enforcement to maintain the integrity of the registry itself.

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S-12, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Sex Offender Information Registration Act and the International Transfer of Offenders Act

Ms. Anju Dhillon

05:21:02 p.m.
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Thank you. I think I'm out of time.

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The Chair

05:21:03 p.m.
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Thank you very much. Monsieur Fortin is next.

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Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin (Rivière-du-Nord, BQ)

05:21:07 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Minister. I too would like to congratulate you on your appointment as Minister of Justice. The members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights will be pleased to work with you. As you mentioned, we are at the pre-study phase with Bill S‑12, because it has not yet been referred back to us. I agree that it's a good idea to proceed in this manner. You were right to point out that the end-of-the-month deadline set by the Supreme Court of Canada would mean that it would no longer be possible to add sex offenders to the national sex offender registry, and that this would be problematic. We agree. However, can you explain why the bill was only introduced in the Senate on April 26, 2023, when the Supreme Court decision dates back to October 28, 2022, almost a year ago? That means there were six months between the time the Supreme Court ruled that the act had to be amended and the introduction of the bill. Can you explain why it took so long, Minister?

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S-12, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Sex Offender Information Registration Act and the International Transfer of Offenders Act

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