SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 265 - Dec/11/23

Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 8:49:47 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I have a great deal of respect for the hon. member who just spoke. However, one of the most important pieces of indigenous relations to this country is ensuring that one understands the principles one is advocating. The member and the other Conservative member earlier are so narrowly focused on the outcomes of their carbon tax debate that they have not even mentioned clean water issues on reserves today. They have not mentioned the genocide facing the 2SLGBTQI+ community and murdered and missing women. They have not mentioned the infrastructure gap. We are left to beg the question: What are the priorities of the Conservative Party if not to recognize the treaty and aboriginal and indigenous inherent rights that are found in this country and in our Constitution? To the member's point about the carbon tax specifically, it is important that he recognizes that federal taxation in Canada writ large should ultimately be exempted on first nations reserves, which is something that is found within the Indian Act. If the member was so concerned about affordability on reserves, would he agree that it is time to ensure that first nations have true partnership in relation to all resource projects, including when they say no to them?

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Dec/11/23 8:50:58 p.m.
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Madam Chair, there is a lot to unpack there, but I actually did mention it. Unfortunately, I only had five minutes, but I did cover health and justice specifically. We did a study in committee talking about indigenous policing. We are actually working on things as a party to address that. So, I disagree with the member; it was outlined. On resource projects, yes, we would like to see more built across Canada, but in order to do that, we do need to have first nations involvement, and we are already seeing it right across the country. We are seeing it with Trans Mountain and others where there are equity stakes in these projects. First nations themselves are getting involved in these projects and actually creating wealth opportunity for their nations. This is something that, yes, in some cases we have done right and some cases we have done wrong, but let us improve on that, get better and come together as a country.

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Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace River—Westlock, CPC)

Dec/11/23 8:52:00 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I want to thank the hon. colleague for his impressive speech on this. One of the issues that the Liberals brought up in a previous speech is around housing and that housing is a shared responsibility. I was wondering if the member has any more comments around that.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Dec/11/23 8:52:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I appreciate the work of the member for Peace River—Westlock. He is a member of the indigenous and northern affairs committee, and I enjoy working with him and his additions to the debate that he is bringing to us today. Housing is something that we have heard is an ongoing issue with indigenous communities, first nations, in particular, and Inuit as well. We know that housing is often cramped and in need of repair, and that a lot of that was exacerbated during the pandemic where people were forced to live in conditions that were greatly unacceptable. ISC, unfortunately, has yet to improve on those actual outcomes. So, most of the discussion that we are bringing on this side is about actually getting results. The bar is not how much money we spend; yes, it is an important piece, but if we are spending a lot of money and getting no results, something is wrong. So, we need to actually have that conversation about how we get better outcomes in this picture.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 8:53:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I deeply respect my colleague. I am very curious, because the member mentioned that there are equity relationships where indigenous communities are buying up equity stakes. One of the things that is required for that are loan guarantees. In the fall economic statement, that was one of the principle features of our economic reconciliation. I was wondering why the member opposite and his party voted against that measure when it was brought forward last Thursday and Friday.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Dec/11/23 8:54:10 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I do appreciate the contribution from the minister. Likewise, I do have lot of respect for that member as well. We do thank the member for bringing in the loan guarantee program. In fact, it was in our platform, and we appreciate the fact that the Liberals took that piece and started to implement it. However, overall, in that 30 hours of voting, the 135 votes of no confidence was exactly that: We have no confidence in this government. We want to have the carbon tax election.

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Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace River—Westlock, CPC)

Dec/11/23 8:54:42 p.m.
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Madam Chair, it is my honour to rise tonight and speak to this debate as well. I guess I would sum it up by two different sayings. In Alberta, we have a saying, “all hat and no cattle” and in the car business, we have a saying, “all show and no go”. I think those statements sum up precisely what the Liberals' actions have been on a whole host of fronts and on indigenous services as well. The government's assessment of success is whether it spends a lot of money. Generally, the Liberal government spends a lot of money. There is no doubt about that. Every time it is faced with a problem, it gets out the Canadian chequebook to write a cheque, to say that it has spent a particular amount of money on a particular issue, but never does it go back to assess the results; never does it go back to see if it is actually achieving anything to make things better. The Auditor General's report says the government has made some dramatic promises in the past. I particularly remember running in the 2015 election and the Liberals saying that by 2019 there would be no more boil water advisories in first nations communities. 2019 has come and gone, nearly four years ago, and we still have boil water advisories in first nations communities. We now see that the Liberals are hedging a little bit. They are saying housing is a shared responsibility. No doubt. That has always been the case. The vast majority of housing in Canada is built by private individuals, built by private money. That has always been the case. Do members know what has happened under Liberal rule? Housing prices have doubled in this country. The time it takes to get a down payment has doubled. The interest rate has gone up maybe three times in the last eight years. The average mortgage payment has doubled over the last eight years under the Liberal Prime Minister. We have continually seen a lack of caring about the results, only caring about how much money they have spent. I am sure the Liberals will stand up and say that when the leader of the Conservatives was minister of housing, he only spent this much money while we have spent way more money—

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Ms. Leah Gazan

Dec/11/23 8:57:29 p.m.
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Madam Chair, on a point of order, we are having a take-note debate tonight about Indigenous Services Canada and it would be nice if the member actually spoke about that. That is what we are here to talk about. It is a critical life-and-death matter for indigenous people in this country. He could respect indigenous people by at least referring to them in his speech.

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All Topics

The Deputy Chair

Dec/11/23 8:57:54 p.m.
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I Just want to remind members that there is some flexibility in the speeches. The hon. member has two minutes and 15 seconds. I am sure he is going to bring it to the matter that is before the House. I do want to remind members that the take-note debate before the House is about indigenous services. The hon. member for Peace River—Westlock.

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Mr. Arnold Viersen

Dec/11/23 8:58:28 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would just recommend that the member turn up her earpiece, because the whole speech to this point has been on that exact topic, which is the fact that the government makes significant promises. I mentioned and referenced that, in 2015, the Liberal government ran on a promise to end boil water advisories on reserves, and it has failed. However, the Liberals will tell us all about the money they spent. The government is completely averse to talking about the results, and we have seen that over the years. The Auditor General's report on ISC, Indigenous Services Canada, included the fact that the goals and targets are ever moving and ever decreasing. These are the targets that the department sets for itself. The Auditor General noted that, repeatedly, not only has the department failed to meet those targets, but it is also then cherry-picking and lowering its targets. One thing that was pointed out is that, when the department is judging graduation rates, it is using students who are participating in the provincial education system, essentially to boost its numbers. The department had over 83 targets across the country, and it only met 69% of them. This is while the department has grown by nearly 100%. Over the last four years, the department grew from 4,100 to 7,000 individuals working there. The Liberals love to build bureaucracy. It always bumps their numbers as they hire more people in Ottawa and can easily say that they spent more money on this. On top of all that, the department has hired more people and continues to have to downgrade its targets or still fails to meet them. We see this over and over again. Beyond all that, the department continues to give its folks bonuses for failing to reach these targets.

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Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:01:02 p.m.
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Madam Chair, the member kept on talking about all the doubling of this and doubling of that, but key, critical investments from Indigenous Services Canada to tribal councils did not double. In fact, it did not double under the Conservatives' watch when the Harper government was in power. The Conservatives cut that funding dramatically. Between the Liberals and the Conservatives, the governments cut that funding in half over 20 years. These are critical services that the tribal councils, including the Nuu-Chah-Nulth Tribal Council in my riding, deliver for women, girls and elders, as well as for education and for health care, which are essential services to keep them safe and healthy. The government has failed in its promises. Indigenous peoples and tribal councils had hope when the current Liberal government was coming to power. Do the Conservatives regret cutting these essential services and funding to tribal councils, and not just the Nuu-Chah-Nulth Tribal Council, but tribal councils right across this country?

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Mr. Arnold Viersen

Dec/11/23 9:02:06 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I cannot verify anything that the member said, but I will say that, in Alberta, first nations communities have stepped up and invested in oil and gas production. They are outraged about the fact that the Prime Minister goes to COP and makes announcements to get accolades on the world stage while putting our people back here at home in jeopardy. Over 100 first nations are substantially invested in oil and gas production in northern Alberta, and they are being hamstrung by the current government. The revenue that is generated by first nations participating in these major energy projects across northern Alberta brings prosperity to every one of these communities and allows them to do the things that they need to do to ensure a prosperous and healthy life for all their members.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:03:04 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I am pleased to note that my colleague from Alberta has risen on this very important topic. Speaking of Alberta, given that the member mentioned this in his response, we have a circumstance of first nations' rights being under attack by the provincial government of Alberta, and we have a lacklustre federal government that is unwilling to protect the treaty and inherent rights of Treaty No. 6, Treaty No. 7 and Treaty No. 8 in regard to the unconstitutional sovereignty act that the United Conservative Party of the province is ramming through and forcing first nations to accept. Will the member join members from Treaty No. 6, Treaty No. 7 and Treaty No. 8 in their near unanimous opposition to the terrible, unconstitutional and racist policy that is the sovereignty act?

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Mr. Arnold Viersen

Dec/11/23 9:03:52 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thought the member was going to talk about Bill C-53. Nonetheless, I would note that the Alberta government has been one of the few governments in this country to put together a fund so that indigenous communities could have an equity stake. They can use that fund to pursue equity stakes in major energy projects. This has brought economic reconciliation to first nations across northern Alberta, ensuring that all Canadians get to participate in the economy and ensuring prosperity for everyone. When people can take home a powerful paycheque, it gives them the freedom to live their life in the way they feel is necessary. I will never apologize for ensuring that we can have full economic reconciliation in this country.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais

Dec/11/23 9:04:41 p.m.
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Madam Chair, this member has been here a long time, and he should know and understand that the colleagues I have, my indigenous brothers and sisters and my relatives across northern Alberta are in a particular condition of poverty right now. That poverty has long been represented in the province, and people's needs have not been served by the ill wishes of corporations that continue to take our lands for granted and continue to pollute our waters. As a matter of fact, we have seen some of the largest oil spills just recently. Chief Allan Adam has made those spills very clear. In Cold Lake, for example, we are seeing the seeping of their tailings pond there as well. The issue that is most important and on the top of first nations' minds is this: When faced with these terrible circumstances related to our land, the members only speak about their own interests, their interests for their political, narrow power grab. When it comes to first nations, Métis and Inuit people in this country, we never hear about the constitutional rights that these people have. Could the member verify that there are, in fact, treaty rights in Alberta, and those rights are directly impacted by the illegal sovereignty act?

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Mr. Arnold Viersen

Dec/11/23 9:05:54 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I am not exactly sure what the member is getting at. What I know is that Alberta's interest in ensuring that the oil patch continues to operate and brings prosperity to all Canadians is an imperative. In Stephen Buffalo's article, he noted: ...the government is cutting our feet out from under us again. Over the past decade, Ottawa slowed pipeline development, passed legislation that hampered resource development, imposed increasingly strict controls on fossil fuel development, and created new levies and taxes to thwart our efforts. These are indigenous leaders who are trying to bring prosperity to their communities. I do not know why the member wants to stand in the way of that.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:06:47 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would first like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. Earlier today, I joined the Minister of Indigenous Services as she introduced Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, waste water and related infrastructure on first nation lands. This bill is an important step toward ensuring that all Canadians have access to safe, clean drinking water. First nations have long called for legislation that affirms their inherent rights, recognizes their stewardship in keeping water clean and meets first nations' needs. This bill is part of our government's commitment to establishing new proposed safe drinking and waste-water legislation in consultation and in conjunction with first nations. It closely aligns with the ongoing efforts of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to strengthen relationships between the federal government and indigenous people. This collaboration with CIRNAC is essential in addressing the broader context of indigenous rights and self-determination. On a personal note, upon my appointment as the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, I emphasized that my contribution to this role stems from a lived experience, a profound understanding of what survival entails, the impact of oppression and the enduring effects of colonialism. I bring this perspective in the most personal and heartfelt manner, and I am committed to working in partnership with indigenous communities to walk the path of reconciliation, which includes improving water and waste-water operations. On this note, I would like to thank my colleagues opposite for their incredible advocacy and their persistent efforts to keep the government accountable. First nations have put in the hard work required, with support from Indigenous Services Canada, to lift 143 long-term drinking water advisories. We recognize that there is more to do. For the 28 active long-term advisories that still exist, there are comprehensive action plans in place for each of the 26 affected communities. Our government is collaborating with first nations to lift advisories on public systems as quickly as possible. We will continue to make sustainable investments that support access to safe and clean drinking water in first nations. This includes expanding existing water delivery systems and supporting local water operators with their regular monitoring and testing of water quality. This commitment is paying off, as 267 short-term advisories have been prevented from becoming long-term advisories. Moreover, many of these have been resolved quickly by operators. For example, in Yukon, the circuit rider training program is implemented by Yukon University, with the support of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada. This is one example of our government supporting first nations as they take control of their water operations. This program is funded by Indigenous Services Canada and delivered on-site. It provides training and support to local water operators, who are responsible for monitoring and maintaining water systems in first nations communities. We acknowledge that it is not enough to only eliminate existing long-term drinking water advisories. We need to ensure that everyone in Canada can have reliable access to safe drinking water. In order to make this happen, first nations must have the capacity to operate their own water systems and the self-determination access to do so. This year, Warren Brown from Lytton First Nation received the 2023 National First Nations Water Leadership Award for his outstanding commitment to protecting his community's water supply. While others in his community evacuated to escape the threat of wildfires in 2021, Brown stayed behind to maintain the community's water treatment plant. This meant that the community was able to enjoy clean drinking water when they returned home. Today, Warren Brown operates 13 drinking water systems and has helped lift six long-term drinking water advisories. Last year, Indigenous Services Canada launched a call for proposals to identify how water operators on reserves can be better supported. This led to the funding of training workshops for current water operators, as well as funding for programs to attract new water operators in the field. We have seen meaningful results from our government's effort to help first nations control their own water infrastructure. Transformative work is happening in first nations communities across Canada. The Atlantic First Nations Water Authority is a leading example of first nations showing innovative solutions to water solutions. This central water authority supports first nations communities in Atlantic Canada to upgrade, maintain and manage water and waste-water services. Most importantly, this authority is controlled by first nations and is a strong example of a step toward self-determination. The AFNWA draws from traditional values, culture and knowledge to help guide its operators. The work merges indigenous knowledge, such as the seven grandfather teachings, with western science, which is an approach called two-eyed seeing. For those who may not be familiar with two-eyed seeing, it is a guiding principle that encourages the simultaneous use of indigenous and western world views. It recognizes the values of both perspectives, allowing communities to draw from the strengths of both traditions to find innovative and holistic solutions. Part of the reason we are seeing these important strides forward is that communities can implement different solutions according to their own needs. There is no one-plan-fits-all approach. This work is guided at a community's own pace. This emphasis on self-determination allows communities to tailor solutions to their unique needs. The positive outcomes of this approach are evident in the success stories we have witnessed across various regions. Our government recognizes that we must work in partnership with indigenous communities to ensure that everyone has access to safe and clean drinking water. First nations partners show innovation and leadership in water practices, and we must ensure that communities have the tools and resources they need to implement their own approach and solutions. In conclusion, this is an ongoing commitment. The collaboration efforts between our government and first nations communities are about an enduring partnership. There will always be more work to do, and we look forward to continuing this journey together.

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Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:14:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I asked a question of the parliamentary secretary earlier and I want to get the minister's take on it as well. I looked at the website for Crown Indigenous Relations, which is his department, in the context of water legislation. It talks about the engagement approach, which includes “advancing development of a legislative proposal” with the Assembly of First Nations, “ongoing direct engagement with First Nations rights holders, Modern Treaty and Self Governing Nations” and “engaging provinces and territories”. What we heard earlier from the parliamentary secretary is that it almost seemed like that was an opportunity to fill out a form. In a statement from the FSIN today, it said: ...the first public draft released by Canada in February was developed in secret by Indigenous Services Canada without any direct input from First Nations, a fact that has been raised by the Assembly of First Nations and several regional First Nations organizations over the course of 2023. Can the minister maybe clarify a bit about how the consultation was done? Was there any going out and talking to people or was there just an online application where people got to participate in the process?

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree

Dec/11/23 9:15:39 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I know Bill C-61 is not the subject of our conversation today, but it is one of the first co-developed pieces of legislation that has been introduced. It really stems from the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, or UNDRIP. In many ways it was co-developed, and there were a number of different elements to that. One of them was consultation, which included two sets of consultations. One was for the initial draft and the second was for an improved draft. Subsequent to that, there was a group that did work, and many of them spoke today. We had the Chiefs of Ontario and Grand Chief Glen Hare, for example, who spoke today, and others spoke about the work they did to co-develop. I am very proud of the fact that this was co-developed. I think we can take a lot of learning from here and apply it to other legislation we are developing and co-developing. I look forward to working with my colleague to improve this process.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:16:54 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would like to thank the hon. minister for his comments. I know he spoke about Bill C-61, but here is the thing: It is 2023 and the government is patting itself on the back because we do not have that many more boil water advisories to deal with. There are 26. It is abhorrent. The normalization of violating the rights of indigenous people is so accepted in Canada and by the government that we are bragging that there are still 26 boil water advisories. I find this shocking. What we are actually here to talk about is the sunsetting of $7.6 billion in programs to Indigenous Services Canada. We know that, under the current situation, this is costing people's lives. I have had the pleasure of working a lot with the minister around the issue of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls, two-spirit people and gender-diverse folks, and some of these cuts will make the difference between somebody living or not. Does my hon. colleague agree with me that these cuts are reckless, knowing that most of these programs are underfunded? Is he committed to doing whatever he needs to do to make sure that does not happen?

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