44th Parl. 1st Sess.
October 3, 2023
- 05:33:49 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair.
Welcome to your new role, Minister, and congratulations on your new role.
Minister, you said at the outset that sex offences against children are despicable and you condemn them in the strongest terms. I think we all would at this point. You've also spoken about Bill S-12 and its role in the protection of children.
I take it that you would support the elimination of house arrest as a sentencing option for those who are convicted of sexual offences against children.
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- 05:34:18 p.m.
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Thank you for the question, Mr. Caputo.
What I would say is that it's really important that we have different tools available to ensure that judges have the ability to impose sentences that meet the crime, so to speak, or that are proportionate to the crime. I think what's important is that in instances of....
I believe where you're going is this notion of a conditional sentence order. Conditional sentence orders are available in only very rare situations. One would have to be sentenced to incarceration of less than two years. Most importantly, they only apply to offenders who do not pose a threat to public safety. In the context of a child sex offender, if a judge believes that the person poses a threat to public safety, the notion of house arrest is not on the table pursuant to legislation that's been passed by Canada.
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- 05:35:11 p.m.
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Minister, I want to go back to that. You talked about the denunciation and the denunciatory element, and you're talking about public safety. There's an element of justice here as well. You're talking about public safety. We can talk about CSOs a lot here in the next few minutes, but strictly from a justice perspective, the person who is the victim of the sexual offence, the child, is suffering and literally imprisoned psychologically for life.
Are you saying that the punishment for the person who offended against the child—the child who is imprisoned for life psychologically—should be that they serve house arrest for under two years? Is that your position?
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- 05:35:51 p.m.
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That is not my position. I want to make sure that the record is clear. A person who has been convicted of a sexual offence against a child is actually subject to a mandatory minimum penalty. Therefore, a conditional sentence order is not available to them. The possibility of house arrest doesn't exist. I'm advised of that by my officials.
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- 05:36:14 p.m.
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If I have your position correct, your position is that a person cannot get a conditional sentence for a sexual offence against a child. Do I have that right?
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- 05:36:31 p.m.
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Child-specific sexual offences are subject to a mandatory minimum penalty, which renders them ineligible for a conditional sentence order. That's my position.
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- 05:36:39 p.m.
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Okay—and those haven't been struck down.
Let's say section 151 of the Criminal Code. I'm thinking back to a case that I asked you about, where a mother offended against a seven- or eight-year-old child. The judge reasoned that it was the first time it had happened and imposed a conditional sentence order after trial, so there was no mitigating value. It was overturned on appeal. I believe the charge was under section 151, but I don't recall that the appeal was on the basis that the sentence was illegal. It was that it was not proportionate. To my understanding, and maybe the official can correct me—I would defer to Mr. Brock—a number of those mandatory minimums have been struck down.
Is it your position that a person cannot get a conditional sentence order under, say, section 151 of the code, or section 271, sexual assault, if that is a sexual offence against a child? Is that your position?
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- 05:37:35 p.m.
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I'm going to defer to Mr. Taylor with respect to the two provisions you just cited.
The broad-scale proposition about child sexual offenders is that people who are convicted with respect to a sexual offence against a child are subject to a mandatory minimum penalty. Anyone who is subject to a mandatory minimum penalty is not eligible for a conditional sentence order, such as house arrest.
I think the important aspect, to respond to you, Mr. Caputo, is that I share your concern about anyone who would commit a sexual offence against a child. That is why I want the sex offender registry restored. That is why we've made sure to double down on the idea of an offender against a child being subject to an automatic registration and not subject to the judicial discretion.
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- 05:38:19 p.m.
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I'm sorry. I have only 30 seconds, Minister.
If there is any wiggle room on this, where somebody for a sexual offence against a child, including Internet luring under section 172.1, sexual interference or a sexual offence, for there to be a conditional sentence order, would you be prepared to plug that—yes or no?
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- 05:38:37 p.m.
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I think it's important to...and if you're making an oblique reference to your private member's bill, I'd be—
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- 05:38:43 p.m.
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I'm not. I'm just asking generally.
Hon. Arif Virani: Fair enough, Mr. Caputo.
Mr. Frank Caputo: We have five seconds. Is it yes or no?
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- 05:38:47 p.m.
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I would be open to looking at any aspects that will help keep children safe in this country, yes.
I would invite Mr. Taylor to perhaps respond to the specific provisions cited by Mr. Caputo.
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- 05:39:00 p.m.
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Yes, please, go ahead. It's an important question. If you don't have an answer today, you're also coming back on Thursday, I understand.
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- 05:39:07 p.m.
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It's as you wish. Perhaps I can just very quickly confirm what the minister said.
Paragraph 742.1(b) is the rule that says if an offence is subject to a mandatory minimum penalty, it is not eligible for a conditional sentence, and in section 151, which Mr. Caputo referenced, it's punishable by mandatory minimum penalties.
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- 05:39:32 p.m.
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- 05:39:33 p.m.
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- 05:39:34 p.m.
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No, no, no.
Voices: Oh, oh!
The Chair: I will now move to Madame Brière for five minutes.
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- 05:39:40 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Congratulations on your election.
Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for joining us and congratulations on your new appointment.
It would appear that in practice, it can take a long time before victims can meet a judge or a justice of the peace and obtain all relevant information about their right to lift a publication ban. Not only that, but neither the court nor the attorney is required to inform victims that a publication ban has been imposed. It is therefore difficult for victims to comply with a ban when they don't even know that it has been imposed.
In your opening address, you pointed out that the sentence for failing to comply with a ban is sometimes harsher than the offender's sentence. Who informs victims of their right to request a publication ban, and when is that done?
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- 05:40:51 p.m.
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This situation is addressed in several parts of the bill, Mrs. Brière.
As I previously mentioned, the first thing to be done is check a box on the form indicating that victims are to be informed about what will be happening henceforth. The second thing is that victims may request that a publication ban be lifted. There are circumstances in which such a request must be granted, but from time to time, a hearing may be necessary if the anonymity or personal details of another person, another witness, for example, is affected by this request.
The important thing for everyone to remember is that this bill will empower victims and witnesses and enable them to control and communicate their own information when required, by complying with a few conditions.
Ms. Wells, do you have anything to add on this?
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- 05:42:34 p.m.
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