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Context: Committee Evidence - FEWO-86 (FEWO) - Nov/20/23

Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos (Saint-Laurent, Lib.)

04:04:08 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Senator. I'll begin by saying how sorry I am for everything that you experienced personally, and I thank you for having introduced this bill. You spoke about the many communities and individuals you consulted, in addition to the police and governments in the various territories. You also heard and received messages from victims' families. Could you tell the committee about some of these messages so that we can take them into consideration?

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Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:05:04 p.m.
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Thank you for the question. I think that it's the most important aspect of this bill. I spoke with more than 100 women over the past three years. A little later, you'll be hearing from two witnesses, both victims, who worked closely with me on this bill. The words that we heard most often from victims were “protect us”, “don't run government advertising campaigns asking us to report our abusers because when we do, our lives are at risk”. If you want women to report their perpetrators and for victims to be willing to speak out, then protect them. Bill S‑205 complements Bill C‑233, which has already been adopted. What Quebec did was a complementary process. Most of the provinces have followed Quebec's lead by adopting legislation to require electronic bracelets, or will be doing so over the next few years. That means things have been set in motion just about everywhere in Canada to protect women. The goal of our bill is to give us the courage to protect victims who are brave enough to report their abusers.

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Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos

04:06:23 p.m.
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Thank you very much for your answer. You spoke briefly about Bill C‑233, which has force of law in Canada and says that a justice may decide to require a person who committed a violent offence against a woman to wear an electronic bracelet. Now you're saying that you don't want this to apply solely to cases of violence against women, but to be used more widely. Can you tell us why you decided to widen its applicability in Bill S‑205?

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Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:07:16 p.m.
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I'd like to thank the member who sponsored Bill C‑233, which has already been adopted. However, its scope within the Criminal Code is relatively narrow. I'll give you an example: subsection(4.2) of section 515 of the Criminal code, which has been in force since the adoption of Bill C‑233, focuses on specific offences, but does not include things like intimidation, breaking and entering and being unlawfully in a dwelling house. And yet most complaints from women are in connection with their ex‑spouse unlawfully entering and being in the house. It's often under circumstances like these that a murder is committed, but Bill C‑233 doesn't cover these offences. Bill S‑205 does include them. Senator Pierre Dalphond—whom many of you know, I believe—worked closely with me on this bill. He introduced a section which, if it is adopted, would broaden the scope of Bill C‑233 without lessening its importance.

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Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos

04:08:46 p.m.
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Thank you very much. Some people are required to wear an electronic bracelet as a means of reintegrating them into society, which is already the case in Quebec. However, some remove the bracelet and commit offences. Can the bill that you are proposing, Bill S‑205, help to reduce this risk? Have you taken this into consideration? Has something been provided in this bill that might be a solution to the problem?

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S-205, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to another Act (interim release and domestic violence recognizance orders)

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:09:39 p.m.
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Thank you for asking. We consulted the technology companies that are currently using electronic bracelets in Canada in circumstances other than domestic violence. Examples include terrorism and other criminal offences. In Canada, approximately 400 men are now wearing the bracelet for crimes other than domestic violence. In Quebec, the figure is over 200 men. One of these men recently made the headlines. He successfully removed the bracelet he was wearing without any alert being triggered and the case is currently being investigated. While no technology is perfect, the bracelet's score is 99.9%.

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The Chair

04:10:24 p.m.
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Thank you so much. We're now going to move, for the next six minutes, to Andréanne Larouche.

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Ms. Andréanne Larouche (Shefford, BQ)

04:10:32 p.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Boisvenu. I know that you are appearing in a specific context. You've been conducting a lifelong battle and are approaching your 75th birthday, when most people would be retiring. As for me, when I graduated from my CEGEP in 2002, I returned to the Eastern Townships. As a Quebec woman, I was struck by the fact that I had my whole life ahead of me. We are at the moment trying to make sure that there isn't “yet another one”. I think that's the sort of thing you have in mind. As you mentioned December 6, I'd like to start with some context. I read a disturbing story in the news about rising instances of misogyny in schools, with some people going so far as to celebrate Marc Lépine on social networks. The teachers don't know what to do about it. Without saying anything more about Bill S‑205, what do you think about the issue of education, social networks and the role they play in violence against women?

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S-205, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to another Act (interim release and domestic violence recognizance orders)

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:11:56 p.m.
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Thank you for the question. That leads me into a discussion of my second career, which consists of giving talks at elementary and secondary schools. There is indeed a problem between girls and boys, particularly when they are involved in their first emotional experience. I'm not talking about love. This relationship often involves intimidation and power, even at a young age. I remember something that happened in grades eight and nine at a school in northern Montreal. A young girl was huddled in a corner. She seemed to be crushed and bullied by the group. When she got into the bus, she told her teacher, who was there, that no one was ever going to bully her again. Women have to be taught to take control of their lives, to be sure, but men also need to be taught to respect women, because violence against women is primarily something that men do. It's important to stop believing that women alone will be able to control spousal violence. Men are the cause of spousal violence and women are on the receiving end. That's why Bill S‑205 focuses on therapy. Until an emphasis is placed on mandatory therapy for domestic violence problems—as Ontario has done for a number of years now with considerable success, as indigenous communities in western Canada have done with considerable success, and as has been done for 18‑ and 19‑year‑olds in court for drinking and driving—the number of murdered women will be the same in five years. Work needs to begin at both levels when people are still very young, rather than waiting until they have reached adulthood.

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S-205, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to another Act (interim release and domestic violence recognizance orders)

Ms. Andréanne Larouche

04:13:44 p.m.
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Of course, education can't fix everything. That's why we need to do something about it and look into what can be done about threats and instances of domestic violence. You seem to want to add something.

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Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:13:59 p.m.
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The message has to be clear. We can no longer release men under a recognizance order pursuant to section 810 of the Criminal Code when 50% of them don't comply with their conditions. When that happens, the message being sent is that they are entitled to reoffend. Justice has to be strict and give women hope, which is not currently the case.

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Ms. Andréanne Larouche

04:14:26 p.m.
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In connection with education, in your opening remarks you referred to therapy, particularly for alcohol problems, which in some instances can be an aggravating factor. You said that you had consulted Quebec and the provinces. How do you see this collaboration, knowing that Quebec—and I'll be asking you another question afterwards—uses therapies like this as part of its health and social services system? How do you think your federal bill will relate to what is already being done in Quebec from the therapy standpoint?

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Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:15:02 p.m.
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Thank you for that question. It's a good one. The federal government has to be involved, as it was for women's shelters. The federal government spent millions to support these shelters. In connection with therapy for men, it's important not to leave the provinces to their own devices from the financial standpoint. A national program is needed, like the one for domestic violence. There has to be a national policy on rehabilitating these men, because it's clearly a matter of rehabilitation. The federal government needs to be there to support the provinces.

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Ms. Andréanne Larouche

04:15:45 p.m.
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Discussions are needed, given that Quebec has its own vision. You have no doubt had discussions with MNAs in Quebec who worked on the “Rebâtir la confiance” report. Another problem, of course, is the loss of confidence in the system. You spoke earlier about how few victims are willing to report their abuser, even today. Did you have discussions with these MNAs? The electronic bracelets stemmed from a recommendation in the report, as did the specialized courts. One member I spoke with told me that one of the future objectives would be to define what is meant by violence. If more work on prevention is to be done, then it has to be acknowledged that what we're talking about is coercive control.

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Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:16:24 p.m.
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I don't want to brag, but Bill 24 was adopted in Quebec one year after we sat down with Minister Guilbault, who was public safety minister at the time , and Mr. Barrette, who was minister of justice. We worked closely with both of them on the electronic bracelet issue. We begged the province to launch a pilot project because there was a lot of reluctance about the cost and over how effective they were. One year later, Quebec decided to embark on the project because the Quebec women's shelters were in agreement, as were most of the municipalities in Quebec that were consulted, because they were also struggling to deal with with the problem.

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The Chair

04:17:08 p.m.
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Thank you so much, Senator Boisvenu. I know you're so passionate about this, sir. You have so much information in that head, and you want it all out. I'm going to pass it over to Leah for six minutes.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

04:17:17 p.m.
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Thank you so much, Senator, and thank you for being a good ally, participating in an end to gender-based violence. Thank you for your work. I know this is your last bill, so I commend you and thank you for that. We passed Bill C-233, which provides for electronic monitoring in cases of intimate partner violence. I know in your bill, the current wording of Bill S-205 would allow the Attorney General to request electronic monitoring for any release order under subsection 515(2). Do you think that subclause 1(2) of the bill is redundant?

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Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:18:08 p.m.
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That's the advantage of Senator Dalphond's amendment. If Bill S‑205 is adopted, there will be a correlation between the two bills. Combining the two would expand the use of electronic bracelets. However, it must never be forgotten that only a justice can order the wearing of an electronic bracelet. The justice's decision must be based on the victim's safety, in terms of protecting both her life and her health. I don't believe the bill would be contradictory, but rather complementary. The scope of the act would simply be broadened for justices when they have a victim before them. Bill C‑233 limits the number of victims who might be affected and the number of criminal circumstances, while Bill S‑205 broadens the scope. However, decision authority will always rest with the justices.

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Ms. Leah Gazan

04:19:08 p.m.
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Just in regard to that section, I was wondering why the addition was not limited to instances of intimate partner violence, as you did in other subsections. What was the reasoning behind that?

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Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu

04:19:24 p.m.
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Initially, the scope of the bill was somewhat broader. The Senate cut it back with a number of amendments, in an effort to make sure that the bill would be adopted. The goal was not really to put forward a version of the bill that would include all my aspirations for the protection of women. What we wanted was for the bill to pass and to amend the Criminal Code by making domestic violence a defined offence. We wanted to send Canadians the message that special attention henceforth be paid to domestic violence. We particularly wanted to send the following clear message to women: “If you report your perpetrators, we will protect you.” It's true that we could have been more ambitious, but we wanted to succeed and limited ourselves accordingly to what the senators wanted.

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