SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 232 - Oct/16/23

Oct/16/23 8:56:30 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I always enjoy getting questions from my hon. colleague, who is very intelligent. He always asks good questions. In my opinion, we are in a situation where a western democratic country was attacked by a third party, a terrorist group, whose stated purpose is to eradicate that country. The terrorist group's goal is not to create two states but to eradicate the State of Israel. Israel has the right to defend its population, just as every other state in the world does. Unfortunately, sometimes it seems as though the issue is dealt with differently only in the case of Israel. I am grateful to the Bloc Québécois for taking a clear stance on this issue.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Oct/16/23 8:57:23 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I know my colleague to be a very kind man, and I feel for him and his community. I know how difficult this week must have been for the member, as a Jewish Canadian, and I am deeply sorry. However, my concern is that the member speaks about the right that Israel has to eradicate Hamas, and I utterly agree with him on that. Israel has every right to eradicate Hamas. The problem is that it is not Hamas that I am worried about; it is the children in Gaza. Israel does not have the right to undertake collective punishment. In fact, Noi Katzman, whose brother was murdered by Hamas, has said, “The most important thing for me and also for my brother, is that his death will not be used as a justification for killing innocent people.” There has to be a way we can protect civilians, and right now, that is not happening. There is no corridor. There is no safe place for these families to go. There is no safe place for these children to go. There is nowhere for them to go to escape from the bombardment. How do we stand by and say that killing innocent children will make up for the murder of innocent people?

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Mr. Anthony Housefather

Oct/16/23 8:58:51 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I also know my hon. colleague to be a very nice and well-reasoned person, and I consider her a friend. We disagree on this. I do not believe that anybody is saying any of the things she just said. Israel will do its best, as always, to make sure to make civilian casualties as low as possible. The difference between Hamas and Israel is that Hamas attacks civilians; that is its goal. Hamas wants to kill as many people as possible; Israel does not. Israel wants to go after military targets of Hamas, and I trust the State of Israel will do that.

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Mr. Ben Carr (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.)

Oct/16/23 8:59:30 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to start by sharing a story. When I was a kid, my father would talk to me often about his life as a kid. Mostly they were positive stories filled with wisdom and great life lessons. However, one story he told took place at the Crescentwood Community Centre when he was about 12 years old. He and some other Jewish kids from the neighbourhood were attacked behind the building. They were beat up and bloodied because they were Jews. It really has not been until today that I have understood and felt the same fear that I suspect my father felt back then. It is with that in mind that I quote something Professor Irwin Cotler said earlier as we announced a new Special Envoy on Preserving Holocaust Remembrance and Combatting Antisemitism. It was that the Jewish population in Canada represents 1%, but 67% of all hate crimes in Canada are levied against the Jewish community. This is not to say that we do not have an issue in diaspora communities across the world and across the country. I appreciate that emotions are running raw. I appreciate that when we are traumatized and conflicts such as this arise, we are pushed back into our most primitive state and that innately we respond in tribalistic ways where we feel that, for our own survival, we have to stick with our people. There is certainly danger in that as we seek peace, and I recognize that. I am able to stand on the floor of this House and say that the loss of every Palestinian child's life is tragic without adding the word “but”. The loss of every Palestinian life is tragic. It seems as though my colleagues in the NDP are not capable of speaking to what has occurred in Israel without the insertion of the word “but”, and I encourage them to reflect on the perspective that they have in the ways in which they are contributing to our national dialogue right now on this critically important issue. In the Jewish faith, we have a ceremony called the unveiling. It takes place roughly a year after the passing of someone. On Monday we had the unveiling of the tombstone for my father. As we were walking to the gravesite, we walked past the headstone of my grandmother. It reminded me of the importance of relationship. It reminded me of the importance of bridge building, and that despite the fact that our emotions are raw, we do not have to agree on everything. In fact, we are not going to solve the problems of the Middle East in this chamber or in our communities. What we can do is respect one another. We can show empathy. We can engage in dialogue. Most importantly, I want to come back to what I saw and was reminded of on my grandmother's headstone last week during my father's unveiling. It said, “Here lies Esther Carr. She made everybody feel like a somebody.” Right now, all of us in this chamber and all of us across the country must make one another feel like a somebody as we work through this incredibly difficult period.

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The Chair

Oct/16/23 9:04:10 p.m.
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I just want to say that I was here for the last speech by the previous member for Winnipeg South Centre, and it does seem that he did pass on some great genes to the member. Questions and comments, the hon. member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)

Oct/16/23 9:04:33 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I am not sure if that was the member's first speech in this place, but we were actually at the same university together years ago. I did not expect to be agreeing with him when I asked him my first question in the House. I look forward to future opportunities no doubt to cross swords with the member with greater sharpness in the exchange. I do thank the member for what he shared in his comments. I invite the member to reflect on some of the foregoing discussion about proportionate response versus vengeance. Some members of the House have, I think, tried to characterize any kind of military response to a terrorist attack as being necessarily vengeful. To me, vengeance implies a vicious desire to inflict harm, rather than a response that is survival or protection oriented. I wonder if the member could reflect on that distinction.

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Mr. Ben Carr

Oct/16/23 9:05:51 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I remember fondly the member opposite and I would debate one another on a local Ottawa campus radio station some years ago. Since then he arrived here much sooner than I and made important contributions to our public discourse. The definition of genocide has a particularly important adjective: deliberate. I think of the innocent lives lost, of Palestinians and Palestinian children, that my hon. colleague from Edmonton Strathcona was right to point out in regard to the tragic nature of how it came to be. I would suggest the reason we are seeing such loss of life is as a result of the common enemy to the Israeli people and the Palestinian people, and that is Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of Palestine and of Israel. This is something that we must be incredibly mindful of and steadfast in our repetition of as we engage in this debate. To answer my colleague's question specifically, revenge is not a response to an organization whose fundamental pursuit and objective is to eradicate people from the earth.

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Mr. Peter Julian (New Westminster—Burnaby, NDP)

Oct/16/23 9:07:37 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I welcome the member to the House. There is no doubt that Hamas is the enemy of the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. The human rights violations have been widespread. The killing of 1,400 innocent people attests to that. They are brothers, sisters, parents and children who died. I know if any member in this House could have done anything to stop the deaths of 1,400 people, they would have stepped forward. That is the point the member for Edmonton Strathcona and the leader of the NDP made. At this sombre occasion, there is the collective punishment that is taking place and the bombing in Gaza right now. The death toll is rising to 3,000 people. There are 1,000 children dead so far and 10,000 wounded. The question is if we could stop the killing of those innocent lives, those brothers, sisters, parents and children, through this bombing, would we not step up to do that? Is that not what is behind the important call for a ceasefire, to have that humanitarian corridor so that food and water can get to the people who have no food, no medicine and no water? Ensuring that the hostages are released is absolutely fundamental as well. Is that not our role? Should it be Canada's role to ensure there is no further loss of life?

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Mr. Ben Carr

Oct/16/23 9:09:22 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, the collective punishment is the collective punishment that Hamas is creating. The conditions that Hamas is creating is collective punishment on its own people and the people of Israel. I would ask my hon. colleague to reflect throughout this debate and afterward on what would happen should there be a ceasefire. Of course we want an end to the conflict. Of course we want to end the loss of innocent lives. If Hamas were able to continue, it would rebuild and it would rebuild stronger. It would attack again because its objective is the eradication of the Jewish people from the face of the earth. Although I have a deep appreciation for the moral objective that members from the NDP feel they bring to the conversation, it is not a pragmatic, practical or realistic way to deal with a terrorist organization hell-bent on genocide.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC)

Oct/16/23 9:10:33 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with the member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley. First of all, we are having a lot of trouble clearly identifying who we are dealing with when it comes to Hamas. Last week, for example, I was flabbergasted to hear that CBC/Radio-Canada had asked its news anchors not to use the word “terrorist” to refer to Hamas. Last night, on the program Tout le monde en parle, news anchor Céline Galipeau answered a question from Guy A. Lepage by saying, “Out of concern for remaining neutral, we prefer to use more specific and neutral language, but we can speak of combatants, armed men or hostage-takers. That's what we prefer.” I am going to use the time I have left to talk about Hamas in more detail, because I think some people may not understand exactly who we are dealing with. Hamas emerged in late 1987, at the beginning of the first Palestinian intifada. The group's charter calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state in the place of Israel and rejects all agreements between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. Hamas has a military branch that has led many anti-Israeli attacks in Israel and in Palestinian territories since the 1990s. Hamas continues to refuse to recognize Israel or to abandon its violent resistance against Israel. It proactively encourages and leads terrorist attacks and does everything it can to sow hatred against Jews. As a result, the American government designated Hamas as a terrorist organization in 1997, and Canada followed suit in 2002. Hamas's explicit mission is to murder Jews and to eradicate Israel and replace it with a Taliban-type theocracy. Videos distributed primarily by Hamas and posted on social media document acts of torture, sexual violence, violence against children and desecration of corpses. Even Palestinian officials have recognized that the missiles fired by Hamas constituted war crimes. A Palestinian envoy to the Human Rights Council said that every missile launched against Israel constitutes a crime against humanity, whether or not it hits its target, because it was directed at civilian targets. On October 7, 2023, over 1,500 Hamas terrorists attacked the Israeli border around the Gaza Strip and went on a murderous rampage in the southern regions. Over 1,300 people were killed and thousands more were wounded in this bloody attack, which was accompanied by a barrage of 5,000 rockets launched indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. Why deny reality? The members of Hamas are terrorists. There is ample evidence of that. It is time to tell the whole truth about these violent criminals. This is not merely a conflict between two peoples. These are acts of terrorism and war crimes. What is more, I think it is despicable that anyone in Canada can express support for Hamas knowing that at least five Canadians are among the victims, including Alexandre Look of Montreal. Israel has the right to defend itself and to exist. We will always unequivocally the terrorist acts without mincing words. We will always stand by the Israeli people. Hamas must be destroyed. Hamas has provoked something irreparable, and it must pay the price.

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Mr. René Villemure (Trois-Rivières, BQ)

Oct/16/23 9:14:31 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his speech. This does not happen often, but for once, we are in agreement. The members of Hamas are terrorists. Hamas is seeking the annihilation of Israel. Hamas is evil. We all agree on that. However, does the fact that these terrorists want to cause harm and the annihilation of Israel justify any action that will affect the entire Palestinian people? Is my colleague for or against the establishment of a humanitarian corridor?

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

Oct/16/23 9:15:06 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, as we have indicated today, we are in favour of establishing a humanitarian corridor and providing support in safe zones. We also support the evacuation. As a priority, we obviously call on Hamas to release the three Canadians being held hostage and to allow the evacuation of other Canadians in the Gaza Strip or elsewhere in Israel who want to leave. Obviously, we support those calls.

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Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)

Oct/16/23 9:15:43 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my hon. colleague for his excellent speech. Unfortunately, the hon. member may not have heard that the bodies of two of the three Canadians we thought might have been taken hostage were found today. That means the Canadian dead now number seven. I believe it was an attack. Does my hon. colleague agree with me that it was an attack not only on Israel but on Canada, on the United States and on humanity?

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

Oct/16/23 9:16:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, sadly, my colleague just informed me that two more Canadians died as a result of Hamas's unspeakable attacks. That is why I took the time in my speech to describe Hamas. I think that is worth repeated reminders. We often tend to hear people say they are against Hamas, but there is always a “but”. There should be no “buts”. We must be 100%, unequivocally, behind Israel in fighting Hamas and destroying every last one of its members.

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Mr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC)

Oct/16/23 9:17:02 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I never thought that one day I would have to rise in the House to speak about such tragic events. There is something that I have found surprising all evening: Some have tried to dehumanize what happened on October 7 by talking about an attack on Israel, forgetting that it was an attack on women and children who were subjected to unspeakable acts, on fathers who fought to the death to protect their families, on elderly people who asked for nothing more than to go on living, and on people who were going to celebrate peace nearby. The attack on Israel is first and foremost a terrorist attack on people and on civilians. Does my colleague agree with me that Hamas, which is behind this despicable, sadistic, and unspeakable attack, needs to be completely eliminated, and that Israel has the right to hunt it down to ensure the safety of Israeli civilians, whatever the cost?

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

Oct/16/23 9:18:14 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, quite obviously, my colleague is absolutely right. There has been a lot of talk about an attack on Israel. Now, it is true that some people are trying to downplay the reality of what happened and the disgusting way Hamas attacked Israeli citizens. Canadians died. Some victims were from the United States. There were people at a concert. Young people were there to have fun and listen to music. Paratroopers came in from all sides and started shooting. It does not make any sense at all. That is why we always have to think of the act that was committed, whether it was against Israel or against people from any other country who were there that day and were attacked by 1,500 Hamas commandos. These terrorists did this simply to spread terror. That is what terrorism is. It is about spreading terror and scaring people.

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Mr. Marty Morantz (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, CPC)

Oct/16/23 9:19:25 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, on October 7 we woke up to an unspeakable horror. Hamas terrorists brutally invaded Israel, invaded homes, intentionally killing 1,400 Israeli civilians and taking hostage over 100 more. We must stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel as it defends itself from the criminal and barbarous acts of Hamas. Among the dead are seven Canadians. May their memories be a blessing. At least one Canadian is still missing and presumed held hostage. All hostages must be released. More Jews were killed in Saturday's attack than on any single day since the Holocaust. They were children, babies, men and women intentionally slaughtered in their homes. They were young people, just out listening to music at a dance party. This was an unprecedented, brutal, intentional attack. As we speak, Hamas is threatening to execute innocent hostages. This outrage cannot and must not stand. Do not let anyone say that Hamas is the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people. It is not a government. Its members are not activists or freedom fighters. They are not a resistance movement. They are a genocidal, murderous and evil death cult, and they must be defeated. Hamas has demonstrated, in an especially depraved manner, why it is listed as a terrorist entity by Canada and its western allies. There is broad consensus that the war on Hamas is a just one. Hamas is a sworn enemy of Israel, intent on its annihilation, but it has also betrayed the Palestinian population it claims to represent. Its goal is to maximize the suffering of both Israelis and Palestinians. It serves as a fundamental impediment to peace and the goal of reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinian people. Make no mistake: Hamas is a direct proxy of Iran, and that is why Canada must list the IRGC as a terrorist entity. I have to say that all celebrations on Canadian soil of the evil, sadistic Hamas terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens are abhorrent. Shame on all those who participated. Conservatives unequivocally condemn the invasion of Israel by Hamas terrorists and the sadistic violence that Hamas has carried out against innocent civilians. Now is the time for moral clarity. There is no moral equivalency between democratic Israel and the butchers of Hamas. There is no response within the boundaries of international law that would be disproportionate to the crimes Hamas has committed. Israel has the right to defend itself against these attacks and respond against the attackers, just as any other country would. Theodor Herzl, the father of modern Zionism, was famous for saying, “If you will it, it is no dream.” In 1948, that dream became a reality, a homeland in Israel, the promised land. Working together, Israelis turned a desert into an oasis, an island of democracy surrounded by a sea of autocracy, a Jewish state where Jews could live in peace, free from fear and persecution. Let there be no doubt: Israel is the ancient and indigenous homeland of the Jewish people. Many politicians will stand with Israel when it is easy, but listen to what they say when it is hard. They will talk about both sides. I am here to say that there is only one side: the side of morality, the side of democracy, the side that Israel is on. Too often we see politicians at the United Nations unfairly single out Israel for criticism. I will always stand against the unfair singling out of the Middle East's only democracy. We call on the government to conduct an immediate review of all aid going to Gaza, to ensure it does not go to funding Hamas in its campaign of terror but rather to aid innocent civilians. Already there are calls for Israel to de-escalate. I cannot believe I am hearing this, even from the NDP. I ask, would any country de-escalate after having its people slaughtered in cold blood and still held hostage? No, they would not. I wish the people of Israel and its brave soldiers Godspeed on their mission to defend the promised land from pure evil. As then prime minister Stephen Harper said, “Through fire and water, Canada will stand with you.” Am Yisrael Chai.

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Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)

Oct/16/23 9:24:22 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my hon. colleague, a good friend who delivered an excellent speech. At the United Nations and at international organizations there is frequently something that happens, which is Israel being treated differently from everyone else in the community of nations. At the UN Human Rights Council, Israel is the only regular item on their agenda. Israel is disproportionately singled out for condemnation in every UN agency. It seems, with this war, there are some who would treat Israel differently from every other country in terms of its right to self-defence under international law. I am wondering if the hon. member might comment on that issue.

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Mr. Marty Morantz

Oct/16/23 9:25:12 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank my colleague for pointing out that Israel is perpetually singled out. It seems there is a unique obsession, not only in the United Nations but particularly in the United Nations, to hold Israel to a different standard and to say that Israel is not a supporter of human rights or even Palestinian rights. We see countries in the region, autocracies, that do not treat their populations with the same rights, and they cannot be allowed to stand.

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)

Oct/16/23 9:25:50 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I think that there is a pretty clear consensus tonight that what happened on October 7 is unimaginable. It was a terrorist attack that must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. We also agree that Hamas must be eradicated from the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip is now blockaded and, under international law, humanitarian corridors must be put in place. Currently, this is not the case. In my colleague's opinion, what is currently preventing Israel from setting up humanitarian corridors?

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