SoVote

Decentralized Democracy

Senate Volume 153, Issue 37

44th Parl. 1st Sess.
April 28, 2022 02:00PM
  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Plett, seconded by the Honourable Senator Carignan:

That the motion be not now adopted, but that it be amended:

1. by replacing the words “June 30, 2022” by the words “May 9, 2022”; and

2.by adding the following after the word “objective” at the end of the motion:

“; and

That, before introducing any motion on the extension or resumption of hybrid sittings of the Senate, the Leader of the Government in the Senate must:

1.table in the Senate:

(a)all opinions and guidelines from public health officials from the federal government regarding in-person meetings in the federal public service;

(b)all opinions and guidelines from public health officials from the Ontario and Québec governments regarding in-person meetings;

(c)a letter from the Clerk of the Senate outlining how the Senate sitting in person only would contravene any opinion or guideline mentioned in points (a) and (b); and

(d)a plan for a transition back to in-person sittings of the Senate as soon as practicable in accordance with the commitment made by the Senate on March 31, 2022; and

2.consult in an open and constructive manner with the leaders and facilitators of all recognized parties and parliamentary groups”.

On debate. Senator Batters.

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Hon. Lucie Moncion: I have a few points I’d like to make with regard to this motion. First, the premise of this motion, which suggests that the only time any work gets done in the Senate is when we are in person in Ottawa, is wrong. A lot of work is getting done, whether we are in hybrid sessions or in person in Ottawa. The premise suggested in some of the speeches made with respect to work in the Senate is, in my view, wrong.

The second comment I wanted to make has to do with modernization, in other words, modern technology. We now know that we can do our banking online, shop online and order a meal online. The pandemic has given us an opportunity to work differently, to use the internet to stay connected to one another.

We have managed to remain productive throughout the pandemic and to continue to do our work, both in the Senate and in committee, as well as the personal work we all do individually. I don’t see how anyone can justify saying that our productivity has gone down.

Perhaps the productivity of some senators has gone down, but that is not the case for most of us. Our productivity has increased as we have organized meetings and continued to see representatives from all of our interest groups. We have also continued to work on bills and have drafted new public interest bills.

In my opinion, our productivity has not gone down, and not being in Ottawa does not make us less productive. We can use modern technology, have access to all our colleagues at the same time and be productive and independent whether we are on site in Ottawa or in the comfort of our own homes, as some like to say. The message seems to be that the only work that counts is work that is done in person, which brings me back to the arguments I just made.

The other thing about the motion is that it gives us one week, roughly 10 days, to meet all the requirements that are associated with this motion. I do not think that 10 days is enough to get all the information being requested. Asking for an extension that would allow us to continue to have hybrid sittings until the end of June seems like a reasonable request to me.

It seems like the May 9 deadline is intended to use up the valuable and limited time we have for debating bills, and to relitigate this motion, which calls on us to once again allow hybrid sittings and meetings. I will be voting against this amendment and in favour of the original proposal. Thank you.

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Senator Boisvenu: Yes, I have a question. May I please be allowed a 30-second preamble? My question is the following. The senator stated that we can be just as productive now as we were before. Here are two examples. The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs used to meet for four to six hours a week; it now meets for two hours a week. The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence used to meet for four hours a week; it now meets for two hours a week. We are therefore spending 30% to 60% less time at committees, where the real work is done. You say that we can be just as productive, but did I not just demonstrate the very opposite of what you said?

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Senator Moncion: Thank you for your question, Senator Boisvenu. If you are talking about productivity, but you are basing your productivity analysis only on the time spent in committee, then it seems as though your premise, or your reasoning, leads you to think that the only work we do is the work in committee. That is unfortunate. You and I both know that over 90% of the work we did on the bill concerning jury members was not done in committee. You are currently working on a series of bills that you want to introduce, and I am doing the same with regard to universities and other issues. That work is not being done in committee.

The work that we do in committee is on bills that have reached the committee stage. Over the past two years, we have done less work in committee but a lot of work in other areas. You, Senator Boisvenu, are an excellent example because of how much work you accomplished, even if it was not in committee or in the Senate. You worked in your office, in Ottawa or back home, and continued to advance your causes. We therefore need to consider that productivity is not necessarily measured only by our speeches, committee meetings or even time spent in person in the Senate.

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Senator Moncion: That is not so, and that is not what I said, Senator Boisvenu.

Also, I would like to strike the “social aspect” from my answer, because I don’t see our work here in the Senate as social work. It’s much more professional and legislative. No, I don’t agree with your statement. What I’m saying is that there is excellent work, important work, necessary work being done in committee, but there is work being done elsewhere too.

[English]

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Hon. Denise Batters: Honourable senators, I rise to speak on Senator Plett’s amendment to the Trudeau government’s motion to once again extend hybrid sittings of the Senate, this time to June 30.

Senator Plett is proposing that the government table opinions and guidelines regarding in-person meetings from several public health and other officials before requesting extension of hybrid Senate sittings. At a time when many provinces are dropping their COVID mandates on things like vaccines and masks, it seems incompatible that our Senate is contemplating meeting in only a hybrid fashion. Senator Plett’s amendment would be a way of determining whether the government’s request for continued hybrid Parliament is actually in keeping with the best contemporary scientific evidence.

Senator Plett’s amendment also establishes:

. . . a plan for a transition back to in-person sittings of the Senate as soon as practicable in accordance with the commitment made by the Senate on March 31, 2022 . . . .

Senators will not be surprised to hear that I am in complete agreement with transitioning back to in-person sittings of the Senate, given that I have delivered speeches on this issue here twice before. I submit that in-person sittings are crucial for us to do our best work here as parliamentarians, and that is what Canadians deserve from us.

Of course, I am dismayed that we are once again discussing extending the deadline for hybrid Parliament at all. We should already have been working on returning to in-person Parliament, as set out in the provisions of the March 31 motion. I suppose I’ve been around here long enough to know better than to expect the Trudeau government to fulfill its obligations.

In any case, just look at all the things that have resumed, even since the last time we discussed hybrid Parliament at the end of March, only a few short weeks ago. Even more provinces have dropped their vaccine and mask mandates. Hockey arenas are routinely filled with 20,000 people. Concerts have resumed. Sting plays the Canadian Tire Centre in Ottawa next week. Even Ribfest will be returning to Sparks Street in early June, and Jurassic Park in Toronto is once again filled with a huge crowd of people celebrating during the Raptors basketball team’s playoff run. All of these places are returning to normal.

Even certain aspects of Parliament have begun to shift. The House of Commons opened its public galleries at the beginning of this week, and its committees have begun to receive visitors. Yesterday, our own Speaker once again introduced guests in the Senate gallery. We can now resume having visitors into our Senate offices for meetings, and stakeholder and lobby groups have resumed holding large receptions both on and off the Hill.

I find this puzzling. We’ve established that it’s safe enough for senators to mix with stakeholders in meetings and receptions, and the public in our offices or in the chamber, and with other senators at receptions or in our respective caucus rooms, but if we’re here in person in the chamber — all of us required to be masked and at least double vaccinated — what’s going to happen? Are we going to combust? The only difference I see is that it is in this chamber that the government is expected to be held accountable, and that is why the Trudeau government wants to avoid being here in person — if you’ll pardon the pun — like the plague.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — a hybrid Parliament is a dull Parliament. An unengaging Parliament won’t and doesn’t receive much pesky media attention, thereby evading public scrutiny — perfect for the Trudeau government, which seems to have so much to hide.

Public health officials have told us all along throughout COVID-19 that as we move through the course of this pandemic we will reach a point where we will have to learn how to live with the reality of COVID, not just hide ourselves away from it. Society is reaching that point. We have lived with COVID for more than two years now. We have listened to the advice on how best to protect ourselves: through vaccines and masks and social distancing and ventilation. I am proudly triple-vaccinated and promote that widely on my social media.

The fact is, the Senate remains one of the very few places left in the country that requires a vaccine mandate and masks for access. Another is airplanes, the primary method of transportation many of us use to travel back and forth to our jobs as senators. Given that, it is curious that the Senate chamber isn’t viewed as one of the safest places to return to in-person work.

Instead, it is as though we’re trying to preserve the rarified Senate “bubble.” Honourable senators, what do we think make us so special? All kinds of people — dentists, taxi drivers, mechanics — are back at work in person, and most have been back for a very long time. All of these people have returned to work using some combination of the protections I’ve just outlined — vaccines, masks, social distancing and ventilation — as they are appropriate and practical. There is no reason the Senate cannot do the same.

The last time I spoke about hybrid sittings, I mentioned that the Senate had published a “return to work” plan for 25% of Senate administration employees. As it turns out, the Senate delayed that “return to work” plan yet again. It was only this week that 25% of Senate administration employees returned to their offices. There still is no “return to work” plan for the other 75%, some of whom have jobs not particularly conducive to remote work. In the private sector, the answer to that would be to return to work in person. Not so in the Senate of Canada.

Downtown Ottawa is still a ghost town. Two years into the COVID pandemic, few federal government workers are yet back at work in person. Government COVID mandates and lockdowns have been devastating to Ottawa’s downtown core. Even a short walk from Parliament Hill, long-standing family-owned businesses have now closed their doors for good, suffering two years of pandemic lockdowns, then weeks of street closures imposed by the city during and after the truckers’ protest.

Infuriatingly, Wellington Street in front of Parliament remains blocked off, for no apparent reason. It’s kind of symbolic of this federal government’s approach on COVID mandates at this point, if you think about it. Everything around this one patch of street has opened back up. No one seems to be sure why the barriers are still there or, really, by whose authority. It impedes freedom of movement through the downtown core. Why? We’re not sure. We all just kind of navigate around it, and it does not seem to serve a useful purpose at this point. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

It’s like government mandates, and it’s also similar to this government’s insistence on hybrid sittings at this point in the pandemic. I look at the text of your motion, Senator Gold, and I wonder: What year are we in? Have we mistakenly been dropped back in March 2020, to the beginning of the pandemic, rather than two years in? Fire up the DeLorean. We’re headed Back to the Future with this one, honourable senators. Hybrid parliamentary sittings are simply not in keeping with where the rest of the world is at with COVID anymore.

When will the Trudeau government finally come clean and admit what they really want is permanent hybrid sittings? So much easier to contain, to control, to keep under wraps. This hybrid sitting motion is the government’s nudge in that direction. It’s a way for the government to keep the Senate on “mute” — to manage it so it doesn’t become too troublesome.

Honourable members can take their cues in the Senate from what we see happening now in the House of Commons. It wasn’t enough for the Trudeau government to forge a coalition majority government with a very willing NDP partner. They’re now bringing in the most draconian of parliamentary motions. If the heat gets too hot for them in the House of Commons, shockingly they’ll be able to just stand up, without notice, and adjourn until the fall, escaping accountability at every turn. This is shameful and not at all surprising that this terrible motion comes just as Justin Trudeau’s “Billionaire Island” vacation resurfaces.

We’ve seen this display from the Trudeau government before. As we like to say out West, “This ain’t my first rodeo.”

The Trudeau government’s dodging of accountability in the Senate may be more subtle, but its effect is the same.

The manner in which the government communicates on the issue of COVID mandates is specifically to avoid accountability as well. Other countries around the world are dropping their COVID restrictions, yet Canada’s federal government continues to act like a helicopter parent. When Prime Minister Trudeau is asked about it, he not only refuses to state any intention to lift Canada’s mandates but can’t even articulate a plan or a time frame to do so. The only thing for which Prime Minister Trudeau can be relied upon is a divisive quote against Canadians who have decided, for one reason or another, not to be vaccinated. After all, if he keeps Canadians divided among themselves, they have less time and energy to devote to holding him and his government accountable. Are you sensing a theme yet?

Prime Minister Trudeau’s government follows his lead. His Public Safety Minister, Marco Mendicino, this week testified before the Emergencies Act parliamentary committee about a fire started in a downtown Ottawa apartment building where the perpetrators were rumoured to be convoy participants. Of course, this claim has been repeatedly exposed as fake, including by the Ottawa Police themselves. But that didn’t deter Minister Mendicino, who is a lawyer and a former prosecutor. Misinformation is useful if it obscures the truth, I guess, and that really is what this Trudeau government is known for. It again distracts from the larger issue — that maybe the government had no real, credible evidence on which to invoke the Emergencies Act — by whipping up resentment against the trucker convoy participants.

This Trudeau government’s affinity for subverting democracy and then hiding behind cabinet confidence should worry us all. It is definitely a well-established pattern. This lack of transparency is even more reason why senators should want to be here in person, to question and challenge the government on the decisions it is making. That is far more effective in person than it is from behind a Zoom screen — and the Trudeau government knows it.

Only yesterday, Minister of Justice David Lametti appeared at the Senate Legal Committee. We were able to have a robust exchange in person and to go back and forth and actually challenge his testimony. It makes for more compelling viewing, and better Parliament, when someone is not continually saying, “You’re on mute” and, “You’re frozen.”

The first few years of my time in the Senate coincided with a time of real soul-searching for this institution. We devoted a lot of time to talking about the Senate, its purpose and its mandate. One of the big areas of focus was how to make the Senate more relevant to the lives of Canadians.

Honourable senators, I think hybrid Parliament diminishes those efforts. We fought to have Parliament broadcast live via video so that Canadians could see the good work that we do in this place. I’m not anxious for the public to tune in to a Senate sitting now, only to see senators reading from a prepared script on Zoom, not really engaging with one another. This should be a chamber of lively debate and discussion — a place where we represent our regions and protect the rights of minorities, where Canadians can see themselves in the debate. I fear that element will be absent in a hybrid Senate.

Honourable senators, I ask that you carefully consider this decision to extend hybrid Parliament. While it might seem like no big deal, or only a matter of convenience, I ask you to consider what path it might put us on in the future in this place. I fear, and I suspect many of us feel, that these continued extensions of the hybrid model will soon morph into something more permanent. What will that mean for the future governance of the Senate? Might we be running the risk of compromising the very characteristics that make the Senate unique? Will virtual Parliament help or hinder government accountability? Does accessing Parliament by Zoom potentially hinder a senator’s independence? What kind of image of the Senate are we portraying to the public through hybrid Parliament, and is that detrimental for the Senate’s reputation in the long run? I think this is the biggest question: Is hybrid Parliament ultimately good for democracy? I say it is not, and I think that is dangerous territory for us to start eroding.

Furthermore — and this brings me back to Senator Plett’s amendment — is hybrid Parliament necessary in the current situation, when health authorities are currently removing mandates? We are at the point in this pandemic where there are ways to manage group activities and still be COVID-safe. Continuing to just shut everything down is not feasible. All parliamentarians, staff and visitors must be at least double-vaccinated even to be in the Parliamentary Precinct, and we must all wear masks when moving freely around the buildings. At a time when most mandates are in the process of being lifted, it seems the Senate is actually one of the safer workplaces to attend in person.

For these reasons, I will be supporting Senator Plett’s amendment and voting against the main motion. Please join me in standing against a further decline of our most important democratic institutions. Thank you.

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Hon. Jane Cordy: Honourable senators, I have a question. Senator Gold, would you also not agree that all leaders met on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of this week to develop the motion that you presented yesterday? All leaders took part in the development of the motion that you presented yesterday. Three of the four leaders, yourself excluded, supported this motion that was brought forward by you to the house yesterday. And all leaders, as I said earlier, participated in the drafting of the motion that was tabled by you on behalf of all of us.

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Senator Cordy: Also, when I was looking at the original motion and the second motion, I got the feeling of a make-work project. It is a rainy day and you are trying to find something for your kids to do, so you tell them to check the internet and get all this information. Would you not agree that all of this information requested is readily available on the internet?

Senator Gold, I also know that we’ve been talking mainly about numbers in Ontario and Quebec because we’re located in Ottawa, but I happened to look for the numbers for the week of April 11 to April 18 in my province of Nova Scotia, because we have to keep in mind that we are travelling. I’m not travelling from Ontario or Quebec. I’m travelling from Nova Scotia. Last week in Nova Scotia, there were 7,508 new cases. That’s an average of 1,073 new cases a day, 84 hospital admissions, 64 people in the hospital and 13 deaths in the small province of Nova Scotia last week. Would you not agree that we have to be aware of not just Ontario and Quebec, but we also have to be aware of situations in the rest of the country?

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Senator Gold: I certainly do agree. Thank you.

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Senator Plett: I think if we listen to Hansard tomorrow, you will find that you clearly used the word “consensus” when you said you had consensus at the leadership table.

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Hon. Leo Housakos: Honourable senators, I rise to speak overwhelmingly in favour of Senator Plett’s amendment.

Honourable colleagues, when the going gets tough, the tough have to get going. In times when our nation is facing an existential crisis such as this, its institutions have to be ready to weather the storm. All of our institutions have to be ready to rise to the occasion, and there is no institution more important in a time of crisis than Parliament, the House, the Senate, our courts, our laws and our governments. They have to show up and provide leadership in these difficult times.

I’ve said this time and time again with regret: I believe that Canadians feel that these institutions — which have been put in place to ensure that democracy functions and that we rise to the challenges we face — have let Canadians down. We’ve seen this in the ever-growing frustration both with the government and with these institutions. We’ve seen it in the protests in the streets across the country and with Canadians who are frustrated because they feel it is tougher than ever before to get by and to put food on the table for their children. It is tougher than ever before to dream of a better future than their parents had.

We are all responsible, given the privileges we have in these institutions, to provide leadership during this time. Leadership is not provided when we have measures that are designed to protect us better than a truck driver, or someone working in a pharmacy or grocery store, or a factory worker.

I mentioned a month ago that I was in Montreal visiting a place called Jack Victor. It’s a great business in the downtown core of Montreal, with 800 employees. Those 800 employees are at work every morning and they put in their 40 hours per week. They are in close proximity, just like the vast majority of workers in this country.

My wife has been getting up every morning for two years to go to the Jewish General Hospital to provide services for the many Canadians who need care with the unfortunate virus of COVID. Yet in this institution — I’ve said it before and I will say it again — our productivity during this time of the most existential crisis facing our country has gone down. Our committees meet only half as often as they did in the past. The output for this government in terms of legislation — forget about COVID — over the last seven years is pitiful. In the last seven years, this chamber has produced the least amount of government legislation in the 153-year history of the Senate. Go and do the research in the library; you will be surprised. However, we did pump out hundreds of billions of dollars in shorter sitting times than ever before in the history of this country.

I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat, colleagues: Each and every one of us, when we make investments to renovate our house or buy a car or a pair of shoes, we sometimes reflect on that harder than on the tens of billions of dollars we’ve churned out of this place in COVID spending — with the government threatening us, saying that we have to stand up for Canadians. Number one, we haven’t been consistent as institutions, and that’s why Canadians are so frustrated. Number two, much of what we’ve done over the past two years is on the verge of leading to historic inflation, which will lead to a historic economic crisis — which, again, this institution will, in part, have to account for.

The government leader rose today and said, “Trust me; this motion is a short-term measure, and it’s not something the government wants to do in perpetuity.” It sounds like the same thing we heard a month ago, when we had the same debate. He says, “We are only going to extend it for a month.” Let me tell you, colleagues, as Senator Plett so appropriately pointed out in his speech, right across this country, health care professionals — the scientists who have been giving advice to the provinces and are the leaders when it comes to providing public health care advice — have been lifting mandates. Every single province, one after another, has been lifting passport mandates and masking mandates. They’re allowing Canadians to congregate. You are absolutely right, senator, Jurassic Park is back and functional, with thousands of people. This afternoon my son is watching a Blue Jays game with thousands of people at the Rogers Centre in Toronto. Canadians are walking into arenas across this country — 20,000 per night — to watch NHL hockey and junior hockey. Our workers are back at work. Our hospitality industry is back at work. Thousands of Canadians are back meeting socially, celebrating Easter, Ramadan and all the other celebrations — yet the Senate of Canada is going to stay pat. We will continue mandates. We will continue to work virtually. As I said, the real problem is not that I don’t like working virtually — I like being in the comforts of my house as much as anyone else — but at the end of the day, our output is just not there, colleagues.

Our committees, the most important work that this institution has done, are just not pumping out the work that we are being paid to do. It has been two years right now that we are sort of ragging the puck on this. I think we should be leading the way because our politicians in this country have been telling Canadians to vaccinate. The quicker we vaccinate, the quicker we will get back to normal. Well, colleagues, we are 83% or 84% double vaccinated in this country. I know people who are quadruple vaccinated. Some Canadians have their fourth dose already. If governments have been telling Canadians to double vaccinate and we will get back to normal, yet we are quadruple and triple vaccinated, then the leadership of this country are saying, “You, the taxpayers, will get back to normal, but not us. We will stay here and continue to work in our reduced capacity.” That doesn’t make sense. As parliamentarians, I think we need to align ourselves with what is going on across the country — not only lead but at least align ourselves with what Canadians are facing on a day-to-day basis.

We have rapid tests. We are all mature, intelligent people. Those of us who are vulnerable should take those extra steps. That’s what is going on right now in society as we learn to live with COVID. I don’t see why, when people who are adapting themselves with those realities, 95 or so senators here in Ottawa can’t do the same. I think if we expect it of Canadians, we should be doing the same thing. There are plenty of rapid tests available. Those of us who are coming to Ottawa are functioning — and more of us have been doing so over the last few months, thank God — and taking the steps to be respectful when we meet, but we need to get back to work. The country, more than ever, needs us to get back to work.

Another part of the debate here that concerns me — and I’ve heard it from Senator Plett in his speech today, but I heard it from a bunch of colleagues over the last few days — is that the Internal Economy Committee did not have deliberations on this issue; it was not discussed at Internal Economy. At the end of the day, it is my understanding — and I’ve been in this place now for a considerable amount of time — that senators run the Senate. If important decisions of this nature — that is, of us working hybrid, or virtually, or whatever the case may be — are not being taken in an open and transparent fashion at the Internal Economy Committee and transcended down to the various caucuses and groups for discussion, there’s a problem. I chaired the Internal Economy Committee for a number of years. The current Speaker chaired it for a number of years. There is a longstanding understanding in this chamber that the Internal Economy Committee is a body of consensus, that the operating body of this chamber works in consultation with the leadership and with its various groups and it takes decisions on a consensus basis. Not only have we gotten away from that principle, which is disturbing, but somewhere along the line the leader of my caucus and myself are unable to understand the driving force behind this decision.

We talk about science. Forget about science. From an administrative point of view, I want to know who took the decision. Was it the government leader in a vacuum? Was it the chair of the Internal Economy Committee in a vacuum? Did they discuss it in a back corridor or in some corner? Senator Gold is looking at me with confusion. I don’t know the answer. Clearly, if we didn’t have an open and transparent discussion at the Internal Economy Committee about this particular motion, where was the discussion had? You can participate in the debate, government leader and shed some light on it, but it’s an important issue. We’ve seen time and time again an erosion in these parliamentary institutions and an erosion when it comes to us holding the government to account. I understand. It is not something executive branches of government like.

We all know that when leaders sit in the opposition benches in the House of Commons, they have all kinds of time for democracy and the use of Parliament and all parliamentary institutions. However, the moment they become prime minister, they think they have a mandate from the people and they shouldn’t be accountable to anyone. I don’t believe that. Forgive me, but I believe we have an important role here. The number one role we have is not only to scrutinize government legislation but also to hold the government to account and to ask tough questions when it comes to mandates, vaccines, COVID relief and aid spending. It is not just a rubber stamp.

I appreciate that the government wants to have a virtual and hybrid Parliament in perpetuity. They can get away with it certainly in the House of Commons because there is a minority government, but nonetheless there is a coalition government right now between the NDP and the Liberals, and they have a pretty good free rein. I like to believe that most members here are genuinely independent and they do believe it is important to hold the government to account, particularly during these moments of existential crisis. It is not just the role of a small group of opposition senators. It is incumbent on all of us because we do have independence in this chamber by virtue of our tenure and the fact that we are not accountable to any prime minister, including the prime minister who appointed the vast majority of you. The truth is, the moment you are summoned to this institution, you are accountable to one person, and that is the Canadian people. I take that oath seriously and I know that majority of you do as well.

When we look at the body of evidence and what is going on across the country right now, mandates are being dropped; Canadians are going back to work. We have the challenge of needing to get the productivity of the nation back to where it was. It is the biggest challenge that faces our economy and our people, including the productivity of this institution.

It is morally important, more than ever before, for us to do our work in a diligent, tangible and safe fashion, respectful of each other and respectful of the challenges that we have. But colleagues, it is crystal clear that we are going into another phase of this pandemic. We have to be ready for it. We have to deal with it. We have to lead the way. But first, we have to catch up and align ourselves with provincial governments, with health care advice and with the rest of the country.

For the reasons that I wanted to outline — I didn’t plan on entering the debate, but I think these are some important points that I wanted to share with everyone — I will be supporting Senator Plett’s amendment. I think it is only logical. I don’t think it is far-fetched. What Senator Plett is really asking for is a week and a half to do the diligent work that it seems to me has not been done by our administrative body in this institution, the Internal Economy Committee, in order to find out if this extreme measure, namely, to go to the end of the month of June, is really necessary. At the end of the day, I don’t see the necessity. Someone is going to have to make a compelling case of why we need to continue to do this. It is not enough to say the House of Commons has done it because, as I said in my argument, the fact that, for political expediency, the House has decided to not be serious about their work, doesn’t necessarily mean that we have any obligation to follow.

I think the amendment from Senator Plett is very reasonable, namely, to do the due diligence that hasn’t been done and, as of May 9, to be able to take a firm decision about us continuing with this hybrid virtual system or deciding to put an end to it with all the facts before us. Thank you, colleagues.

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Senator Gold: Yes, thank you for reminding me of that. We had consensus at the leadership table on the text of the motion, and that is what I was referring to. I went on to say, in response to a more recent question, that I didn’t expect that the motion would necessarily be positively embraced by the opposition. You made your opposition to hybrid very clear. I nonetheless believe that the appropriate thing to do for the Senate and for Canadians is to allow us to vote on the amendment that I proposed and to do so in the context of a hybrid sitting when all senators could participate.

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

Hon. Judith G. Seidman: Honourable senators, I rise today to speak to Senator Plett’s amendment on the motion concerning hybrid sittings in the Senate.

I support this amendment because I value evidence-based decision making. We all may have our own viewpoints and preferences about hybrid sittings or in-person sittings, but it is science that should guide our decisions.

This is what Senator Plett’s amendment is asking for — the data which will provide information to draw the necessary guidelines. Only armed with this data can we be more certain that we are making the wisest decisions.

As an epidemiologist, I take seriously the research — ever-evolving — that informs public health around COVID-19 health protocols and precautions. These are essential tools, always based on science, that provide the input to our decision making, yet are often updated. And these protocols are meant to protect Canadians from the pandemic’s worst outcomes: severe illness and death.

Often, we hear criticism of COVID guidelines because they have changed over time. However, that is the essence of science. In the case of COVID-19, more than two years ago, we started with a novel coronavirus, essentially an unknown quantity.

We have experience with pandemics that could have better informed our decision making. In 2010, the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology conducted a comprehensive review of Canada’s response to the 2009 H1N1 influenza pandemic. As a member of that committee, I had the opportunity to participate in this study.

The final report, Canada’s Response to the 2009 H1N1 Influenza Pandemic, published in December 2010, provided 17 key recommendations to strengthen Canada’s future pandemic preparedness plan. Although the H1N1 pandemic did not have the same global impact as the COVID-19 pandemic, the lessons learned are invaluable.

I would like to reiterate that it is true that scientific research on any given issue evolves over time with an ever-growing body of evidence. It is also true that there are studies that contradict each other. There are always studies that are outliers. But public health cannot afford to wait for science to evolve when delivering effective approaches to detect and manage a pandemic. They have to operationalize in an ongoing way, using the ever-growing cumulative body of evidence that provides the best information we have at the time.

This does not mean that tomorrow or next week will be the same because public health must be nimble enough to continuously update their advice.

During this pandemic, we have seen public health transform their advice repeatedly. At the outset, we were advised that masks were not necessary. However, after more evidence accumulated, we were told that they provided an important layer of protection. We have even received updated information on the types of masks we should use, depending on the circumstance.

Two years ago, we were told to disinfect surfaces because the virus could live on some surfaces for long periods of time. To protect themselves, individuals would even disinfect their groceries. As evidence built, it became clear that we should worry about aerosol transmission as opposed to fomite transmission.

This is an example of how public health works. You must make decisions based on the best available evidence at the time. It is a constant process of evidence-building and probabilities. Frankly, it is rare that we have certainty, yet we have to accept this and make important decisions.

Even now, after more than two years of this novel coronavirus circulating globally, we know that we are still accumulating more uncertainties about COVID-19 — effectiveness of vaccine boosters, length of immunity periods and the infectiousness and deadliness of Omicron and all its variants. What we do see now, though, in cumulative data is that the Omicron variant has less serious health consequences, fewer hospitalizations, fewer cases in intensive care and fewer deaths. We will continue to see updated public health advice as a result.

You may also be hearing now that the case incidence rates in regions across Canada for this sixth wave are flattening. Some say that as much as 30% of the Ontario population, for example, have had Omicron. But we know that these are all estimates because testing has not been consistent. In fact, most of us are using rapid tests now, which are not reported to public health at all.

So the pandemic of today is not the pandemic of last year. Public health officers across the country in every province and territory have been modifying their best advice in accord with changing research and data. But colleagues, there isn’t yet sufficient evidence to support with overwhelming certainty that we are at the end of the pandemic, so we continue to base our decisions on the accumulation of data.

Colleagues, given these crossroads, I do believe there is something that we should add to this amendment. Thus, I would like to propose a subamendment.

As we are all aware, Canada has a Chief Public Health Officer, Dr. Theresa Tam. As the Chief Public Health Officer, she is the federal government’s lead public health professional and has helped to guide us through this pandemic. Dr. Tam’s role is to provide advice to the Minister of Health and the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada on health issues. She also works with other governments, jurisdictions, agencies, organizations and countries on health matters and provides an annual report to the minister on the state of public health in Canada.

Her office and responsibilities require her to be well informed on the latest health data and to provide advice on how this should be translated and operationalized in a practical manner to navigate the waters of this pandemic.

In my view, her advice to us would be invaluable.

My subamendment simply asks that as part of our data collection to inform our current decision making, we invite Dr. Tam to provide us any advice she may have on the risks and timing of the Senate’s return to in-person sittings exclusively. This amendment simply ensures that before making our decision about hybrid sittings, we access the advice of the highest public health official in the country.

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Seidman, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wells:

That the motion in amendment be not now adopted, but that it be amended by:

1. adding, after point (b) in the amendment, a new point (c) as follows:

“(c)a letter from Dr. Theresa Tam, Chief Public Health Officer of Canada, outlining how the Senate sitting in person only would contravene guidelines issued by her office”; and

2.changing the designation of points (c) and (d) in the amendment to points (d) and (e).

On debate.

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, I rise to add my voice to the debate on Senator Seidman’s subamendment and to make some more general comments on the direction of the debate so far.

First of all, I want to thank Senator Plett for his speech, delivered with passion and conviction as we would have expected and for his suggestion for moving forward, and also Senator Seidman for your suggestion to provide another level or layer of that.

All that said, as the Government Representative, I am going to be speaking against this subamendment.

Colleagues, I want to remind us that the process that led us to this place today — or yesterday when I tabled the motion that has now been amended and subamended — was a product of serious discussion preceded by consultations and was informed by both an understanding and a reference to public health input and information, some of which, to some degree, is publicly available. Senator Seidman quite properly pointed out that science is not an exact science, if I can use it in those terms. Witness, for example, the estimations we have to make based upon waste water because we no longer have the capacity to test.

It’s important that we understand what we do know and the limits of what we know. What was informed by the decision to propose the extension of hybrid to June 30 was to be cautious and careful out of consideration for the health and safety of senators, their families and staff. That remains — although we may disagree as to the level of risk. I think we all share that concern, as we should as responsible citizens and parliamentarians.

All groups consulted, negotiated and worked in good faith to reach a text to which I spoke today and which was moved today. I won’t repeat my speech, you can be assured. The text represented an attempt to balance the needs for increased Senate time, committee time and to maintain hybrid for the remaining weeks until June 30. It is a position that was supported and is supported by three of the four groups beyond the Government Representative Office.

I’m not being ideological about this. I’m trying to be practical and I’m trying to be respectful — and have been, as I will always try to be — of the Senate and its authority ultimately to decide how it wants to organize. But I really do think it makes sense at this juncture to consider the importance of not disenfranchising senators. That’s why I still believe that the motion that is put before you, which will take us until the end of June, is the best way to go.

Let us be clear, this is not government policy. The decision to introduce hybrid and to extend hybrid was a decision of the Senate. Indeed, our hybrid model was developed here in the Senate and by the Senate. The health and safety information upon which I relied to come to the conclusion was not provided by the PMO, it was provided by the Senate and the Senate Executive Committee.

If the Senate wants to return to in-person sittings, that’s for the Senate to decide. We’re not going to stand in the way of that. This is not our agenda item. This is what we collectively have decided up to now and I’m encouraging us to continue to do so until we rise at the end of June.

I’m going to vote against this amendment. We’ve spent a lot of time on this. I don’t mean today, but a lot of time. It’s time that we focus on what our job is whether in hybrid or not, whether in committee or in the chamber. We have work to do on legislation and on public policy issues, and I really think the time has come to do so.

Respectfully, to those who propose it, I’m going to be voting against this amendment, and I encourage others to do so as well.

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Will Senator Gold take a question?

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

Senator Gold: No. What I said was that the decision to promote the idea of extending hybrid was made based upon health information that was provided to us by the Senate, not the PMO. Second, that it was a decision that was supported by the leadership of three out of the four groups, and indeed all four groups worked on the motion that was before you.

So what I’m saying to you is that this is clearly a government motion because I undertook, as I did in the past, to make sure that when there is a consensus in the Senate — as I thought there was when I tabled this motion yesterday — that I would facilitate its timely and effective debate and passage as only a government motion could do.

If our rules were different, I quite suspect that the motion might have come forward from some other hands. But if it was a reasonable motion, as I believe the motion is that I put before you, I would support it.

I hope that answers your question.

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

Hon. Denise Batters: Senator Gold, earlier today in your speech about hybrid sittings you were saying you really didn’t want a permanent hybrid sitting situation, yet I think you let the veil slip a little bit near the end of that speech when you said that you were talking about extending to at least the end of June. What is the real answer of when you want to actually extend hybrid sittings until because you definitely said at least until the end of June.

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

Senator Gold: Yes, thank you for pointing that out. It struck me as I was reading it that that was not entirely what I intended.

There is no hidden agenda here. I made it clear — and I’m going to make it clear in response to your question — that the only thing that we are concerned about and should be concerned about is whether or not hybrid should be extended to June 30. It is not the position of the Government Representative Office nor is it the position of this government that this is a smokescreen for anything else.

The focus should be on whether or not, between now and when we expect to rise for the summer break, we can function in a safe and appropriate environment. That’s the position of the government and that’s my position. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify that.

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  • Apr/28/22 2:00:00 p.m.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. Again, let me be clear: I was responding in the context of allegations or insinuations that somehow there was some sort of secret plan here — as Senator Housakos surmised or wondered out loud what meetings might have taken place. The answer is no.

The information on which I based my conclusion that it was appropriate to extend it — and presumably the information upon which the other senators and leaders who supported the prolongation to June — is a combination of things. It’s information from the Senate about the cases in the precinct. It’s evidence that is publicly available in terms of the situation not only in Ottawa or in Ontario, but in other provinces. It is information with regard to what we don’t know, as I said earlier in response to Senator Seidman, that we have to guess how bad the situation actually is based upon extrapolations from waste water data because we’re not testing.

It is the information that was available upon which to make a proper decision.

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