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Decentralized Democracy

House Hansard - 316

44th Parl. 1st Sess.
May 23, 2024 10:00AM
Context: House Hansard - 316 - May/23/24
Mr. Michael Cooper (St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC)
  • May/23/24 9:22:33 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time three ways, with the hon. member for Louis-Saint-Laurent, followed by the member for Langley—Aldergrove. The RCMP carried out a criminal investigation into whether the Prime Minister obstructed justice when he fired Jody Wilson-Raybould as his attorney general during the SNC-Lavalin scandal. At committee, the RCMP confirmed that this investigation was thwarted after the Prime Minister hid behind cabinet confidence, refusing to turn over documents that were requested by the RCMP. Can the minister confirm whether the Prime Minister will finally end the obstruction and turn over the documents so that the RCMP can complete its investigation?
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Hon. Arif Virani (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)
  • May/23/24 9:23:33 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would indicate to the member opposite that the investigations into this matter, or any other matter by the RCMP, are handled independently in a democracy such as ours, by the RCMP themselves. It would be untoward for me to be commenting on the nature of that prosecution or its direction.
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Mr. Michael Cooper
  • May/23/24 9:23:56 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the RCMP investigation report states that the strongest theory toward obstruction of justice rests on whether the Prime Minister fired Jody Wilson-Raybould so that a new attorney general would make a different decision with respect to the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin. Again, if the Prime Minister has nothing to hide, if he is in fact not guilty of obstructing justice, then why will he not waive cabinet confidence and turn over the documents to the RCMP?
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Hon. Arif Virani
  • May/23/24 9:24:37 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, after assuming this role, I would indicate that the important division and distinction made with respect to prosecutions through the Director of Public Prosecutions Act and through the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions has never been more apparent to me. I will give credit where credit is due. That is actually a creation of the Harper government, I believe, circa 2006-07. That is an important feature of our constitutional democracy. It needs to be safeguarded, and it is being safeguarded. Decisions about prosecutions are made independently of me in this democracy, and that is a good thing. In fact, it is something that the Malaysian government has actually sought to study, in terms of the model that we use here in Canada. The Malaysian government has sent visitations to me, to learn about our model.
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Mr. Mark Gerretsen
  • May/23/24 9:25:18 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, correct me if I am wrong, but the questions that are posed tonight are supposed to be with respect to the estimates. Is that correct? If so, the last line of questioning has significantly deviated from that.
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Mr. Michael Cooper
  • May/23/24 9:25:57 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I have three observations. First, members have wide ambit during estimates in the questions posed to the minister. That has been respected this evening until I posed a question relating to the Prime Minister's potential criminality that irked the member for Kingston and the Islands. Second, the order in council with respect to cabinet confidence indicated that the RCMP went to the Department of Justice first to ask that the order in council and its scope be extended. Third, the matter of the SNC-Lavalin scandal, and what followed, arises from a decision of the director of public prosecutions that is housed within the minister's department.
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The Speaker
  • May/23/24 9:26:51 p.m.
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As mentioned, all hon. members have a wide ambit in terms of posing questions, and the questions are relevant to the Minister of Justice. The hon. member for St. Albert—Edmonton has the floor for the next question.
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Mr. Michael Cooper
  • May/23/24 9:27:07 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the very evidence that the Prime Minister has withheld from the RCMP goes to the heart of whether the Prime Minister committed a crime, whether he obstructed justice and whether he fired Jody Wilson-Raybould so that a new attorney general would make a different decision with respect to the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin. The Prime Minister can waive cabinet confidence tonight. Again, if the Prime Minister has nothing to hide, then why has the cover-up continued?
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Hon. Arif Virani
  • May/23/24 9:27:53 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, what I would respectfully point out to the member opposite is the fact that an investigation was launched by the RCMP. It was not directed by any member on this side of the House, or any member of the House, which is as it needs to be. The fact that the investigation has run its course demonstrates that there is no involvement by the Prime Minister, the Government of Canada or my office, as there needs not to be. That is fundamental to the way our democracy operates. I would just reiterate that the distinction bears its hallmarks in legislation that was actually introduced by the member opposite's party.
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Mr. Michael Cooper
  • May/23/24 9:28:31 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, first, paragraph 23 of the RCMP investigation report states that it should be emphasized that the conclusions reached in the report do not translate to the absence of a criminal offence. In other words, the Prime Minister has not been cleared by the RCMP. Second, paragraph 24 of the report says that if there is additional evidence, the RCMP will reopen the investigation. The reason the RCMP had to close the investigation is that the Prime Minister is hiding behind cabinet documents that go to the heart of whether he obstructed justice. Is not the real reason the Prime Minister continues to hide behind cabinet confidence that he obstructed justice? He fired Jody Wilson-Raybould because she stood up to his corrupt demands that she interfere in the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin. Is that not what happened?
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The Speaker
  • May/23/24 9:29:24 p.m.
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The time has elapsed for the hon. member's question, but I will invite the minister to provide a very brief response.
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Hon. Arif Virani
  • May/23/24 9:29:31 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, what I would reiterate is that the RCMP, when it makes a decision to open an investigation or conclude an investigation, which may or may not result in an act of prosecution, that is an independent decision. That is important to support in our democracy, and we will always continue to do so.
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Mr. Gérard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC)
  • May/23/24 9:29:53 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Langley—Aldergrove . Two months ago, a legal saga ended when former justice Jacques Delisle admitted his guilt in the 2009 murder of his wife. Does the minister know what action his predecessor, the Hon. David Lametti, took in this case?
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Hon. Arif Virani (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)
  • May/23/24 9:30:17 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the Delisle case in Quebec highlights the importance of changing our system regarding the way investigations are conducted following a bad conviction. That is why we must promote Bill C-40, in order to change our system and discover more cases that are at issue, such as that of Mr. Delisle.
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Mr. Gérard Deltell
  • May/23/24 9:30:44 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, what was it that led the former minister of justice, Mr. Lametti, to order another trial? Can the minister answer me?
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Hon. Arif Virani
  • May/23/24 9:30:56 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, what I can say is that it is not up to the minister to decide the guilt or innocence of someone who—
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The Speaker
  • May/23/24 9:31:02 p.m.
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The hon. member for Louis-Saint-Laurent.
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Mr. Gérard Deltell
  • May/23/24 9:31:04 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the minister referred to a miscarriage of justice. Does the current minister respect Canada's Criminal Conviction Review Group, yes or no?
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Hon. Arif Virani
  • May/23/24 9:31:16 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, under the current process, the minister relies on a recommendation from the Criminal Conviction Review Group. That is the system we have now.
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Mr. Gérard Deltell
  • May/23/24 9:31:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the Criminal Conviction Review Group did not find that any miscarriages of justice had occurred. However, Minister Lametti ordered another trial, citing a miscarriage of justice. Does the minister believe that Minister Lametti did the right thing, yes or no?
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