44th Parl. 1st Sess.
November 20, 2023
- 04:13:44 p.m.
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Of course, education can't fix everything. That's why we need to do something about it and look into what can be done about threats and instances of domestic violence.
You seem to want to add something.
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- 04:13:59 p.m.
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The message has to be clear. We can no longer release men under a recognizance order pursuant to section 810 of the Criminal Code when 50% of them don't comply with their conditions. When that happens, the message being sent is that they are entitled to reoffend. Justice has to be strict and give women hope, which is not currently the case.
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- 04:14:26 p.m.
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In connection with education, in your opening remarks you referred to therapy, particularly for alcohol problems, which in some instances can be an aggravating factor. You said that you had consulted Quebec and the provinces.
How do you see this collaboration, knowing that Quebec—and I'll be asking you another question afterwards—uses therapies like this as part of its health and social services system? How do you think your federal bill will relate to what is already being done in Quebec from the therapy standpoint?
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- 04:15:02 p.m.
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Thank you for that question. It's a good one.
The federal government has to be involved, as it was for women's shelters. The federal government spent millions to support these shelters. In connection with therapy for men, it's important not to leave the provinces to their own devices from the financial standpoint. A national program is needed, like the one for domestic violence. There has to be a national policy on rehabilitating these men, because it's clearly a matter of rehabilitation. The federal government needs to be there to support the provinces.
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- 04:15:45 p.m.
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Discussions are needed, given that Quebec has its own vision. You have no doubt had discussions with MNAs in Quebec who worked on the “Rebâtir la confiance” report. Another problem, of course, is the loss of confidence in the system. You spoke earlier about how few victims are willing to report their abuser, even today. Did you have discussions with these MNAs?
The electronic bracelets stemmed from a recommendation in the report, as did the specialized courts. One member I spoke with told me that one of the future objectives would be to define what is meant by violence. If more work on prevention is to be done, then it has to be acknowledged that what we're talking about is coercive control.
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- 04:16:24 p.m.
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I don't want to brag, but Bill 24 was adopted in Quebec one year after we sat down with Minister Guilbault, who was public safety minister at the time , and Mr. Barrette, who was minister of justice. We worked closely with both of them on the electronic bracelet issue. We begged the province to launch a pilot project because there was a lot of reluctance about the cost and over how effective they were. One year later, Quebec decided to embark on the project because the Quebec women's shelters were in agreement, as were most of the municipalities in Quebec that were consulted, because they were also struggling to deal with with the problem.
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- 04:17:08 p.m.
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Thank you so much, Senator Boisvenu.
I know you're so passionate about this, sir. You have so much information in that head, and you want it all out.
I'm going to pass it over to Leah for six minutes.
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- 04:17:17 p.m.
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Thank you so much, Senator, and thank you for being a good ally, participating in an end to gender-based violence. Thank you for your work.
I know this is your last bill, so I commend you and thank you for that.
We passed Bill C-233, which provides for electronic monitoring in cases of intimate partner violence. I know in your bill, the current wording of Bill S-205 would allow the Attorney General to request electronic monitoring for any release order under subsection 515(2). Do you think that subclause 1(2) of the bill is redundant?
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- 04:18:08 p.m.
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That's the advantage of Senator Dalphond's amendment. If Bill S‑205 is adopted, there will be a correlation between the two bills. Combining the two would expand the use of electronic bracelets. However, it must never be forgotten that only a justice can order the wearing of an electronic bracelet. The justice's decision must be based on the victim's safety, in terms of protecting both her life and her health. I don't believe the bill would be contradictory, but rather complementary. The scope of the act would simply be broadened for justices when they have a victim before them. Bill C‑233 limits the number of victims who might be affected and the number of criminal circumstances, while Bill S‑205 broadens the scope. However, decision authority will always rest with the justices.
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- 04:19:08 p.m.
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Just in regard to that section, I was wondering why the addition was not limited to instances of intimate partner violence, as you did in other subsections. What was the reasoning behind that?
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- 04:19:24 p.m.
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Initially, the scope of the bill was somewhat broader. The Senate cut it back with a number of amendments, in an effort to make sure that the bill would be adopted. The goal was not really to put forward a version of the bill that would include all my aspirations for the protection of women. What we wanted was for the bill to pass and to amend the Criminal Code by making domestic violence a defined offence. We wanted to send Canadians the message that special attention henceforth be paid to domestic violence. We particularly wanted to send the following clear message to women: “If you report your perpetrators, we will protect you.”
It's true that we could have been more ambitious, but we wanted to succeed and limited ourselves accordingly to what the senators wanted.
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- 04:20:23 p.m.
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Senator, I know you mentioned some organizations that had concerns about the bill. I know the Women's Legal Action Fund, LEAF, and the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies have raised concerns about electronic monitoring. One of the criticisms they have is that it provides victims with a false sense of safety against further acts of violence.
This committee heard, during the study on intimate partner and domestic violence in Canada, that this is especially true in rural and remote areas. I know you spoke about limited Internet connectivity, and I know you responded to that earlier. My concern, however, is that we know, if we look at rates of violence, that they're higher among indigenous women, many of whom live in rural and remote areas. With this in mind, how do you think the federal government can ensure that victims of domestic violence are more protected and supported?
I know we often talk about incremental approaches. I know you have, and it makes sense. You want to get something started. The issue, though, is that it's still not addressing a very high number of women, particularly in rural and remote areas, who don't even have, for example, shelters to go to and also can't access the technology to keep them safe against perpetrators. I'm wondering if you could comment on that.
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- 04:21:58 p.m.
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Thank you very much for your question.
We had some very productive discussions with indigenous communities, particularly in western Canada. Yes, it's a concern. In many instances, young people and adults live in very unfortunate socioeconomic circumstances. There is an isolation problem. There's also a problem with returning perpetrators into the community, which is often small and cannot prevent close proximity between victims and perpetrators. Only last year in northern Quebec, two indigenous women were murdered in the same week by men who had previously been released three or four times.
So the circumstances are very specific and the bill will not be addressing them. However, over the next few years, it will be essential to work very closely with indigenous communities to determine whether electronic bracelets might be able to discourage perpetrators.
The company told us that the mere fact that a bracelet was being worn reduced attempted recidivism by 50%. Feeling monitored inhibits a perpetrator's desire to go towards the victim. Opportunities for the use of monitoring bracelets in these communities need to be evaluated, and solutions will have to be found to problems that are much broader than domestic violence.
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- 04:23:36 p.m.
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Thank you very much, Senator.
Because we are trying to get everything in, I'm going to go to four minutes, four minutes, two minutes, two minutes and then two minutes and two minutes. It reduces everybody's time a little bit, but it gives everybody time too. We'll start off with four minutes with Michelle, and we'll run ourselves around.
Michelle, you have four minutes.
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- 04:23:54 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you so much, Senator, for your work on this.
I think this is really important for people who don't know the backstory. When bills come forward, it's really important for people at home to understand why somebody puts work into what they do. You referenced Julie. I think it's really important that we say Julie's name when we're at this. It was your daughter who was murdered.
I'm reading a very powerful quote from you. You said:
Changing the system takes a lot of energy. But I had no right to miss the mission that Julie had given me.
Joining the Senate gave me the opportunity to be part of a change.
One day I will return to Julie, it will be her, my judge. And I'm sure she'll tell me that we've done great things together, the two of us.
It's pretty powerful when we appreciate where this bill came from and the intention behind it. We are a very powerful committee here. I heard my colleague, Ms. Gazan, say there's criticism that it will give a false sense of security.
What we're talking about, for those watching, is a bracelet for people who are at risk of repeat offending domestic violence. Right now, there's no security. There's nothing in place.
The thing that jumped out at me, Senator, is that you've said this bill will amend section 515, so that the victim must be consulted. That is significant when we look at victims' rights in this country, where they feel like they're in the back seat and that the criminals are first. How are you going to ensure with this bill that victims are consulted and they know where their attacker is?
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- 04:26:00 p.m.
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You began by quoting a sentence that I wrote several years ago, in which I said that Julie would be the judge of my actions. There are also hundreds of dead women whose lives could have been saved who will be judging not only my actions but yours too. Time is running out to protect women victims of violence.
I gave a few examples of countries that have been using electronic bracelets, like Spain. Yes, electronic monitoring bracelets will save lives, even though they won't save all women. A bracelet would not save the life of a woman who one fine morning decides to leave home and is murdered by her husband, who was not monitored and perhaps didn't even have a criminal record. We can never save all women, but we will be able to save those who report their perpetrator and who are no longer living with him because he has left the home. Even if we rescue only 10% to 15% of these women, they would tell us that we did our job.
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- 04:27:17 p.m.
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I agree with you.
The other thing you referenced is that right now many victims don't even report it because they know nothing is going to happen. Not reporting it makes them so vulnerable to acts that often result in death and murder.
How do you think this bill will encourage victims to come forward and report their aggressor's behaviour?
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- 04:27:45 p.m.
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You have 20 seconds to respond.
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- 04:27:47 p.m.
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Thank you for your questions.
This bill would accomplish two things: it would tell victims that we are protecting them and tell men that enough is enough.
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- 04:28:03 p.m.
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Thank you very much.
I'm now going to pass it over to Lisa for four minutes.
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