Senator Housakos: Senator Dawson, will you agree that at that same study we had at committee, the former chair of the CRTC, when he came before the committee, made it clear he has authority under the old Broadcasting Act and the current piece of legislation to force platforms to manipulate algorithms in order to get certain results when it comes to user-generated content? Is that true?

Senator Dawson: I don’t want to repeat what we did during the two-and-a-half years that we have been debating this issue in which people have been trying a little bit of fear-mongering by saying, “We are going to take away the right of people to create, and the right of people to express themselves.” This is not the objective of the bill. It never was. I don’t know how many times we have to tell you, Senator Housakos, that is not going to — I am trying to be creative, and — I know there was a strong political objective on your part — and everybody here knows that it was a very good fundraising period for you to go on television and talk about this bill — but the reality is that you have been raising issues that are not true for Canadians in that bill. I am sad to have to say that, in the last few weeks of being here, it is the first time I have seen you in such an approach — because you have always been quite transparent on what you do — but, on this bill, I don’t know why you decided to be very aggressive. As chair of the committee, you certainly did not — and we accepted every person you asked us to listen to. We accepted every digital creator that you put on our list. Every single last one of them came to committee, and we kept telling them, “Somebody told you this, but it is not true; you are not going to be controlled by this bill.” You can continue saying it again, but it is still not going to be true because you will repeat it in your speech later in the week.

Senator Housakos: I’m glad that Senator Simons recognizes the problem that I’ve highlighted, and she’s absolutely right. Her amendment is one step forward, but it can be a lot clearer by simply saying, “platforms in, users out” — black and white, no ambiguity — and then hopefully the government will accept it.

Senator Dawson, the reason I have had a lot of success in the opposition in terms of fundraising and getting support on this bill is because hundreds of thousands of Canadians are concerned by it. That was reflected at committee. That’s why I’ve been a little bit more aggressive than usual in fighting back on a piece of legislation. It’s because hundreds of thousands of content creators in Canada feel their livelihoods are at risk.

Senator Dawson, my last question to you is the following: Would you agree that Canadian arts and culture have never seen more growth than in the last decade? Producers, writers, actors are busier in terms of work, money produced, revenue generated and Canadian content being spread around the world. Would you agree that’s because of the digital web? Don’t you think we should unleash that rather than try to reel it in to our broadcasting world, which has clearly been failing?

Senator Dawson: That growth in Canadian culture is based on legislation that was passed here, whether in 1991 or when we created the CRTC 50 years ago. We gave ourselves the structure. Yes, they are gatekeepers, and I know you don’t like this word, but they are gatekeepers. If we have a culture —

[Translation]

I’m talking specifically about Quebec and francophones in Canada. If we didn’t have cultural laws such as the Broadcasting Act, if we didn’t have the CRTC and if we weren’t passing this legislation today, our culture would be weakened.

We can’t play by traditional rules because of all the changes in technology. We have to pass new legislation in order to adapt.

The amount of information received in English compared to French is completely disproportionate. We must ensure that francophone producers in particular, in Quebec and outside Quebec, are given the tools they need to protect their culture. This may not necessarily be a priority for you, but it has been for me as long as I’ve been here. It was when I was an MP, and it will be when I leave Parliament. I believe that culture must be defended through Parliament, through laws and structures that give Canadian cultural producers the opportunity not only to be protected, but to be supported so they can promote their objectives.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Senator Housakos, I’m not denying that the platforms give us a great deal of choice and that we can listen to a lot more cultural products from outside Canada. I’m someone who really enjoys this diversity.

The problem is that Canadian cultural products are not being seen. They’re hidden, especially products from minority groups, whether it’s francophone minorities or Indigenous minorities, because it’s all about clicks — not only clicks, but clicks are part of it.

Yes, I have faith in Canadians, but Canada is sparsely populated and has always relied on cultural policies for its culture to survive and flourish. It’s nothing to be ashamed of, and many countries do the same thing. We are not the United States, of course. We are a smaller culture that has the right to survive. Every country has the right to promote its culture. That’s part of the cultural exemptions in free trade agreements.

[English]