Senator Plett: I have one supplementary, if I could, Your Honour, but, as I said earlier, there are a lot of people who want to ask questions, so I’ll go on the list for a little later.

Senator Gold, you will excuse some of us if we just simply don’t believe the rhetoric that we are being given by the government both in the other place and here.

On Saturday, the Minister of Public Safety said at least 76 bank accounts had been frozen under the Emergencies Act. This action took place before the House of Commons and the Senate — before the House of Commons and the Senate — had the opportunity to weigh in on whether this instance of invoking the Emergencies Act is necessary.

Yesterday afternoon, David Akin of Global News reported new information he received from Public Safety Canada that 208 financial products have been frozen. Senator Gold, you referred to that in your speech as well, and you seem to think that is not really significant and that people can somehow get these unfrozen in due course. We all know it could take weeks and even months to get that done, and somebody cannot move; somebody cannot operate.

Leader, what are the specific guidelines, the very specific guidelines — not the government thinking somebody may have done something nefarious. What are the specific guidelines being used to determine if a bank account should be frozen? When we freeze the Mafia’s bank account, we have to get a court order; you can’t just freeze their bank account. When you have a murderer out on bail, you don’t freeze their bank account. We have people who are avoiding taxes; you don’t freeze their bank accounts without court orders.

So what are the specific guidelines or criteria that are being used to determine if a bank account should be frozen, as well as the guidelines or criteria being used to determine which type of accounts or financial products can be seized?

Senator Gold: Thank you. There are a number of questions that you have asked. With regard to the very first, the act is in force the minute it is proclaimed, but unlike the War Measures Act, Parliament is required to confirm within the time, and that is what we are seized with. The nature of an emergency is such that you have to respond to the emergency. The unique and appropriate measures set out in the Emergencies Act, passed in 1988 by the Mulroney government, is such that it provides, unlike the War Measures Act, for democratic oversight and judicial review.

With regard to your comment about bank accounts, I was trying to be as up to date as possible. Yes, there have been 200 or so bank accounts frozen. I don’t take any of them lightly, but they do represent a tiny proportion of the number of donations and therefore potential bank accounts that have been implicated.

As I will repeat, the focus is on those who actively participated and are continuing to participate in either the funding or the support of illegal activities as of February 15. The banks and police authorities are entitled to share information, and the banks, as they have done in other circumstances, are required to review their accounts to ensure that the monies that are there are not being used to fund and support illegal activities proscribed or prohibited under the act.

The difference between this situation, colleagues, and any others is that we are dealing with a national emergency where the security of Canada is at risk, where funds, whether Canadian or American, are being used to support and maintain a movement that, as I have done my best to explain and as the government explains in the document that was tabled yesterday, undermines the security of Canada, the security of Canadians and our economy, and that cannot otherwise be dealt with by ordinary means and that requires temporary measures to address the emergency.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Will the government leader take a question?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, I think you will agree that the country has never been at a lower stage in our history than it has been over the last few weeks. I listened to your speech very attentively. My questions are as follows. Would you not agree that we have had many protests in the history of this country, many protests that were not on the scale of this but a lot more violent than this? And yet we’ve never seen any prime minister refuse to dialogue, refuse to speak to these frustrated Canadian citizens, Canadian taxpayers. On the contrary, instead of speaking to them, he spoke down to them.

Would you also agree that it is the responsibility of the Prime Minister to be measured when there are frustrated mobs out in the streets who are not happy with their government, not to call them names, not to stoke the flames of division, as he seems to do on a regular basis? I have been around politics for a long time. I have seen many prime ministers and governments use wedge issues, but I have never in my life, in my 37 years of active politics, seen a prime minister double-down, triple-down, go to any limits rather than to calm the situation.

At the end of the day, and I saw it in your speech today, we have seen the Prime Minister on a couple of occasions call protesters in this country — taxpayers, Canadian citizens, marchers with those swastikas — defenders of Nazism. He has used those terms. He stood up in the House of Commons and he actually proclaimed to a child of Holocaust survivors, a member of Parliament, duly elected, that she is a defender of the swastika. He said that in the House of Commons. She marches. You and the opposite benches who “stand with people who wave swastikas.”

I’m allowed in debate, as you know, Senator Downe, to make my point.

Senator Downe: You are up on a question.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your comments and for the question.

I did not say and am not asserting anything of the sort. The fact is, and it is a matter of public record, that — not only at the beginning of this protest in Ottawa but, indeed, even through the course of it — there were representations by people with an expression —

It is a matter of public record, if I may continue, that at the beginning, and even to the end, there was a display of signs that were intimidating, harassing, racist, ugly and unacceptable.

To your question, I do not agree with your characterizations of the Prime Minister’s actions. I’m really trying hard, honourable senators, to be factual, clear and not get drawn into what is clearly an anger with the Prime Minister, a frustration with this government and legitimately partisan rhetoric from others.

I’m not going to talk about what it must feel like to a father to be looking at signs — and I won’t repeat the ugliness of some of the signs — calling for him or describing him. That’s not what I want to say.

I simply want to say that the Prime Minister and the government took very seriously its obligations under the law, thought long and hard about whether or not this crisis could be managed without invoking the Emergencies Act — consulted, reviewed, took advice from intelligence and police officers — and reluctantly came to the decision there was no other way to resolve this crisis.

With regards to your question about the tone or measure, actions speak louder than words, honourable senators. The actions on the ground in Ottawa, the intimidation of health care workers, of people of colour, of people wearing masks, the need to provide police protection for ordinary citizens of Canada, is not a measured response to COVID-19 restrictions or mandates.

The measures put in place on the ground, not in the abstract but on the ground by the Government of Canada to address this, were measured, proportionate. We saw this with our own eyes here in Ottawa.

To your question, honourable senator, no, I do not agree with your characterization of the Prime Minister’s actions. The Government of Canada stands convinced that the measures that it reluctantly took were necessary to secure the peace, order and good government of Canada.

Senator Housakos: Senator Gold, I would appreciate it if you stop always belittling questions from the opposition as partisan. We have as much right to partisan questions as you have the right to partisan answers. That is what we do in parliament. Can we cut this nonsense about what we do is more partisan and somehow what you do is God’s work here? It has to stop at some point. There has to be some respect.

You made an inference that somehow my questions are partisan in tone, and you do that constantly. Your answers are partisan in tone, Senator Gold. Excuse me, but I’m entitled to that opinion.

Furthermore, I am also entitled to my opinion that these protesters have been — every single time we have had protests in this country, you have a group of extremists that try to tag along. That is what has happened in this case. Again, for a Prime Minister to smear everybody with one brush and call these protesters, millions across Canada, Nazis, which he did, and “people who wave swastikas,” is categorically false.

I do not agree with your premise, because I took the time last week to walk up and down and speak to protesters. They went out of their way to be measured in their protest.

My next question, Senator Gold, has to do with your speech where you said the Emergencies Act only affects these particular protesters, and it does not affect all other Canadians.

Last time I checked, in the last two days to get past military-style checkpoints here in Ottawa to get to my job here, I had to provide ID. I had to provide proof of exclusion to the police. Who determines that? Who is giving that list to the police at those checkpoints of who has the right to that exclusion to enter the downtown Ottawa area?

I remind everybody the downtown Ottawa area includes Parliament Hill. Maybe it has gone absent to parliamentarians here, but this is the first time in the history of this country that the Parliament Hill of Canada has been closed to Canadian citizens; never before.

When Parliament was under attack a few years ago — under attack, where we had a violent attack — the Speakers at the time refused to shut down Parliament Hill, with all kinds of pressure from the RCMP. We said it is a fundamental right for Canadians.

So don’t say in your speech that the measures only affect the protesters. It affects every citizen. Anybody who wants to come to Parliament Hill today to speak to their parliamentarians about what is happening in Ukraine, or anywhere else in the country, they can’t. So don’t say in your speech it only affects the protesters. It affects each and every Canadian who wants to come here to protest on Parliament Hill.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. Lawyer to lawyer: The act and the membership set out does not limit the number of members, whether of the House or the Senate, to the minimum requirements that are set out in terms of representatives of parties. This is standard statutory interpretation doctrine. The government’s position is clear that a proper, literal and contextual reading of this act does not preclude the naming of senators or, indeed, members of the House that do not otherwise fall within the minimum set out. For that reason, the position of the government is that the act — as it is written, even though it was written in 1988 — does not preclude the appointment of at least one member of every recognized group in the Senate.

Senator Gold: As the descendant of someone from Ukraine — and I know I speak for all of us — we stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine. For as long as the Emergencies Act remains in force, one of the tools is to designate certain areas as off limits other than for those working or residing in the area. We’ve already seen that the areas have been adjusted, I think notably around the ByWard Market.

So I cannot predict, Senator Batters, on Tuesday what the situation will be around the Parliamentary Precinct on Friday or Saturday. What I can say is that all those Canadians, whether of Ukrainian origin or other, should use whatever means they have — a telephone, social media and indeed the ability to come and protest peacefully in Ottawa — but for so long as the measures are in place to protect the Parliamentary Precinct from the return of the illegal protests, all Canadian citizens have to comply with the legal requirements that are in place now. I hope they will be confirmed in this chamber, but we all hope they will not last for a second longer than necessary.

Hon. Marty Deacon: Honourable senators, before I ask my question, I want to share that earlier this morning I had a chance to have breakfast with many of our police officers to thank them. Their information and their insight — they were in this journey — has been quite enlightening for the debate we are having today.

I would like to back up, take a breath and go back to maybe seven days ago. I would like to dig a little deeper into the early stages that built us to recommending the Emergencies Act.

Government Representative, are you aware of which levels of our national security apparatus or others were consulted and listened to when the government was considering the invocation of the Emergencies Act? In other words, what sectors were at the table before it went to premiers and ministers?

Senator Gold: Honourable senator, thank you for your question. You’ll permit me to pause for a second as I consult the documents that the government has already provided.

As the government has stated on a number of occasions, honourable colleagues, the decision to invoke the act was not taken lightly. It was taken after a series of engagements, both with law enforcement, with the intelligence community with whom it is in regular contact as well as with municipal and provincial authorities. Furthermore, it was considered and debated seriously in three separate meetings of a special cabinet committee focusing exclusively on crisis issues such as we’re facing.

Because I don’t know the information that a specific agency would have shared, and it wasn’t shared with me because I don’t have the clearance to receive that kind of information, it is nonetheless the case that the government was informed by all of the law enforcement and intelligence services upon which it relies in matters like this. Combined with its own consultations with political instances, it came to the conclusion that there were reasonable grounds to believe these measures were necessary.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for that. I’m really trying to understand those early stages. I appreciate that.

As we move and progress forward, will the government be relying strictly on advice from local law enforcement when deciding to revoke the EMA or are these national security and intelligence agencies becoming increasingly involved as this crisis drags on?

Senator Gold: Again, senator, thank you for your question. I think the fairest way that I can answer it, and the most transparent way I can answer it, is that I’m assured and I can advise this chamber that the government is monitoring the situation and consulting with all of the institutions and organizations that it has been consulting with literally on an hourly basis. The objective of the government at this stage of the emergency, seven days into it, is to determine when it is safe and prudent to revoke the Emergencies Act.

The government has been advised — and some of this is on the public record — from police, the police chiefs and associations that it is not the time yet. The government has been advised that more time is needed for law enforcement to complete the work that it has done, to make sure that there is not a return whether to blockages of our borders, sieges of our cities and the like.

As the government has said on many, many occasions, as soon as the government concludes that the emergency no longer exists that requires these measures, they will be lifted.

Hon. Elizabeth Marshall: Senator Gold, thank you very much for your opening remarks.

You were saying that the government is responsible for the security of the nation, but they went from tolerating the protesters over a three-week period to invoking the act. It was a big step. They went from doing practically nothing or what seems to be doing nothing to invoking the act. We all knew the protesters were coming. Probably in mid-January we were aware they were coming to Ottawa, and there was nothing really done.

These threats that you spoke about in your opening remarks, you said they were too numerous to mention and they didn’t happen overnight. You even said yourself that they were on their way for weeks, but it seems like nothing was done.

We have received general explanations as to the thought process that went into invoking the act. But this is a serious step that we’re contemplating here today. What exactly happened that the government decided to invoke the act? Did it seem like a good idea at the time? Did something specific happen? For three or four weeks, it seemed like there was nothing happening and we were just tolerating it. In interviews, ministers were just saying, “We want the protesters to go home.” So what happened? Be specific. I know you’re giving us generalities, and I think someone said earlier, “trust us, trust us.” What happened that made the government decide to invoke the Emergencies Act?

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I won’t belabour the point to repeat some of the things I said.

We live in a federal country. The City of Ottawa is under municipal jurisdiction as far as Wellington Street is concerned. In terms of the highways, it is the jurisdiction of the Province of Ontario. And the federal government has jurisdiction. What happened was a series of events that led to a situation being out of control, a situation where local authorities — and that includes the provincial authorities — were simply incapable of responding effectively. There will be time in the processes set out in this act to look more comprehensively at what could have been done differently, how the police might have acted differently, how the province might have acted differently and how the federal government might have acted differently. But three weeks ago, the federal government and the Parliament of Canada did not have the tools to assist local police to get the job done. The Emergencies Act provided tools that no level of government would have otherwise been able to use, whether broadening the requirements of reporting to FINTRAC vis-à-vis the funding or providing other tools like directing tow truck operators to clear the streets — measures which were not invoked by any other level of government. Yet the result of this was to keep this city at siege.

As I’ve tried to explain, the federal government was in regular consultation all the way through the beginnings of this protest and tried to do its best to support and did, in fact, provide support through the RCMP and other local police. Unfortunately, it reached a situation that had become simply impossible for local authorities, using the tools that they had at their disposal or that were provided at their disposal by their provincial governments, to manage the situation. That’s why the government acted. It wasn’t doing nothing; it was providing ongoing support. It was an ongoing dialogue in all of the relevant instances. But it reached a point where it affected the government as a whole, and it is the role of the federal government to step in under those circumstances.

Senator Marshall: It wasn’t the tools that I was concerned about with regards to having the police come in and provide assistance. What I’m focused on is the intelligence. The convoy started around January 20 or January 23. Why didn’t the government know that there were threats then? If there are threats, why didn’t they know then? Why did it take until the middle of February to know that there were threats serious enough that they have to invoke the Emergencies Act? That is the question I would like to have answered.

Since it took them so long to figure it out, how much confidence can we have in regard to them invoking the act and also deciding when it should come to an end? Those are the concerns that I have. Could you address that issue with regard to the intelligence, the assessment of the threat and why the government appeared to be so late in assessing this monumental threat or numerous threats that they’re talking about?

Senator Gold: That is an assumption. With respect to Senator Marshall, that is not correct. It is not correct to assume the government was not aware of the threats or made aware of the threats, nor is it correct to assume that the government didn’t share its concerns about the threats. It’s equally clear — as we all know and as I stated in response to an earlier question — that I cannot and the government cannot and should not share the intelligence it may have received that helped inform their decision. That goes without saying.

Again, all of the circumstances, all of the successes, failures or actions taken that led us to this unfortunate place will and must be reviewed, and they will be reviewed under the terms of the act as is appropriate in a democratic country such as Canada.

Senator Gold: This is an important question dealing with an important democratic instrument. My understanding is that the constitution of the committee will require a motion in both houses of Parliament, as is the case for the standing up of special joint committees.

I am regularly in touch with my counterpart. Obviously, I’m not going to share those discussions, but my understanding is that my counterpart Minister Holland is in discussions with his counterparts in the House vis-à-vis the composition and process for this. It was only last night that the House voted to confirm, and I’m not yet aware that an understanding has been reached in a minority House between all the parties in the House as to how their representation would be constituted.

I have shared with this chamber the government’s position vis‑à‑vis the Senate, at least in terms of who should have at least one seat, but the discussions are ongoing. I, like you and the government, want to get this up and running as quickly as possible. It’s an important institution to ensure democratic accountability. As soon as I know more, I will report it.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. This is not just about whether existing measures could have been effectively deployed to deal with the crisis in Ottawa. Even though the City of Ottawa declared a state of emergency and the Province of Ontario then followed suit, the fact is that the police were unable to manage the situation on the ground, even with reinforcements. The measures that were taken after the state of emergency was declared — those regarding funding and the reporting of financial information, the ability to designate secure areas and to force towing companies to do the work they did not want to do, since laws don’t exist for that — were necessary because the municipal, provincial and police administrations were unable to manage the situation effectively, regardless of all the powers they theoretically have. The criteria of the act were met, and that is why the Government of Canada deemed it was appropriate to invoke the act and declare a state of emergency.

Senator Gold: There are several aspects to my response. First, as I said in my text and in responding to other questions, there were powers that neither the Government of Ontario nor the Government of Canada had to be able to remove and move the trucks involved in the blockades in order to reopen the bridge. That required support from tow truck operators from Michigan.

Just as importantly, it is true that the Government of Ontario took action on this issue. I do not want to speculate, as this was the topic of discussion for quite some time, on the possibility that the government would proclaim the Emergencies Act. I do not want to speculate on the possible repercussions for the people who were on the Ambassador Bridge. It is undeniable that the Province of Ontario did not do much to provide support to the local police forces to ensure that they could take action. Tools were deployed, we saw that here in Ottawa, that did not exist in provincial legislation nor in municipal bylaws, tools that were necessary for ending this blockade and illegal occupation here in Ottawa.

[English]

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I’ll go right to the question, not the comment about who supported it.

All I said in my speech, senator, was that people may be preoccupied and worried that future uses of the Emergencies Act may target other groups, and I mentioned Indigenous protests or environmental activists. The fact remains that if violent actions threatening the security of Canada cannot be dealt with effectively by existing laws or institutions, then and only then would at least one aspect of the underlying rationales for the Emergencies Act be invoked. If, in fact, a situation arose, regardless of who was committing the violent acts, and it met the criteria of the act — again, not simply that it was unlawful. We have laws against crime. Not simply that it was violent. We have laws against violent crimes. But that such actions that cannot be effectively addressed by the laws in the jurisdictions that apply — then and only then would a government have the right to consider whether or not the Emergencies Act would be applied and if it has reasonable grounds, as the government believes it has in this case, would an emergency be proclaimed. It would then trigger the same kind of democratic process that we’re engaged in right now.