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Oct/3/22 4:17:34 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question. I think it is very important to have a discussion about the meaning and importance of unity among allies and organizations like NATO. I will continue to talk about the fact that NATO and our allies who are engaged in this conflict are doing it with a great sensitivity, very much aware that missteps could make the conflict broader and even more difficult than it is. We are finding ways to support Ukraine by providing equipment, by providing training and by ensuring that Ukraine has the tools it needs to engage in this war without it becoming a third world war. That is very much a sensitivity that we have on this side, and it is a fine line to make sure that we support, hold up, empower and even embolden Ukraine in its own defence, while also limiting the scale of this horrendous war.

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The Deputy Speaker

Oct/3/22 4:18:44 p.m.
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Here is where I give my nightly reminder to all members of this wonderful House to try to shorten up the questions and answers so that everybody gets to participate in this debate. Continuing debate, the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Oct/3/22 4:19:03 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is really important to recognize that what is taking place in Ukraine today goes far beyond the borders of Ukraine. The people of Ukraine are putting up a heroic effort in defending some of the fundamental principles of freedom, democracy and so many other things we in western society and many countries around the world truly value, and which are so important to the future not only of Ukraine but in fact the world. In Canada, we have approximately 1.4 million people of Ukrainian heritage. People of Ukrainian heritage have played a critical role in who we are as a nation today, but the impact in Canada goes far beyond just the people of Ukrainian heritage. The people of Canada have recognized in a very real and tangible way that what is taking place in Europe is so critically important to all of us, each and every one of us. My political career in the House has been somewhat limited, but I can recall 2014, when from my perspective we saw Ukraine take a significant pivot. It wanted to talk about trade and was looking to the European Union and countries like Canada and the U.S. to enhance those trade relations. The violent reaction that I saw being perpetrated from Russia ultimately led to a change in Ukraine's presidency back in 2015, when former president Poroshenko was elected. He came to Canada and spoke in the House of Commons, in Centre Block, in person, and talked about the special relationship between Canada and Ukraine. At that time, I was on the opposition benches. Even back then, we talked about the important relationship between Canada and Ukraine. The parliamentary secretary just made reference to Canada's acknowledging Ukraine as an independent nation. We were the first country in the world to do so. We understand very much the heritage, and we have an appreciation for Ukraine's sovereignty and independence. I can recall vividly being at the Maidan, or Independence Square, in Kyiv days afterward, where I witnessed a beautiful wedding ceremony and the sense of young people going into downtown Kyiv, recognizing how important it was that a change had taken place. When Crimea was annexed by Russia, the red flags shot up. We argued then, as we are arguing for eastern Ukraine today, that those are territories that we as a nation identify as part of Ukraine. That has not changed. As referenced, the referendums are a sham. I do not think anyone who has a true appreciation of what has taken place recognizes those referendums as being valid. There is a sense of solidarity for Ukraine that goes far beyond the borders of Ukraine and I believe is well recognized here in Canada. It is a friendship that predates the Maidan. It goes back into the nineties and even before. I think of constituents like the late Bill Balan, a dear friend of mine who passed. There are so many that, even though they might live here in Canada, their hearts can often be found in Ukraine. It is a part of the reason why we have organizations such as the Ukrainian Canadian Congress and many others that do such a wonderful job ensuring that elected parliamentarians here in Ottawa have a complete and comprehensive understanding of the situation that is taking place in Ukraine. That is why, over the years, we have seen substantial support for Ukraine's infrastructure. One of the things that comes to my mind, right offhand, is the Canadian Forces and how we have been able to utilize members of our Canadian Forces in Ukraine. Ukraine has some incredible members of its Ukrainian military who have been trained, at least in part, by members of the Canadian Forces. I think it was estimated to be just over 30,000 or something of that nature. We are seeing some of the training that we were able to provide years ago actually being used today. There are things that Canada has been doing. We could talk about the trade agreement, which was started under Stephen Harper and finalized under the current Prime Minister. I remember the minister responsible for trade and the Prime Minister flying over to sign off. I remember it was something that former president Poroshenko, when he spoke to us in the House of Commons, live, talked about wanting to see. Those are some of the things that we did prior. We had a real hero, President Zelenskyy, appear on our virtual screens and, therefore, on the floor of the House of Commons. Again, he talked about the important role the allied countries and Canada can play to continue to support Ukraine. When, just over 200 days ago, Russia illegally invaded Ukraine, there was an immediate response. There were many people that thought Ukraine was just going to roll over and Russia would be able to finish that invasion. However, the heroes of Ukraine, they stood up. I remember the one quote that was attributed to President Zelenskyy. It was in regard to being offered a way to leave, that maybe he should be leaving the country. He said something to the nature of, “I need ammunition, not a ride.” It is those sorts of words that have inspired so many Ukrainian heroes. It is truly amazing how the people of Ukraine have responded. It is important, as the Parliament here in Canada, that we tell our brothers and sisters in Ukraine that we have been there for them, and we will continue to be there for them in very real and tangible ways. We can talk about the sanctions, the military lethal weapon aid and support that we have provided or the humanitarian aid, whether it is coming from the government or from the people of Canada. I am always amazed at how many Ukrainian flags we will see flying, whether it is in my constituency of Winnipeg North or when I am driving into the Interlake. Throughout our country, we will see Ukrainian flags. I believe, as I said before, it is because there is a solidarity here in Canada to support Ukraine that is worldwide. We will continue to be there and recognize the referendums as a sham.

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Mr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC)

Oct/3/22 4:29:13 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of commonalities in the positions taken by the official opposition and the government. We have been working in tandem on different opportunities on the question of the referendums. What I have been saying to constituents, obviously, because of my background, as someone born in communist Poland, is that these have all the legitimacy of a thief who breaks into a bank and applies for a line of credit during the theft they are committing, which is basically what the terrorist state of Russia is doing. I wonder if the member could perhaps comment on what other steps the government should be immediately taking to provide arms, logistical support and the means for Ukrainians to reach the Russian Federation's true border, the international border that we recognize and is internationally recognized, to ensure this war comes to an early end with a minimal number of casualties.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux

Oct/3/22 4:30:10 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the most important thing we can do is to continue to be steadfast in supporting Ukraine in whatever way we can, working with our allied countries. It is the allied forces, the U.S.A. in particular, that have been there to support Ukraine in a very tangible way so that the heroes in Ukraine are in a better position to get back their land, the territories that will always be part of Ukraine. Whatever we can do to support that, we should. That is what the government, working with opposition parties, is doing.

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Mr. Yves Perron (Berthier—Maskinongé, BQ)

Oct/3/22 4:31:08 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank the parliamentary secretary for his speech. I would like him to talk about next steps with regard to Ukraine's application to join NATO, which has been an ongoing matter for several years. What can we now do to try to improve and resolve this situation in the near future? How can we ensure that Russia will not succeed in getting what it wants with its aggression?

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux

Oct/3/22 4:31:36 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, NATO allied forces are in fact working on that particular point as they have been looking at other memberships to NATO. I see that continuing. One of the biggest concerns I have right now is that winter is quickly approaching and the impact that will have in Europe. I would like more dialogue to take place on that, on what it is we can do to help. As I say, there has been so much devastation in Ukraine it is virtually impossible to describe the horrors in words. We can talk about human rights or cities being completely demolished. There is so much need and winter is around the corner. Like many, if not all, Canadians, I am very concerned about that.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

Oct/3/22 4:32:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is critical with what is going on that we continue to call out Russia's war crimes and crimes against humanity. We need to continue to support refugees and visa-free travel for people from Ukraine. Lives are on the line. Watching the news and with the growing concern of escalating nuclear threats, the need for global nuclear disarmament is more important than ever. I would ask the member why his government, in the face of a catastrophic nuclear threat, still has not signed on to or ratified the international Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux

Oct/3/22 4:33:27 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the member will excuse me if I defer that particular question to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. At some point in the future, it might be good to have that dialogue one on one with the minister. When the member talks about human rights, human rights and the violation of them have already, at least in part, started to be documented. All of us are concerned about issues such as torture, rape and the things that are happening to so many people in Ukraine. There will come a day when we will see some justice from Ukraine and allied countries to ensure there are consequences to all of those violations. That is something we will have to continue to push for.

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The Deputy Speaker

Oct/3/22 4:34:22 p.m.
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I will quickly say that we are a lot more disciplined than we were last time. We are almost getting everybody in, but I see a few people still standing who have not had the opportunity to ask a question yet. Continuing debate, the hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé.

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Mr. Yves Perron (Berthier—Maskinongé, BQ)

Oct/3/22 4:34:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would first like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my hon. colleague from Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia. This is a very serious issue. Referendums are being held in the territories occupied by the army. This is significant. Obviously, Quebec has had a few referendums, but we are not talking about the same thing, not at all. We have had democratic referendums, with, of course, some financial irregularities in the second one, which we could talk about all day long, but that is another topic altogether. How can the legitimacy of a referendum held at gunpoint be recognized? Four regions have just announced the results of these sham referendums, as President Zelenskyy calls them. The result in Zaporizhzhia was 93%, so it was popular. It was a little lower in Kherson, at 87%. Any politician in Quebec or Canada who won 87% of the vote in an election would be a demigod. In Luhansk, it was 98%. In Donetsk, it was 99%. This is actually similar to the percentage of votes President Putin supposedly won in the Russian election. These are totally unrealistic, astronomical results that show how fake the whole process was. I am calling on my colleagues to continue moving in the same direction. Since we started talking about the conflict in Ukraine, there has been unanimity in the House. Could we perhaps do more? I listened, as we all did, to President Zelenskyy's speech to the House. I would like to share a secret with you: I found that to be a surreal moment. At one point, I took a step back to observe the scene unfolding before me. Everyone said they were firmly behind Ukraine, but everyone also said that we could really do no more. Today, it is not up to me to decide if Ukraine will join NATO. It is not up to me to decide if we must do more. However, I would ask that we consider what more we could do. I believe that Canada has been doing more than many other countries since the start, but we are facing such a terrible situation. Imagine that it is nine o'clock in the morning and we hear someone knocking at the door. There are three or four Russian soldiers standing there, machine guns in hand, inviting us to exercise our democratic right to vote in the referendum and decide whether to join “Great Russia”. Imagine that, in the weeks leading up to that moment, the neighbourhood school was destroyed by bombs. Imagine watching the hospital burn down and seeing our brothers, fathers or uncles die. Imagine knowing several women who were beaten and raped, and children who were injured, had limbs amputated or died. We need to put this in context. Someone just knocked at our door and demanded that we go vote, escorted by Russian soldiers. That is what those votes looked like. It is a desperate move by a Russian president who is helpless and who sees military failure ahead. Fortunately, there is hope. In these moments that are so difficult for humanity, that is what we must hold on to. There is hope; Ukrainian troops are gaining ground. The town of Lyman was recently recaptured, as were others. This is a desperate move by a despot who wants to legitimize his reprehensible acts. Let us be prepared for that. It will provide justification for his next move, whatever that move will be. Nuclear weapons have been used as a threat. Should we be afraid of that? Of course we should be afraid of it, because nuclear war is a war that can never be won and therefore should never be fought. I read that in an article earlier. Unfortunately, I did not note who wrote that, but I admit that I did not come up with it. I thought it was a brilliant sentence and I wanted to share it with everyone here today. We have to do something. We need to increase our support. Russian authorities—not the Russian people, because we must not make the mistake of generalizing and painting every Russian as a villain—have acted in a spiteful and malicious way, for example by bombing the port of Odessa, blocking Ukraine's grain exports and ultimately attacking global food security. The Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food heard from a number of Ukrainian elected officials during our study on global food insecurity. They came to fill us in on the situation. I was horrified to learn that Russian bombings targeted grain storage infrastructure. Anyone remotely familiar with military strategy knows that is called scorched earth policy. Weaken people by starving them to death. How are we responding to that? The Russian government is threatening to cut off several European countries' energy supply, to slow the flow to a trickle. We all remember the frenzy over the turbine that was supposed to be fixed. Well, it was fixed and sent off, but it was never installed. So much for the big rush. What we have here is a regime that deals in blackmail and intimidation, and we must not give an inch. We must ensure that all occupied Ukrainian territories are returned to Ukraine. I am including Crimea in that. If there is a lesson to be learned from this war, it is that we allowed things to happen. The annexation of Crimea happened in 2014. I taught high school for 25 years. I taught history and civics. I remember when Crimea was annexed. I talked about it with my students every year. I do not want to scare anyone, but I drew certain parallels, in terms of approach and tactics, with the regimes that gave rise to the Second World War. They start with one territory. There is not too much opposition. It is perfect. They wait a few years, go elsewhere. They find a new excuse. I think we should learn from history. As we speak, the international community in its entirety is calling for calm. Even the Chinese ambassador called for the borders of every country to be respected. Our Ukrainian friends, I would remind members, participated in developing our land, western Canada in particular. There is also a large Ukrainian community in Quebec. We must not abandon these people. I see a Russian government that is going to try to mobilize Ukrainian civilians in these regions, claiming that they are now Russian territories. It will all be in an effort to conscript them and force them to fight against their brothers and sisters in the rest of Ukraine. Let us be firm and say “no”.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Oct/3/22 4:44:35 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the member made reference to a very interesting point when he talked about differentiating between the Government of Russia and the people of Russia. My understanding is that there are literally thousands of Russian residents who are wanting to flee Russia. However, given all the propaganda tools that are out there in the hands of the Russian regime, I am still not convinced that the people of Russia have a full understanding of what is actually taking place. Can the member provide his thoughts on the importance and impact of social media that might actually be at play?

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Mr. Yves Perron

Oct/3/22 4:45:32 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank the parliamentary secretary for his question. Indeed, Russian citizens are currently trying to flee. It is my understanding that they are even being turned back at some borders. I find that unfortunate because people are never really guilty of their leaders' crimes. With respect to social media, the propaganda may indeed play a significant role. Unfortunately, Russians do not have access to real and objective information from outside the country. Many media are censored. That is the danger. I have heard horror stories from people in the same family who did not believe one another because they did not have the same version of the story. It is important to use these media. I do not know if it is possible, but we must do something to give the Russian people access to information. Meanwhile we must keep up the tough stance against this awful regime.

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Mr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC)

Oct/3/22 4:46:41 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Berthier—Maskinongé for his very fine speech and his eloquence when speaking about the problems we face as a western country, as we try to help our ally Ukraine and the Ukrainian people face this Russian invasion. He talked about the issue of information. I would like to hear more from him about accurate information, not the Russian propaganda that abounds on the web and social media in Canada and other countries as well. It is a very serious problem. We need to convince people in our ridings who are confused by what is going on in Ukraine and Russia. They see pictures and do not want to believe what is happening. In the member's opinion, what is the right answer or the right way to combat the Russian propaganda that is so pervasive on social media?

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Mr. Yves Perron

Oct/3/22 4:47:46 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his question. That is a major issue, a really serious one. I do not really have an answer for him. I think we need to start by setting an example ourselves. We have to make sure our news sources in Quebec and Canada are well funded. Regional media outlets are dying out, usually for lack of funding. I think the government could do something about that. For example, it could bring in revenue by taxing digital giants. This is a tangential issue, but it has everything to do with quality of information. If we want our population to be well informed 15 years from now, we must take action now. With respect to Russian citizens, I wonder if we can control Russian servers. Can we counteract censorship in sovereign states? I do not have the expertise to answer that question, unfortunately, but it would definitely be a good thing.

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Ms. Lisa Marie Barron (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, NDP)

Oct/3/22 4:48:55 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, in Nanaimo—Ladysmith I am seeing residents coming together to support Ukrainians who are impacted by this horrific Russian war on Ukraine. I know the member spoke about the coercive Russian tactics being used to hold referendums in Russian-occupied parts of Ukraine. Could the member expand a little on why this referendum cannot have any legitimacy?

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Mr. Yves Perron

Oct/3/22 4:49:33 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, as we speak, more mass burial sites are being discovered, including mass graves of civilians. Not only were they killed and buried together in a pit, but some of their bodies bear signs of torture, indicating that they were tied up for hours on end. How can we consider, for even a second, a referendum held by the occupation forces that committed these atrocities? The Ukrainian people heard their women and children weeping and watched as their men died. That is not acceptable. It is almost a mockery. I feel as though I am in a dream just talking about it. I feel as though it is so surreal that it cannot be happening. Clearly, we must continue to support Ukraine as it defends its territory. I hope I have adequately answered my colleague's question.

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The Deputy Speaker

Oct/3/22 4:50:45 p.m.
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Order. It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, Housing; the hon. member for Kitchener Centre, Persons with Disabilities; the hon. member for Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Taxation.

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Adjournment

Ms. Kristina Michaud (Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, BQ)

Oct/3/22 4:51:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak this afternoon on this very important subject. It is too bad that my colleague has already left the chamber, as I would have liked to congratulate him on his eloquence during the brilliant speech he gave, which was basically off the cuff. I wish I had his wisdom. He often reminds us that he was a teacher in a former life. I, on the other hand, was in school not so long ago, studying international relations. I was doing a master's degree in international relations when I was elected. To criticize or comment on this situation today makes me feel like a bit of an imposter. I wish I were back in school, with the real international relations experts and analysts who fully understand what is going on and are familiar with all the history behind it. As elected officials, we have a duty to take a stand on these issues. I am very pleased that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development has brought this report to the House for debate. It is good when a country's government takes a strong position and makes it known internationally. When a committee composed of parliamentarians from all parties unanimously supports the idea of speaking out against a situation, the impact is even stronger and more sustained. For example, in the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, of which I am a member, although all parties have quite different views on certain issues, such as gun control, when we come together to defend a common and similar position, it sends a strong message both to Parliament and to the international community. I am very pleased that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development is reporting back to us today on this decision and its position against the illegitimate Russian referendums regarding the annexation of Ukrainian territories. This is a very emotional issue for us all. Like some of my fellow parliamentarians, I welcomed a Ukrainian family to my riding recently. A mother and her two young boys settled in Maria, a small town in the Gaspé, a long way from greater Montreal and other cities. They came here, but their dad stayed in Ukraine to fight the Russian forces. They are trying to start a new life here while fleeing the horrific and surreal conditions my colleague described. We owe it to all these people to take a very strong stand. It is important to emphasize that the government has done just that. Earlier today, during question period, the Minister of Foreign Affairs talked about the situation in Iran. She said that it is a non-partisan issue and that all the parties should support each other and work together to condemn such situations. I think the same applies to the situation in Ukraine. Since day one, we have tried to set partisanship aside and take a stand. That is what we have to keep doing. I was pleased that the G7 countries strongly condemned this new attempt by Russia to take its aggression even further, in a different way, while pretending to follow a democratic process, when that is not at all the case. As my colleague mentioned, we are very familiar with referendums in Quebec, but this is not the same thing at all. A person or a government cannot hold a referendum on territory that does not belong to it or that it has taken by force. We are talking about two completely different situations. Like most of my colleagues, I also remember when President Zelenskyy appeared virtually in the House and delivered his speech to us. There was this widespread feeling of solidarity, which we wanted to express as a community, including the broader international community. There was also this great feeling of powerlessness. The government has announced economic sanctions, which is great, but we must always ask ourselves what more we can do. It is unfortunate that Russia, which has a seat on the UN Security Council, used its veto power to oppose the position that should be taken to denounce this situation. I want to come back to the fundamental principles that guide the United Nations General Assembly and the United Nations Security Council. This is something I studied in the past and I think it is important to remember. The fundamental principle of the United Nations, which is article 1 of the United Nations charter, is the following: To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; Countries with a seat on this security council should at the very least be able to respect these principles. We see that Russia has not done so since 2014, when it annexed Crimea. I think it is utterly dishonest to want to take these measures claiming it is being done democratically. One by one, the G7 countries took a stand. Most of the other countries on the UN Security Council were in relative agreement with this motion that was to be adopted. Let us not forget, however, that some countries abstained. Indeed, China, Brazil, India, Gabon and others either abstained from the vote or are reluctant to condemn Russia's aggression in Ukraine, unlike almost all other members of the international community. We wonder what more Canada and its allies could do. Perhaps we should start a conversation with these countries, which could be defence partners and could also condemn the situation. That is something we could do in addition to imposing economic sanctions to allay this sense of powerlessness. We could hold discussions. Unfortunately, we know that there is a limit to diplomacy and that, sadly, some prefer to use force. I do not believe that force must necessarily be met with force. I believe it is still possible to have discussions to achieve our objective even though it may seem difficult in this case. I would have liked to address a few other issues with respect to the consequences of illegitimate referendums. I see that on the notes prepared for us the word “referendum” is written in quotation marks. Obviously, the legitimacy of these referendums is being called into question. My colleague who spoke before me talked about high participation rates as well as the very high number of positive results in these referendums. It is quite impressive, but we know that the military came knocking on people's doors to escort them to vote. One can question the legitimacy of the vote and how it was conducted. One can question the way in which people were encouraged or practically forced to go and vote in these referendums. It is quite ironic to see that Quebec and Canada are trying to combat very low voter turnout rates. They are getting lower and lower with each election. We are trying to make people understand that voting is a right, but also a privilege. Democracy is completely different in other countries. People are forced to express themselves on something they do not agree with. In conclusion, I was talking to my colleague from La Prairie earlier, and he reminded me about something Napoleon said that I would like to share with the House. He said, “You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it”. That is more or less what we are seeing. Mr. Putin would sure like to build himself a throne of bayonets, but at the end of the day, he will not be able to sit on it because might does not make right. I think he should review those concepts and write a happy ending for everyone, but we are a long way from that at this point.

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Mr. Yves Robillard (Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, Lib.)

Oct/3/22 5:01:22 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the member for Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, who gave an excellent speech, as always. I would like to ask her how she plans to continue advocating for more assistance for Ukrainian immigrants who want to settle all over Quebec.

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