Hon. Mary Coyle: Welcome to the Senate, Minister Guilbeault.

Minister, the Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act was passed by both houses last June. It called for the 2030 Emissions Reduction Plan and the establishment of the Canadian Net-Zero Advisory Body. Could you tell us if we can expect the 2030 Emissions Reduction Plan this month? Would you be able to mention any highlights? Also, could you tell us how you see the Net-Zero Advisory Body working with the planned just transition advisory body?

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you for your question, senator. I would beg to differ with the characterization of how we are moving forward on carbon pricing in this country. We have, in fact, given a lot of latitude to provinces and territories. Of revenues raised through the application of the carbon-pricing system, 100% is being recycled in the province or territory where those revenues are generated. In fact, we’re sending back, including to the people of your province, more money than households are having to pay through the carbon-pricing system.

Provinces can have their own system as long as they are equivalent. That is a very important element. If they’re not equivalent, if they’re not stringent enough, then the federal system applies. Were the Province of Saskatchewan willing to put something on the table that would be as stringent, they could have their own system. Certainly, New Brunswick and Ontario will have to do better, because in 2023 we are putting more stringent regulations in place to ensure that the system is more robust.

Hon. Salma Ataullahjan: Minister, most of the emphasis in your mandate letter is on what you will get rid of to combat climate change. Yet, there is precious little on what you will replace it with.

One of the best ways to get the electricity grid to net zero by 2035 is through nuclear power, an abundant and carbon-free energy source. Yet, in your climate plan I see no indication of what your government is investing in this energy source. While your plan clearly identifies close to $1 billion and more for wind and solar, all that nuclear gets is a mention of an action plan for small modular reactors.

Minister, why is nuclear power — a stable and safe source of carbon-free energy — such a low priority for the Trudeau government?

Hon. Renée Dupuis: Thank you for joining us today, minister. Subclause 2(1) of Bill S-5, which you just introduced in the Senate, proposes adding the following to the preamble of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, and I quote:

Whereas the Government of Canada recognizes that every individual in Canada has a right to a healthy environment as provided under this Act;

Towards Canada’s 2030 Agenda National Strategy, released in 2021, states that the UN’s 17 sustainable development goals for the year 2030 should be implemented, and I quote, “. . . in an integrated manner that recognizes how the economic, social and environmental dimensions of sustainable development are mutually reinforcing . . . .”

These 17 principles recognize, for the first time, that human rights are intrinsically linked to sustainable development to ensure a healthy environment. Minister, why didn’t you add a reference to the 17 principles of sustainable development for the year 2030 —

[English]

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you, senator. As a matter of fact, what we are proposing to do by incorporating the principle of the right to a healthy environment into the Canadian Environmental Protection Act lines up perfectly with the United Nations development goals for 2030. Once the bill is passed, we will set out how this principle of the right to a healthy environment will be incorporated into all of our acts and regulations and how we will be able to deploy this over the next few years. That is exactly what we are working on doing, and even though we may not be referring directly to the 17 goals, this responds to the intent of your question. That is what we are working on.

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: I thank the honourable senator for his question. I would like to refer you to the most recent report of the International Energy Agency, released at the end of 2021. It presents scenarios — you are very familiar with such things, Senator Gignac — that tell us that essentially, according to forecasts, global oil production will peak in 2028 and then drop 4% a year until 2050.

We currently live in a world where we produce about 90 million barrels of oil per day. In 2050, we will be producing only 25 million per day, so there will be a substantial decrease in both production and consumption. Why? We are electrifying our transportation and electricity generation sectors. We are working with businesses in the oil and gas, cement, aluminum and steel sectors to help them decarbonize and reduce their dependence on fossil fuels. This is happening in Canada and also in other parts of the world, like Europe, the U.S., South Korea, China and India. This idea that we will need more oil in the future goes against the scenario envisioned by global experts.

[English]

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you, senator. I think I answered that question earlier when I said that my government is supporting research and development in various non-emitting sectors, including nuclear. As I said, governments do not decide which technologies are going to make it or not make it on the market. Markets decide which technologies are going to make it.

We are supporting a whole range of new technologies in terms of research and development, but we are not subsidizing the production of said energy. This is done by provinces and territories in terms of development. But we are putting in place a framework to ensure that non-emitting technologies play a more important role in our energy portfolio, and that’s what we’re doing.

[Translation]

Hon. Mary Jane McCallum: Honourable senators and minister, my home community of Barren Lands First Nation and 16 other Manitoba First Nations are connected to the provincial highway system by a winter road network that is open for only a few short weeks each year.

This once-a-year lifeline is essential for shipping truck loads of fuel, housing and construction materials, food and dry goods that must last until next year’s winter road season. Climate change is resulting in the winter roads opening later and closing earlier each year with the winter roads this year not opening until mid‑February and expected to close by March 15.

Will the minister please tell northern Manitoba First Nations what concrete action the minister is taking, as per your mandate letter, alongside the Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada ministers to work in partnership with First Nations to chart collaborative strategies to adapt to the impacts of climate change?

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you for the question, senator. In fact, that work has already started. We are working on building the first-ever National Adaptation Strategy. It’s not a federal adaptation strategy. It’s a National Adaptation Strategy. We had five tables of experts last year that were looking at various elements of adaptations such as infrastructure, health and emergency response. These tables were not led by the federal government. We were there, but they were led by experts from across the country. Since the beginning of the year, we started engaging with Indigenous communities, with provinces and territories as well as with municipalities and a whole range of other stakeholders so we can build in more resilience and be better prepared to face the impacts of climate change, which you rightly pointed out are happening two to three times faster in the North than elsewhere on the planet.

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you. We have spoken about this in the past. I couldn’t agree with you more. You may remember that as Heritage Minister, for the first time ever, I created two advisory bodies to the Minister of Heritage, one being with artists and arts organizations to see how the federal government can work with the arts and culture sector across the country, both to help Canadians better understand environmental issues, climate change and sustainability and also to work in partnership with these organizations to help them reduce their environmental and carbon footprint. So that work has started.

Environment Canada will also be part of helping those organizations make the transition and work with them so their voices can help us reach more and more Canadians on these important issues.

[Translation]

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you, senator. I wouldn’t say we’re against the idea of autonomy for the energy sector. In fact, we’re working on strengthening our country’s energy autonomy. As I said to one of your colleagues earlier, I’m not the one saying that oil production will peak in 2028. That’s from the International Energy Agency, which many consider to be one of the most credible organizations in this area. I could mention the report by our energy regulator, which says Canada’s oil production will peak in 2032, not 2028.

I agree with you that we are going to keep using oil for quite some time. However, what seems very clear according to the experts is that oil production will decrease year after year. We are currently decarbonizing the transportation and electricity generation sectors. We’ll have a net-zero electricity grid by 2035. We are working with companies in the aluminum sector to produce aluminum with virtually no GHG emissions. We are working with steel companies too. As a result, our need for fossil fuels will shrink over time.

[English]

Hon. Rose-May Poirier: Honourable senators, my question concerns the conditions of Parks Canada real estate assets including buildings, forts and bridges. An answer received this morning to a written question on the Order Paper states:

Based on 2021 asset data, 26 per cent of Parks Canada’s assets are in good condition; 43 per cent are in fair condition, and 31 per cent are in poor or very poor condition.

As of September 2018, a report found that the cost to fix accessibility issues for disabled visitors was about $428 million. The answer received today disputed this figure but also admitted that Parks Canada doesn’t track its investments that support accessibility.

Minister, do you have a plan to repair Parks Canada real estate assets and to improve accessibility for all visitors?

Hon. Bernadette Clement: Good afternoon, minister.

[English]

My question involves municipalities. As we have seen in the last number of years, cities and municipalities are often the first responders in terms of crisis; crisis which often is related to climate change and has impact on critical infrastructure often owned and operated by municipalities.

What plans do you have to make sure that municipalities are full partners from the outset of these emergencies? If you could speak around full, clear communications with municipalities, that would be greatly appreciated.

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: As you know, energy is not within Environment and Climate Change but within Natural Resources Canada.

That being said, we have ongoing conversations with our European friends and colleagues to see how we can help them as they transition quickly away from Russian oil and gas. As you may know, we don’t have right now an SMR Canadian technology that is up and running. There’s research and development happening, but that technology is not ready to be deployed commercially and it therefore cannot be exported to other countries. But the federal government is subsidizing research and development in that sector.

If you want more specific information, you should address your question to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you for that question. I saw that letter from those scientists and experts. I know and respect many of them.

That being said, we are going to need this technology, not just for the oil and gas sector, but for the cement sector and probably for the steel sector because we will not be able to reduce our emissions fast enough to avoid global average temperatures from surpassing 1.5 degrees Celsius compared to pre-industrial levels.

Maybe if we had started not just in Canada but everywhere around the world — and a few countries did — but if we collectively had started tackling climate change 25, 30 years ago, like some of us have been calling for, maybe we wouldn’t need it, but we are going to need it. I do not think, and no one thinks that the federal government alone should invest in that technology.

We’ve committed to have a just transition, meaning that we are going to work with every region of this country, every sector, to help them decarbonize their operations. It includes steel. It includes cement. It also includes oil and gas. We’re not going to abandon the sector and say, well, you deal with this on your own while we’re ready and willing to help all the other sectors.

[Translation]

Hon. Steven Guilbeault, P.C., M.P., Minister of Environment and Climate Change: Thank you for your question, senator. Erosion is obviously linked to rising sea levels, which is one of the most obvious and well-documented impacts of climate change.

We are working with the Department of Transport and with Infrastructure Canada to develop Canada’s first national climate change adaptation plan, which includes a section specifically on infrastructure.

Solutions do exist, and sometimes they fall within the federal government’s jurisdiction, sometimes that of the provinces or municipalities. That is why we want to work with all levels of government and other interested parties who have some knowledge of the issue in order to move towards adaptation.

It is clear that when it comes to climate change adaptation, the federal government can’t do everything. That’s why we need to work in partnership, as we are doing with the B.C. government. After the floods in that province, we created a joint committee made up of several departments, from both levels of government, that are responsible for matters related to transport, infrastructure, the environment and natural resources.

We are hoping to replicate this across the country, so that Canada is better prepared to deal with the impacts of climate change.

[English]

Senator Bellemare: My second question is about the estimated impact of hybrid meetings on the Senate and committees. If I understand correctly, our hybrid meetings and the investment in these telecommunication procedures may have led to a reduction in expenses? Does this mean it is actually costing less, not more? I would like to hear your comments on that.

[English]

Senator Marwah: Thank you for the question. I would remind the senator that the numbers that you see are from budget to budget. There are no actuals in it. The savings take place in the actuals. And there are substantial savings both last year, the year before and we expect in the coming year.

That’s why you see the numbers the way they are. The actuals are substantially lower than these numbers.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, we did call for an adjournment earlier. There was clearly some scrambling going on all morning. It hadn’t been finished when Senator Gold presented his motion.

I saw there was only one avenue open for us at that time, and that was to call for a bell so that we could continue talking about the things we had been talking about. That happened very quickly after we suspended.

Your honour, if it’s all right with the chamber, if the chamber would give me leave, I would withdraw the motion to adjourn and would be happy to continue debate and, hopefully, be able to hear from Senator Gold.

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Gold, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Gagné:

That:

(a)pursuant to subsection 62(1) of the Emergencies Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 22, a special joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons be established to review the exercise of powers and the performance of duties and functions pursuant to a declaration of emergency that was in effect from Monday, February 14, 2022, to Wednesday, February 23, 2022, including the provisions as specified in subsections 62(5) and (6) of the act;

(b)the committee be composed of four members of the Senate, including one senator from the Opposition, one senator from the Independent Senators Group, one senator from the Progressive Senate Group, and one senator from the Canadian Senators Group, and seven members of the House of Commons, including three members of the House of Commons from the governing party, two members of the House of Commons from the official opposition, one member from the Bloc Québécois and one member from the New Democratic Party, with three chairs, of which the Senate chair shall be a senator from the Independent Senators Group and the two House chairs shall be from the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party;

(c)in addition to the chairs, the committee shall elect two vice-chairs from the House, of whom the first vice-chair shall be from the governing party and the second vice-chair shall be from the official opposition party;

(d)the four senators to be members of the committee be named by means of a notice signed by their respective leader or facilitator (or their respective designates), and filed with the Clerk of the Senate no later than 5:00 p.m. on the day after this motion is adopted, failing which, the leader or facilitator of any party or group identified in paragraph (b) who has not filed the name of a senator with the Clerk of the Senate, shall be deemed to be the senator named to the committee, with the names of the senators named as members being recorded in the Journals of the Senate;

(e)the quorum of the committee be seven members whenever a vote, resolution or other decision is taken, so long as one member of the Senate, one member of the governing party in the House of Commons and one member from the opposition in the House of Commons are present, and the chairs be authorized to hold meetings, to receive evidence and authorize the publishing thereof, whenever five members are present, so long as one member of the Senate, one member of the governing party in the House of Commons and one member from the opposition in the House of Commons are present;

(f)changes to the membership of the committee on the part of the Senate be made in accordance with rule 12-5 of the Rules of the Senate, provided that any new members or participating senators take the oath of secrecy pursuant to paragraph (g) of this order before participating in proceedings;

(g)pursuant to subsection 62(3) of the act, every member and person employed in the work of the committee, which includes personnel who, in supporting the committee’s work or a committee member’s work, have access to the committee’s proceedings or documents, take the oath of secrecy as set out in the schedule of the act;

(h)every meeting of the committee held to consider an order or regulation referred to it pursuant to subsection 61(2) of the act be held in camera, pursuant to subsection 62(4) of the same act, and the evidence and documents received by the committee related to these meetings not be made public;

(i)for greater certainty, the chairs may move motions and vote on all items before the committee, and any vote resulting in a tie vote shall mean that the item is negatived;

(j)all documents tabled in the Senate pursuant to the act since February 21, 2022, be referred to the committee;

(k)until the committee ceases to exist or on Thursday, June 23, 2022, whichever is earlier,

(i)where applicable, the provisions contained in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of the order adopted by the Senate on February 10, 2022, respecting senators on standing joint committees, shall apply to senators on this committee, and the committee shall hold meetings in person where necessary to consider any matter referred to it pursuant to subsection 61(2) of the act; and

(ii)senators, members and departmental and parliamentary officials appearing as witnesses before the committee may do so in person, as may any witness appearing with respect to any matter referred to it pursuant to subsection 61(2) of the act;

(l)the committee have the power to:

(i)meet during sittings and adjournments of the Senate;

(ii)report from time to time, including pursuant to the provisions included in subsection 62(6) of the act, to send for persons, papers and records, and to publish such papers and evidence as may be ordered by the committee;

(iii)retain the services of expert, professional, technical and clerical staff, including legal counsel;

(iv)appoint, from among its members such subcommittees as may be deemed appropriate and to delegate to such subcommittees all or any of its powers, except the power to report to the Senate and House of Commons; and

(v)authorize video and audio broadcasting of any or all of its public proceedings and to make them available to the public via the Parliament of Canada’s websites; and

(m)a report of the committee may be deposited with the Clerk of the Senate at any time the Senate stands adjourned, and that any report so deposited may be deposited electronically, with the report being deemed to have been presented or tabled in the Senate; and

That a message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that house accordingly.

Hon. Diane Bellemare: I have a question for Senator Marwah. I would like to hear your thoughts on some of the figures. I was a bit surprised when I looked at the tables.

Before that, however, I would like to hear your thoughts on the size of the International and Interparliamentary Affairs budget compared to the Senate committees budget. I thought the Senate Committees Directorate budget was larger than the International and Interparliamentary Affairs budget.

Can you briefly explain the substance of those differences? That is my first question.

[English]

Senator Marwah: Thank you for the question, Senator Bellemare. On the Senate committee budgets, they are exactly at the level they were pre-pandemic and that’s $2.3 million. Those are the numbers and the increases because, as I mentioned, we are taking back the committee budgets to pre-pandemic levels, assuming that committees will be able to operate fully and be functional for the balance of the year.

On the international and parliamentary affairs, keep in mind that those numbers are not just conferences, they include a whole bunch of other items, such as our share of the Senate of the IIA activities. As you know, we take 30% and the total cost is around $1.4 million.

Then we have ongoing employees, around 10 employees, for a total cost of $1.2 million, the contributions to parliamentary associations of around half a million. And then, of course, we have the additional conference this year of the Assemblée Parlementaire de la Francophonie of $328,000 which is going to take place, approved by Internal Economy Committee, in October of last year.

Those are the major items in comparison of the two categories, senator.

[Translation]