Senator Gold: As the descendant of someone from Ukraine — and I know I speak for all of us — we stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine. For as long as the Emergencies Act remains in force, one of the tools is to designate certain areas as off limits other than for those working or residing in the area. We’ve already seen that the areas have been adjusted, I think notably around the ByWard Market.

So I cannot predict, Senator Batters, on Tuesday what the situation will be around the Parliamentary Precinct on Friday or Saturday. What I can say is that all those Canadians, whether of Ukrainian origin or other, should use whatever means they have — a telephone, social media and indeed the ability to come and protest peacefully in Ottawa — but for so long as the measures are in place to protect the Parliamentary Precinct from the return of the illegal protests, all Canadian citizens have to comply with the legal requirements that are in place now. I hope they will be confirmed in this chamber, but we all hope they will not last for a second longer than necessary.

Hon. Marty Deacon: Honourable senators, before I ask my question, I want to share that earlier this morning I had a chance to have breakfast with many of our police officers to thank them. Their information and their insight — they were in this journey — has been quite enlightening for the debate we are having today.

I would like to back up, take a breath and go back to maybe seven days ago. I would like to dig a little deeper into the early stages that built us to recommending the Emergencies Act.

Government Representative, are you aware of which levels of our national security apparatus or others were consulted and listened to when the government was considering the invocation of the Emergencies Act? In other words, what sectors were at the table before it went to premiers and ministers?

Senator Gold: Honourable senator, thank you for your question. You’ll permit me to pause for a second as I consult the documents that the government has already provided.

As the government has stated on a number of occasions, honourable colleagues, the decision to invoke the act was not taken lightly. It was taken after a series of engagements, both with law enforcement, with the intelligence community with whom it is in regular contact as well as with municipal and provincial authorities. Furthermore, it was considered and debated seriously in three separate meetings of a special cabinet committee focusing exclusively on crisis issues such as we’re facing.

Because I don’t know the information that a specific agency would have shared, and it wasn’t shared with me because I don’t have the clearance to receive that kind of information, it is nonetheless the case that the government was informed by all of the law enforcement and intelligence services upon which it relies in matters like this. Combined with its own consultations with political instances, it came to the conclusion that there were reasonable grounds to believe these measures were necessary.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for that. I’m really trying to understand those early stages. I appreciate that.

As we move and progress forward, will the government be relying strictly on advice from local law enforcement when deciding to revoke the EMA or are these national security and intelligence agencies becoming increasingly involved as this crisis drags on?

Senator Gold: Again, senator, thank you for your question. I think the fairest way that I can answer it, and the most transparent way I can answer it, is that I’m assured and I can advise this chamber that the government is monitoring the situation and consulting with all of the institutions and organizations that it has been consulting with literally on an hourly basis. The objective of the government at this stage of the emergency, seven days into it, is to determine when it is safe and prudent to revoke the Emergencies Act.

The government has been advised — and some of this is on the public record — from police, the police chiefs and associations that it is not the time yet. The government has been advised that more time is needed for law enforcement to complete the work that it has done, to make sure that there is not a return whether to blockages of our borders, sieges of our cities and the like.

As the government has said on many, many occasions, as soon as the government concludes that the emergency no longer exists that requires these measures, they will be lifted.

Hon. Elizabeth Marshall: Senator Gold, thank you very much for your opening remarks.

You were saying that the government is responsible for the security of the nation, but they went from tolerating the protesters over a three-week period to invoking the act. It was a big step. They went from doing practically nothing or what seems to be doing nothing to invoking the act. We all knew the protesters were coming. Probably in mid-January we were aware they were coming to Ottawa, and there was nothing really done.

These threats that you spoke about in your opening remarks, you said they were too numerous to mention and they didn’t happen overnight. You even said yourself that they were on their way for weeks, but it seems like nothing was done.

We have received general explanations as to the thought process that went into invoking the act. But this is a serious step that we’re contemplating here today. What exactly happened that the government decided to invoke the act? Did it seem like a good idea at the time? Did something specific happen? For three or four weeks, it seemed like there was nothing happening and we were just tolerating it. In interviews, ministers were just saying, “We want the protesters to go home.” So what happened? Be specific. I know you’re giving us generalities, and I think someone said earlier, “trust us, trust us.” What happened that made the government decide to invoke the Emergencies Act?

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I won’t belabour the point to repeat some of the things I said.

We live in a federal country. The City of Ottawa is under municipal jurisdiction as far as Wellington Street is concerned. In terms of the highways, it is the jurisdiction of the Province of Ontario. And the federal government has jurisdiction. What happened was a series of events that led to a situation being out of control, a situation where local authorities — and that includes the provincial authorities — were simply incapable of responding effectively. There will be time in the processes set out in this act to look more comprehensively at what could have been done differently, how the police might have acted differently, how the province might have acted differently and how the federal government might have acted differently. But three weeks ago, the federal government and the Parliament of Canada did not have the tools to assist local police to get the job done. The Emergencies Act provided tools that no level of government would have otherwise been able to use, whether broadening the requirements of reporting to FINTRAC vis-à-vis the funding or providing other tools like directing tow truck operators to clear the streets — measures which were not invoked by any other level of government. Yet the result of this was to keep this city at siege.

As I’ve tried to explain, the federal government was in regular consultation all the way through the beginnings of this protest and tried to do its best to support and did, in fact, provide support through the RCMP and other local police. Unfortunately, it reached a situation that had become simply impossible for local authorities, using the tools that they had at their disposal or that were provided at their disposal by their provincial governments, to manage the situation. That’s why the government acted. It wasn’t doing nothing; it was providing ongoing support. It was an ongoing dialogue in all of the relevant instances. But it reached a point where it affected the government as a whole, and it is the role of the federal government to step in under those circumstances.

Senator Marshall: It wasn’t the tools that I was concerned about with regards to having the police come in and provide assistance. What I’m focused on is the intelligence. The convoy started around January 20 or January 23. Why didn’t the government know that there were threats then? If there are threats, why didn’t they know then? Why did it take until the middle of February to know that there were threats serious enough that they have to invoke the Emergencies Act? That is the question I would like to have answered.

Since it took them so long to figure it out, how much confidence can we have in regard to them invoking the act and also deciding when it should come to an end? Those are the concerns that I have. Could you address that issue with regard to the intelligence, the assessment of the threat and why the government appeared to be so late in assessing this monumental threat or numerous threats that they’re talking about?

Senator Gold: This is an important question dealing with an important democratic instrument. My understanding is that the constitution of the committee will require a motion in both houses of Parliament, as is the case for the standing up of special joint committees.

I am regularly in touch with my counterpart. Obviously, I’m not going to share those discussions, but my understanding is that my counterpart Minister Holland is in discussions with his counterparts in the House vis-à-vis the composition and process for this. It was only last night that the House voted to confirm, and I’m not yet aware that an understanding has been reached in a minority House between all the parties in the House as to how their representation would be constituted.

I have shared with this chamber the government’s position vis‑à‑vis the Senate, at least in terms of who should have at least one seat, but the discussions are ongoing. I, like you and the government, want to get this up and running as quickly as possible. It’s an important institution to ensure democratic accountability. As soon as I know more, I will report it.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. This is not just about whether existing measures could have been effectively deployed to deal with the crisis in Ottawa. Even though the City of Ottawa declared a state of emergency and the Province of Ontario then followed suit, the fact is that the police were unable to manage the situation on the ground, even with reinforcements. The measures that were taken after the state of emergency was declared — those regarding funding and the reporting of financial information, the ability to designate secure areas and to force towing companies to do the work they did not want to do, since laws don’t exist for that — were necessary because the municipal, provincial and police administrations were unable to manage the situation effectively, regardless of all the powers they theoretically have. The criteria of the act were met, and that is why the Government of Canada deemed it was appropriate to invoke the act and declare a state of emergency.

Senator Gold: There are several aspects to my response. First, as I said in my text and in responding to other questions, there were powers that neither the Government of Ontario nor the Government of Canada had to be able to remove and move the trucks involved in the blockades in order to reopen the bridge. That required support from tow truck operators from Michigan.

Just as importantly, it is true that the Government of Ontario took action on this issue. I do not want to speculate, as this was the topic of discussion for quite some time, on the possibility that the government would proclaim the Emergencies Act. I do not want to speculate on the possible repercussions for the people who were on the Ambassador Bridge. It is undeniable that the Province of Ontario did not do much to provide support to the local police forces to ensure that they could take action. Tools were deployed, we saw that here in Ottawa, that did not exist in provincial legislation nor in municipal bylaws, tools that were necessary for ending this blockade and illegal occupation here in Ottawa.

[English]

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I’ll go right to the question, not the comment about who supported it.

All I said in my speech, senator, was that people may be preoccupied and worried that future uses of the Emergencies Act may target other groups, and I mentioned Indigenous protests or environmental activists. The fact remains that if violent actions threatening the security of Canada cannot be dealt with effectively by existing laws or institutions, then and only then would at least one aspect of the underlying rationales for the Emergencies Act be invoked. If, in fact, a situation arose, regardless of who was committing the violent acts, and it met the criteria of the act — again, not simply that it was unlawful. We have laws against crime. Not simply that it was violent. We have laws against violent crimes. But that such actions that cannot be effectively addressed by the laws in the jurisdictions that apply — then and only then would a government have the right to consider whether or not the Emergencies Act would be applied and if it has reasonable grounds, as the government believes it has in this case, would an emergency be proclaimed. It would then trigger the same kind of democratic process that we’re engaged in right now.

Senator Richards: This is a supplementary question.

I’ll preface this by saying that, a few days ago, one of our reporters waded into the crowd on Wellington Street. I’m glad the crowd was taken care of by the police; I’m not saying that I want them to continue this forever. However, those at the network were appalled when he was called a “Nazi.” They said someone being called a “Nazi,” maligning a person’s character, was appalling and horrendous. And I agree that it is appalling and horrendous to call people “bigots,” “racists” and “misogynists.” It’s like calling a person a “demon” in Salem in 1640: There is no coming back from that.

I want to ask this: Are they right in saying the word “Nazi,” “misogynist” and “odious and sickening Appalachians” when dealing with such whimsy to fellow Canadians? And does the easy stigmatization of so many people show a lack of moral fibre and a moral weakness in our government?

Senator Gold: It is unacceptable to tar an individual or a person with a hurtful racial epithet. On that, we would all agree. The fact remains that evidence of hateful symbols appeared and continue to appear, not only here in Ottawa but in other respects.

It is not the position of the government that all protesters are Nazis or White supremacists; that has never been the position of the government. It is the position of the government, however, that this convoy, however well intentioned it might be and however well intentioned many of the participants might have been, was nonetheless hijacked by extremist elements. It is on the public record — White extremist groups funding it in Canada and elsewhere; the heart of organizing and mobilizing the convoys from the beginning. Those are facts we cannot escape. They are uncomfortable facts.

It is not to tar those who came with those attitudes, but it is nonetheless to affirm that once the act was proclaimed, once a state of emergency was declared and once activities were publicized as being unacceptable, each and every person, whatever their particular views, should have left and obeyed the law. It is regrettable that it took the invocation of the Emergencies Act and the strong presence of police officers from across the country to force that to happen.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: Of course.

Senator Boisvenu: Senator Gold, as you know, the Emergencies Act is the successor of the War Measures Act, which was only used three times in the history of our country. I was not yet born the first two times it was invoked, which was during the First and Second World Wars; however, on the third occasion, I experienced first-hand the October crisis of 1970. I was the president of a university student association. Senators will recall that, at the time, the Front de libération du Québec had conducted operations since the 1960s to destabilize the Quebec government. It organized riots, planted bombs in mailboxes, for example, and was involved in kidnappings, in particular that of a diplomat, James Cross, and the deputy premier of Quebec, Mr. Laporte, who was murdered.

Despite these deplorable actions, many historians believe that Pierre Elliott Trudeau was wrong to deploy the Canadian army in Quebec. Police could have easily dealt with these odious crimes. That is undoubtedly the reason why several years later Prime Minister Brian Mulroney changed the War Measures Act to make it more rigorous and to ensure it would remain useful in exceptional circumstances, given consultation with the provinces and the agreement of parliamentarians.

These two criteria have not been met under the existing legislation. The majority of the provinces did not want the act being applied in their province. In the other place, two opposition parties opposed this motion. Hence, there was not unanimous agreement. I think the situation in the country right now is vastly different than the situation in the 1970s, and the Liberal government’s abuse of power in invoking the Emergencies Act must be followed up with justification.

My questions are very simple. What current threat justifies the invocation of the Emergencies Act? Did the RCMP have information on the weapons that may have gotten into the hands of protesters? How many protesters were members of terrorist groups?

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question, senator. I was in Montreal at the time. I was 20 years old and saw the army in the streets. I was with some friends who were arrested. As you pointed out, the Emergencies Act has nothing to do with the War Measures Act. The actions taken here in Ottawa also have nothing to do with the old legislation.

I tried to explain why the government determined that there were reasonable grounds to believe that declaring a public order emergency under the act was necessary.

The only thing I want to add is that, as I’ve said many times, I’m not in a position to share information received from our law enforcement agencies or intelligence services, nor can I share any advice they may have provided to the government. However, there are so many things that are already public and that demonstrate that there were indeed people, not just those on the fringe of what happened, but behind what happened, who are prepared to use violence and prepared to encourage others to come to Ottawa to destabilize or even overthrow our democratically elected government.

We know there were people there who belong to racist groups and extremist groups, and this information is publicly available. So, once more, according to public information that everyone is aware of, the government had enough evidence to warrant using the act.

Senator Gold: Perhaps I misunderstood the question, but I’ll try to answer nonetheless. First, in a democratic country like Canada, neither the government nor Parliament directs the police. Every government must act within its own jurisdiction.

By the way, because you mentioned something earlier, I want to say that the legislation is very clear. It is not necessary for every premier or every province to agree. The text is very clear: There is a duty to consult, and if the government decides that there’s a crisis that’s not limited to one province, then it’s simply required to hold a consultation, and that is what happened. Only if an emergency that needs to be dealt with exceeds the normal, ordinary powers of the provinces and is limited to one province, and only in this circumstance, does the legislation require consent from the government concerned.

For three weeks, the government stayed within its jurisdiction and respected the jurisdiction of the police, which it does not direct. Municipal and provincial governments are separate and have their own jurisdictions. It’s wrong to say that the federal government did nothing. On the contrary, it shared information, provided its opinion, and consulted with other government bodies. I would add that, unfortunately, there were several meetings that the Premier of Ontario did not attend. It is not true that the government did nothing.

Respectfully, colleagues, the real issue is not necessarily what the government did in the beginning, during the second week or even before proclaiming the act. The government did what it could in its area of jurisdiction with the tools available to the Government of Canada, as opposed to the tools and other powers at the provincial or municipal levels.

[English]

Senator Gold: Once again, thank you for the question, senator. I’ll respond the same way I did with the first question.

It’s absolutely clear that the idea and objective, not only of this inquiry, but also of the parliamentary committee that will be established, is to ensure that we, as parliamentarians, can take part in each stage of the process to fulfill our democratic duty, which is to analyze, report and make amendments based on the circumstances outlined in the act.

Simply put, there’s no reason and nothing in the act itself that would limit the scope of this inquiry.

I would also add that, as you know, the consultation with the provinces must happen before the Emergencies Act can be invoked.

For all of these reasons, dear colleague, although I can’t give you a more specific answer about the regulations in the provinces concerned, there is no reason to think that this subject would be outside the scope of this inquiry.

I hope that answers your question.

[English]

Hon. Jim Quinn: Honourable senators, my question is for Senator Gold. I wanted to reach back to Senator Patterson’s and Senator Marshall’s questions with respect to the role of the committee and the types of information that would be made available. We know that there’s ongoing, hourly contact with various officials to see what the current situation is. So that type of risk assessment is introducing new information on an ongoing basis. Much of that information, as you’ve indicated, would probably be classified as confidential. Yet my understanding of the committee’s work would be that the Statutory Instruments Regulations will apply, which means that section 15 in that particular piece of paper will list a very confidential type of information.

My question really comes down to this. This committee is important for all parliamentarians to have confidence in the work that they’re undertaking. But wouldn’t the confidence of parliamentarians be enhanced knowing that they have access to confidential information that will better inform their work and, in turn, better inform parliamentarians?