Hon. Hassan Yussuff: Thank you, minister, for being here today. I want to thank you again for all the good work that’s happening across the country, especially on the file you’re responsible for.

As you may know, I spend a great deal of my time advocating on behalf of working people across this country. In that context, I was a co-chair of the task force to phase out coal-fired generation in our country. Workers embraced the 10 recommendations that were made as part of our task force report. I know that the government has certainly been consulting workers in regard to implementing Just Transition legislation.

Can you assure our colleagues here in the Senate that sometime in the near future — which means spring of next year — we could see your government acting on the Just Transition program? Would that also include all of the elements recommended by our Just Transition Task Force for Canadian Coal Power Workers and Communities?

Hon. Peter M. Boehm: Minister, thank you very much for being with us today. It’s no secret that our European friends and allies are in for a tough winter and probably an even tougher winter after that because of Russia’s aggression in Ukraine and the shift away from Russian oil and gas.

When German Chancellor Olaf Scholz was here in Canada a few months ago, a Canada-Germany Hydrogen Alliance was signed, looking at the development of hydrogen exports, particularly from Newfoundland. I am wondering whether you can comment on the feasibility, and how the work is going with respect to the fact that it is a very competitive field out there with large international competitors.

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you. Yes, as you say, forests are an important carbon sink, alongside wetlands and peatlands. Certainly, we are focused on trying to enhance the carbon sinks through programs like the 2 Billion Trees program. But as you also rightly point out, forestry, and particularly anything related to things like the waste that we leave in the forests, create methane and, at times, CO₂, which contribute to climate change.

Canada does account for all of that. We use guidelines that are recognized by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. There are some environmental organizations who think that some of those guidelines should be different and changed. We have engaged with them — Nature Canada is one of them; Natural Resources Defense Council is another. We are engaged in conversations with them, but, of course, Canada doesn’t want to invent its own guidelines. We want to work in lockstep with our international partners, and we are doing that on an ongoing basis.

Certainly, we are focused very much going forward on trying to find ways, for example, to better utilize the value that exists — for example, in waste which presently is often left in the forest, creating methane but also costing our economy dollars.

[Translation]

Hon. Clément Gignac: Hello, minister.

As the former Quebec Minister of Natural Resources, I want to recognize the great work you’ve been doing and point out that Canadians should know how important natural resource development is as a means of creating wealth while respecting the environment.

I want to continue the conversation that my colleague started about the Atlantic Loop. I’d like to hear more of your thoughts on it. The 2030 timeline is very short when it comes to getting infrastructure built. I’d like to know what kind of financial support could be granted for this project.

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you for the question. I will answer in English to be clearer.

[English]

I certainly welcome Mr. DeMarco’s report, and there were many elements of it that I agreed with. What I would say is what Natural Resources Canada did was different from what Environment and Climate Change Canada did. Environment and Climate Change Canada developed a climate plan that was actually based on what hydrogen could do in terms of emissions reductions within the relevant time frame, and they looked really only at one application. Natural Resources Canada looked at what’s called a “full potential,” which is all of the applications for which hydrogen could be utilized — if you actually seized all of those opportunities, what is the full potential you could look at?

Often, businesses, as you will know, do a full potential to try to understand what may be possible. It doesn’t mean that’s what you choose to do in terms of the specific avenues you will go down. But I would say the full potential is useful in terms of trying to actually ensure that we understand where the biggest opportunities are from both an emissions reduction and an economic perspective.

I am very comfortable that the work we did and will do going forward is helping us to move that forward with respect to the hydrogen strategy. I used to run a hydrogen business. It’s an area I know reasonably well, and I do think hydrogen represents an enormous economic opportunity for Canada. It is also one of those things that we are going to need for applications that are very hard to use electricity in, for example, like heavy-duty trucking or even, in some cases, home heating.

So I welcome Mr. DeMarco’s report, but I do think it is important to understand they are slightly different in terms of the focus.

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: It’s a very good question, senator. As you know, the money for the Critical Minerals Strategy was in the 2022 budget. It was $3.8 billion. It is actually very unusual for a government to effectively pre-fund a strategy that has not been fully finalized, but that’s what we did in the budget, and then we launched the final version of the strategy just last week.

It is critically important for Canada. I think it represents, as you would have seen me say in the press conference, a generational economic opportunity for this country, not just around extraction but around processing and the manufacturing of batteries and electric vehicles. It is also important, as we move forward, that we are transparent with Canadians about the progress that is being made along the chain. Of that $3.8 billion, some is for projects, some is for infrastructure and some is for geological science.

My expectation going forward is that at least annually we would be reporting out on the progress of the strategy.

[Translation]

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you for the question. I would say that the responsibility for the list of banned individuals falls to Minister Joly. I am very open to the idea of having a conversation, if you can give me the information you were talking about. It is important because Canada is a leader when it comes to banning bad actors, including Russia, which invaded Ukraine. I am very open to the idea of having a conversation with you and then with Minister Joly.

[English]

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: It’s a great question. I would say that Canada has been doing everything it possibly can to support our European friends and allies in the aftermath of the brutal and illegal invasion of Ukraine. That started with the commitment we made to augment production of oil and gas in this country by 300,000 barrels a day such that we were creating more liquidity in the global market to enable countries like Germany to move away from Russian oil and gas. But it certainly also involves the conversation around hydrogen.

Chancellor Scholz and my counterpart, Vice-Chancellor Habeck, were here for a very important and, I think, successful visit. As you say, part of that was the signing of the memorandum on hydrogen. It relates to Newfoundland and Labrador and also Nova Scotia, which also has very significant aspirations in this area.

The first step is putting in place a regulatory regime to be able to appropriately regulate offshore wind. Some of these projects are starting with onshore, where there is a regime in place, or one can be put into place relatively quickly by the province. Then there is a federal-provincial offshore regulatory piece that we are working on with both of those provinces right now, and we are looking at ways we can do work even as that progresses.

The target is to be in a position to start to ship hydrogen to Germany by as early as 2025, which is not very far away. The Government of Nova Scotia, in particular, has set very aggressive public targets as to what they would like to see with respect to hydrogen going forward. So it’s an area in which I am working closely with both of those provinces and territories.

More generally, hydrogen is an enormous opportunity also for Western Canada, but it will more likely be hydrogen derived from natural gas, with appropriate carbon capture. It is one of those things that Canada can actually do to help energy security around the world.

Hon. Donna Dasko: Welcome, minister.

The Ring of Fire in Ontario’s James Bay Lowlands region has been identified as a region of critical minerals since the year 2006. It has been repeatedly described as a unique resource and opportunity.

The current pace of development, however, is discouraging. In fact, it’s not at all clear whether that rich region will ever be developed.

I also understand that consultation with Indigenous communities is important — it is, in fact, vital — as are the various environmental and other assessments that must be conducted.

My questions to you are as follows: What will move that project forward? Is there a realistic and actual timetable that you can share with us for the development of the Ring of Fire? If it’s clear in your view that it will not proceed, can the people involved know this sooner rather than later? Thank you.

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you.

I will speak generally and then speak to the Ring of Fire. More generally, we do have work to do to ensure our regulatory processes are able to move at the speed we need to in order for us to have access to the minerals that are required for the energy transition. We need to do that in a manner that is sensitive to the environment — not cutting corners on environmental sustainability — and in a matter that respects our duty to discharge and that respects the rights of Indigenous peoples.

We are working actively within the federal family to figure out ways to do that; there are a number of initiatives under way. We are working directly with most of the provinces and territories under the Regional Energy and Resource Tables to look at aligning those things.

The Ring of Fire, however, is a particularly complex area. Much of it is in peatlands, which are a huge carbon sink. The last thing we want to do when fighting climate change is to make climate change worse. Second, there are legitimate Indigenous concerns in the area that need to be heard and addressed.

There is a process going on in terms of assessing two roads, but those are largely independent of any project; they are for Indigenous communities. There is a regional assessment going on, which should help to enable specific project assessments going forward.

We do not yet have a specific project proposal. A lot of people think there is some project for the Ring of Fire. I know that Wyloo Metals, which holds the rights, is interested in moving forward, but we have not had any project enter the environmental assessment stage. There is the regional assessment going on.

At the end of the day, we are interested in finding pathways through which some portions of that region could be mined in a manner that is sensitive environmentally, but we have to address the environmental concern around the peat. We also have to address the legitimate issues the environmental communities have if we are going to find a pathway forward. That is the work that I am doing with every day.

Hon. Brian Francis: Welcome, Minister Wilkinson. Last October, the CBC reported that few federal public servants are taking part in the Indigenous-related training offered by the Canada School of Public Service, or CSPS. Given their key role in the design, implementation and maintenance of laws, policies and other measures that may adversely impact Indigenous people, those findings are alarming.

Could you please confirm whether you support issuing a directive to make Indigenous-related training mandatory for employees at Natural Resources Canada and all other federal departments and agencies?

Hon. Denise Batters: Minister, one of Canada’s most abundant natural resources are the agricultural products produced by our farmers, but the Trudeau government’s tripling carbon tax threatens their livelihoods. While your government claims that farm fuels are exempt from carbon tax, natural gas and propane are not. Farmers who rely on those fuels to dry their grain and heat their barns see bills in the tens of thousands of dollars. The average $860 carbon tax rebate you promise provides pennies on the dollar.

Canadian farmers are already careful environmental stewards, but they pay the Trudeau carbon tax on fuel, fertilizer and transporting grain and cattle to market, again and again. That drives up the price of food, which, again, affects the farmers as consumers. It also affects the grocery bills of every Canadian, rural and urban.

When will your government axe the carbon tax on all farm fuels and give our farmers and all Canadian consumers a much‑needed break?

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you for the question, senator.

I am from Saskatchewan and used to work for the premier of Saskatchewan. I certainly understand the agriculture sector and some of the concerns that have been raised.

The price on pollution is an important component of fighting climate change, both in terms of reducing emissions and in terms of incentivizing innovation and the development of technologies that can be zero- or ultra-low-emitting. We have put in place a retail rebate, including in Saskatchewan, where 80% of families get more money back than they pay. We have also come forward with a rebate for farm families to try to address the issue you raised, which was not addressed previously, but there is a repayment at this point in time.

It is important for politicians in both chambers of Parliament to really understand that climate change is a threat. It is an existential threat to the future of the human race. It is something that terrifies our children, in terms of the future going forward. It is not a responsible position for any political party to take that simply averts our eyes from the climate crisis. We must have a thoughtful approach, and it should be on the part of all political parties. From our perspective, it shouldn’t be free to pollute anywhere in this country. Putting a price on pollution is an important component of having a credible climate plan that also accounts for economic realities.

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Yes, it is a critical project; I agree with you, senator. It is something that we have been working on actively over the past few years. I have been speaking regularly with Premier Houston about this. My view is that it is critical, and from what he has expressed to me — and I take him at his word — it is a critical project for him.

Obviously, we need to ensure we are doing this in a manner that works for ratepayers, for the province and other provinces that are involved, but that it also works for the federal government from a financial perspective. I do believe there is a pathway to doing that. That is what we are working to define. It is not straightforward or simple, but it is urgent. As I said in response to the previous question, my hope is to have some kind of an agreement in principle in place some time early in the new year.

[Translation]

Hon. Michèle Audette: Minister, I, too, am a proud Innu, Quebec and, to a small degree, Labradorian senator.

Last week, the government participated in the launch of the First Nations National Guardians Network, whose goal is to share expertise and knowledge, in particular about conservation carried out by and for Indigenous communities.

In your view, minister, how can Indigenous guardians support the key elements of your department’s mandate with respect to resource development planning and forest fire management?

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you, senator. I believe the event you’re talking about is COP 15, the 15th Conference of the Parties to the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity. I was there. It was organized in collaboration with the communities, as you said, and with me, the Minister of Natural Resources. I was there for the beginning of this very important conference.

We set up a process to discuss a framework that would enable us to examine the benefits of natural resource development projects, and we are working on that with Indigenous peoples, meaning the Inuit, Métis and First Nations. We need to have those conversations and get their agreement.

I am fully committed to making sure we talk about economic reconciliation, not just services and governance. We have to talk about economic reconciliation so that these communities can have the resources they need to support their people. That is very important.

[English]

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you for the question. Certainly, I think some of these infrastructure issues are critically important as we think about things like critical minerals. Two of the ministers from N.W.T. were here the other day speaking to us about a couple of infrastructure projects that are not dissimilar to what you are talking about. Part of this is about building roads. Part of this is about building transmission lines so that you have access to energy. Part of it is about ports; there is another port issue in the Yukon that is not dissimilar. We are certainly live to and thinking about this.

Of the dollars allocated for critical minerals, $1.5 billion are around infrastructure, so there is money there and in Minister LeBlanc’s area. However, there is also the Trade Corridors Fund, as you said, which is under Transport. I am happy to look at this. I’m not entirely familiar with where it sits from a status perspective, but I am more than happy to look at it and have a conversation with Minister Alghabra.

Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson, P.C., M.P., Minister of Natural Resources: Thank you for the question. As I said before, we are very interested in supporting, in any way we can, our friends in Europe at a time of great stress. That is why we augmented the production and supply of oil and gas through the United States by 300,000 barrels a day and we are on track to achieve that. There will be liquid natural gas flowing from Canada as early as 2024 through the Kitimat plant that is being built by LNG Canada.

On the East Coast, what the Germans have said very publicly — and often to me — is that they need something that could be up and running within three years, and if not, they are not interested. They feel they will be in a position to have fully displaced Russian gas by that time, partly through the transition they are trying to make on an accelerated basis to renewables and hydrogen, and partly through contracts they may secure with others who have the ability.

We have been working. There is really only one project that could meet that timeline. You would need to have an existing pipeline and, ideally, you would have some existing infrastructure. There is such a plant in New Brunswick, but it requires upgrades to the pipeline, some in Canada and through the United States; it runs through Maine and New Hampshire. We have been looking at that and working actively with Premier Higgs on that. If you ask TC Energy, which is the pipeline operator, they are concerned about the ability for the regulatory process in the United States to get approval. It’s not in Canada that it concerns them.

As for the issue around the business case, I think we may have found a way around that, but it costs a lot of money to ship gas from Alberta all the way to New Brunswick. There may be a different funding mechanism where they don’t pay exactly what they would pay from the Gulf of Mexico. We are still working on that, but we should understand that the regulatory issue actually lies with the Americans not the Canadians.

Hon. David M. Wells: Thank you, and welcome, Mr. Wilkinson. In late August, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz came to Newfoundland and Labrador, the province I represent, for an official visit. One of his objectives was to seek contracts for natural gas to replace the gas that he is under pressure to replace that he is getting from Russia. Chancellor Scholz noted that Canadian gas was his first choice, and I’ve heard from others in Europe that Canada is the first choice for natural gas and for oil-alternate energy.

He came to make a deal, minister, and he was shown the door. In fact, Prime Minister Trudeau said at a joint press conference that there has never been a strong business case. Of course, we know that’s not the case. We have also now heard that Germany has signed a multi-billion dollar, 15-year agreement with Qatar on natural gas.

Minister, there is an existing regulatory regime, a market supply and there is a market. Germany is an ally and a CETA trade partner. When can Canadian industry get clarity from your government on these opportunities?

Hon. Colin Deacon: Minister Wilkinson, thank you for being with us here in the Senate.

I’m interested in ways Natural Resources Canada might catalyze greater innovation and market diversification in the use of wood waste. You mentioned the topic earlier. As you know, there are a growing number of compelling use cases for wood waste, whether it be wood pellets, biochar — which sequesters carbon and improves soil health — or other innovative applications.

In Nova Scotia, we were overly reliant on a single use case for wood waste, and that was pulp. As a result, the closure of one pulp mill caused catastrophic consequences and economic hardship for thousands of rural families that were dependent on the sector — despite the high lumber prices of 2021.

What measures is your department considering — like regulatory reforms or incentives — to create innovative and more diverse market opportunities for value-added and climate‑friendly uses of wood waste?

Thank you.