44th Parl. 1st Sess.
October 30, 2023
- 11:57:58 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for their patience.
We're all concerned about the viability of the natural health products industry.
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- 11:58:10 a.m.
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On a point of order, Mr. Chair.
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- 11:58:13 a.m.
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We have a point of order from Mr. Thériault.
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- 11:58:15 a.m.
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We need to fix the sound in the room so that I can hear the interpretation.
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- 11:58:23 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Thériault. We'll do that right now.
Could you hold off for a second, Dr. Hanley? We want to make sure it's not dangerous for those listening in terms of the sound levels.
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- 11:58:40 a.m.
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- 11:58:47 a.m.
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Yes. The sound in the room seems fine.
Go ahead.
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- 11:58:52 a.m.
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Once again, thank you, Mr. Chair.
Look, I just want to emphasize that we're all concerned about the viability of the natural health products industry, just as we're concerned about the safety of Canadians.
First, I want to call out my colleague for calling into question the integrity of Dr. Sharma as Health Canada's chief medical adviser. To call her testimony “misinformation”, even if there is disagreement over what she said, is frankly outrageous.
I want to just clarify that—
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- 11:59:28 a.m.
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Dr. Kitchen, on a point of order.
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- 11:59:30 a.m.
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I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I guess the question is on using the word “misinformation”. His interpretation of the word “misinformation”, if you look it up in the dictionary, is totally different from what the actual terminology is.
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- 11:59:48 a.m.
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That was a point of debate, not a point of order.
Go ahead, Dr. Hanley.
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- 11:59:54 a.m.
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Thank you.
What Dr. Sharma said, or was trying to make the point about, was that, if natural health products are making claims against serious diseases and people believe these claims, they may be using those treatments instead of treatments that could potentially help their own condition or that of their loved ones. That was the context for what Dr. Sharma said. Using the word “misinformation” associated with her is to call into question her integrity.
I also know that my Conservative colleagues are equally concerned, if not outraged, at some of the regulatory gaps that we presently experience with natural health products and that Health Canada and the Minister of Health are currently trying to address with these changes. Let me quote the testimony from some of my Conservative friends at last year's public accounts committee when they looked at this issue.
Conservative MP Jeremy Patzer asked Health Canada officials: “Why aren't the penalties higher on those manufacturers who fail to meet Health Canada's standards? ...The maximum fine for violating the law is only $5,000. It just seems like it's not a large enough deterrent to stop the bad actors from violating the rules that have been imposed.”
MP Philip Lawrence asked, “Do you not find this disturbing, and are there any products out there right now that are supposed to be recalled and are not?”
MP Jeremy Patzer asked, “Again, when we're seeing things such as, literally, every single site had issues but it's only a $5,000 deterrent for having contaminants in your product, what is the level of the sense of urgency to actually get some real, strong deterrents and actual teeth that are going to prevent bad actors from taking advantage of Canadians...?” He goes on to ask, “What are you guys going to do and what is the level of urgency to make sure that we actually get real teeth...?”
Further to that, MP Patzer asked, “How do we make sure Canadians are confident in the products they're buying, when there are so many holes, gaps and issues, whether they be contaminated products, expired products or not even knowing where these products are manufactured or where they're coming from?”
Look, we called this meeting to hear from witnesses to get evidence on the very questions that were being posed about getting the balance right between product safety and the viability of the natural health products industry, and in fact its ability to thrive with complete consumer confidence. That's why we called this meeting to hear from witnesses with various points of view.
It is on that note that I move that the debate now be adjourned.
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- 12:02:34 p.m.
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We have a motion to adjourn debate. That motion is not debatable. We must proceed directly to a vote.
The question for the committee is whether the debate now be adjourned.
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- 12:02:51 p.m.
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Chair, I'd like to request a recorded vote, please.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)
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- 12:02:54 p.m.
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Debate on the motion is, therefore, adjourned.
We've reached the end of the first hour. I would now invite our panel for the second hour to come forward.
Colleagues, do we have consensus to allow the witnesses who haven't had a chance to take questions to remain in the event that some of the time allotted for questions in the second hour could be used to pose questions to all four witnesses? Are we okay to proceed in that fashion? I see heads nodding around the table.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: To those who are here, you are more than welcome and in fact are encouraged to stay. We're going to hear opening statements from the next panel. Then there will be an opportunity for members of Parliament to question anyone they wish to from either of the panels. If you could do that, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for your patience.
We will allow for the next panel to get themselves set up. I would ask them to go ahead and do that now.
Colleagues, I don't actually want to suspend the meeting. I think we can use the time productively. There is a housekeeping matter that I want to bring to your attention. That is simply on the matter of study budgets. You would have received from the clerk two study budgets for upcoming studies. I'm hoping we can dispense with them rather quickly.
One is in connection with the very study we're looking at now. The amount requested for witness expenses, working meals and headsets is $8,250. That's been circulated.
As you know, colleagues, this is essentially a pro forma amount that probably will not reflect what will actually be spent. It is simply to allot those funds so that whatever expenses are incurred in the conduct of this study will be available to us. The first is in connection with this particular study on the Department of Health's regulatory changes on natural health products.
Is there any discussion on that proposed budget?
Dr. Ellis, go ahead.
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- 12:06:44 p.m.
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I'm sorry, Chair, but you said $8,250. Do we have an idea whether it will potentially be 10% or 20% more or less?
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- 12:06:54 p.m.
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That's the maximum it can be. That allows for an envelope of four witnesses to travel from Toronto and one to travel from Quebec, with one headset and one working meal for each of the witnesses. That's the total amount we're allotting. It will almost certainly be less.
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