Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I won’t belabour the point to repeat some of the things I said.

We live in a federal country. The City of Ottawa is under municipal jurisdiction as far as Wellington Street is concerned. In terms of the highways, it is the jurisdiction of the Province of Ontario. And the federal government has jurisdiction. What happened was a series of events that led to a situation being out of control, a situation where local authorities — and that includes the provincial authorities — were simply incapable of responding effectively. There will be time in the processes set out in this act to look more comprehensively at what could have been done differently, how the police might have acted differently, how the province might have acted differently and how the federal government might have acted differently. But three weeks ago, the federal government and the Parliament of Canada did not have the tools to assist local police to get the job done. The Emergencies Act provided tools that no level of government would have otherwise been able to use, whether broadening the requirements of reporting to FINTRAC vis-à-vis the funding or providing other tools like directing tow truck operators to clear the streets — measures which were not invoked by any other level of government. Yet the result of this was to keep this city at siege.

As I’ve tried to explain, the federal government was in regular consultation all the way through the beginnings of this protest and tried to do its best to support and did, in fact, provide support through the RCMP and other local police. Unfortunately, it reached a situation that had become simply impossible for local authorities, using the tools that they had at their disposal or that were provided at their disposal by their provincial governments, to manage the situation. That’s why the government acted. It wasn’t doing nothing; it was providing ongoing support. It was an ongoing dialogue in all of the relevant instances. But it reached a point where it affected the government as a whole, and it is the role of the federal government to step in under those circumstances.

Senator Marshall: It wasn’t the tools that I was concerned about with regards to having the police come in and provide assistance. What I’m focused on is the intelligence. The convoy started around January 20 or January 23. Why didn’t the government know that there were threats then? If there are threats, why didn’t they know then? Why did it take until the middle of February to know that there were threats serious enough that they have to invoke the Emergencies Act? That is the question I would like to have answered.

Since it took them so long to figure it out, how much confidence can we have in regard to them invoking the act and also deciding when it should come to an end? Those are the concerns that I have. Could you address that issue with regard to the intelligence, the assessment of the threat and why the government appeared to be so late in assessing this monumental threat or numerous threats that they’re talking about?

Senator Gold: That is an assumption. With respect to Senator Marshall, that is not correct. It is not correct to assume the government was not aware of the threats or made aware of the threats, nor is it correct to assume that the government didn’t share its concerns about the threats. It’s equally clear — as we all know and as I stated in response to an earlier question — that I cannot and the government cannot and should not share the intelligence it may have received that helped inform their decision. That goes without saying.

Again, all of the circumstances, all of the successes, failures or actions taken that led us to this unfortunate place will and must be reviewed, and they will be reviewed under the terms of the act as is appropriate in a democratic country such as Canada.

Senator Gold: This is an important question dealing with an important democratic instrument. My understanding is that the constitution of the committee will require a motion in both houses of Parliament, as is the case for the standing up of special joint committees.

I am regularly in touch with my counterpart. Obviously, I’m not going to share those discussions, but my understanding is that my counterpart Minister Holland is in discussions with his counterparts in the House vis-à-vis the composition and process for this. It was only last night that the House voted to confirm, and I’m not yet aware that an understanding has been reached in a minority House between all the parties in the House as to how their representation would be constituted.

I have shared with this chamber the government’s position vis‑à‑vis the Senate, at least in terms of who should have at least one seat, but the discussions are ongoing. I, like you and the government, want to get this up and running as quickly as possible. It’s an important institution to ensure democratic accountability. As soon as I know more, I will report it.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. This is not just about whether existing measures could have been effectively deployed to deal with the crisis in Ottawa. Even though the City of Ottawa declared a state of emergency and the Province of Ontario then followed suit, the fact is that the police were unable to manage the situation on the ground, even with reinforcements. The measures that were taken after the state of emergency was declared — those regarding funding and the reporting of financial information, the ability to designate secure areas and to force towing companies to do the work they did not want to do, since laws don’t exist for that — were necessary because the municipal, provincial and police administrations were unable to manage the situation effectively, regardless of all the powers they theoretically have. The criteria of the act were met, and that is why the Government of Canada deemed it was appropriate to invoke the act and declare a state of emergency.

Senator Gold: There are several aspects to my response. First, as I said in my text and in responding to other questions, there were powers that neither the Government of Ontario nor the Government of Canada had to be able to remove and move the trucks involved in the blockades in order to reopen the bridge. That required support from tow truck operators from Michigan.

Just as importantly, it is true that the Government of Ontario took action on this issue. I do not want to speculate, as this was the topic of discussion for quite some time, on the possibility that the government would proclaim the Emergencies Act. I do not want to speculate on the possible repercussions for the people who were on the Ambassador Bridge. It is undeniable that the Province of Ontario did not do much to provide support to the local police forces to ensure that they could take action. Tools were deployed, we saw that here in Ottawa, that did not exist in provincial legislation nor in municipal bylaws, tools that were necessary for ending this blockade and illegal occupation here in Ottawa.

[English]

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I’ll go right to the question, not the comment about who supported it.

All I said in my speech, senator, was that people may be preoccupied and worried that future uses of the Emergencies Act may target other groups, and I mentioned Indigenous protests or environmental activists. The fact remains that if violent actions threatening the security of Canada cannot be dealt with effectively by existing laws or institutions, then and only then would at least one aspect of the underlying rationales for the Emergencies Act be invoked. If, in fact, a situation arose, regardless of who was committing the violent acts, and it met the criteria of the act — again, not simply that it was unlawful. We have laws against crime. Not simply that it was violent. We have laws against violent crimes. But that such actions that cannot be effectively addressed by the laws in the jurisdictions that apply — then and only then would a government have the right to consider whether or not the Emergencies Act would be applied and if it has reasonable grounds, as the government believes it has in this case, would an emergency be proclaimed. It would then trigger the same kind of democratic process that we’re engaged in right now.

Senator Gold: It is unacceptable to tar an individual or a person with a hurtful racial epithet. On that, we would all agree. The fact remains that evidence of hateful symbols appeared and continue to appear, not only here in Ottawa but in other respects.

It is not the position of the government that all protesters are Nazis or White supremacists; that has never been the position of the government. It is the position of the government, however, that this convoy, however well intentioned it might be and however well intentioned many of the participants might have been, was nonetheless hijacked by extremist elements. It is on the public record — White extremist groups funding it in Canada and elsewhere; the heart of organizing and mobilizing the convoys from the beginning. Those are facts we cannot escape. They are uncomfortable facts.

It is not to tar those who came with those attitudes, but it is nonetheless to affirm that once the act was proclaimed, once a state of emergency was declared and once activities were publicized as being unacceptable, each and every person, whatever their particular views, should have left and obeyed the law. It is regrettable that it took the invocation of the Emergencies Act and the strong presence of police officers from across the country to force that to happen.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: Of course.

Senator Boisvenu: Senator Gold, as you know, the Emergencies Act is the successor of the War Measures Act, which was only used three times in the history of our country. I was not yet born the first two times it was invoked, which was during the First and Second World Wars; however, on the third occasion, I experienced first-hand the October crisis of 1970. I was the president of a university student association. Senators will recall that, at the time, the Front de libération du Québec had conducted operations since the 1960s to destabilize the Quebec government. It organized riots, planted bombs in mailboxes, for example, and was involved in kidnappings, in particular that of a diplomat, James Cross, and the deputy premier of Quebec, Mr. Laporte, who was murdered.

Despite these deplorable actions, many historians believe that Pierre Elliott Trudeau was wrong to deploy the Canadian army in Quebec. Police could have easily dealt with these odious crimes. That is undoubtedly the reason why several years later Prime Minister Brian Mulroney changed the War Measures Act to make it more rigorous and to ensure it would remain useful in exceptional circumstances, given consultation with the provinces and the agreement of parliamentarians.

These two criteria have not been met under the existing legislation. The majority of the provinces did not want the act being applied in their province. In the other place, two opposition parties opposed this motion. Hence, there was not unanimous agreement. I think the situation in the country right now is vastly different than the situation in the 1970s, and the Liberal government’s abuse of power in invoking the Emergencies Act must be followed up with justification.

My questions are very simple. What current threat justifies the invocation of the Emergencies Act? Did the RCMP have information on the weapons that may have gotten into the hands of protesters? How many protesters were members of terrorist groups?

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question, senator. I was in Montreal at the time. I was 20 years old and saw the army in the streets. I was with some friends who were arrested. As you pointed out, the Emergencies Act has nothing to do with the War Measures Act. The actions taken here in Ottawa also have nothing to do with the old legislation.

I tried to explain why the government determined that there were reasonable grounds to believe that declaring a public order emergency under the act was necessary.

The only thing I want to add is that, as I’ve said many times, I’m not in a position to share information received from our law enforcement agencies or intelligence services, nor can I share any advice they may have provided to the government. However, there are so many things that are already public and that demonstrate that there were indeed people, not just those on the fringe of what happened, but behind what happened, who are prepared to use violence and prepared to encourage others to come to Ottawa to destabilize or even overthrow our democratically elected government.

We know there were people there who belong to racist groups and extremist groups, and this information is publicly available. So, once more, according to public information that everyone is aware of, the government had enough evidence to warrant using the act.

Senator Gold: Perhaps I misunderstood the question, but I’ll try to answer nonetheless. First, in a democratic country like Canada, neither the government nor Parliament directs the police. Every government must act within its own jurisdiction.

By the way, because you mentioned something earlier, I want to say that the legislation is very clear. It is not necessary for every premier or every province to agree. The text is very clear: There is a duty to consult, and if the government decides that there’s a crisis that’s not limited to one province, then it’s simply required to hold a consultation, and that is what happened. Only if an emergency that needs to be dealt with exceeds the normal, ordinary powers of the provinces and is limited to one province, and only in this circumstance, does the legislation require consent from the government concerned.

For three weeks, the government stayed within its jurisdiction and respected the jurisdiction of the police, which it does not direct. Municipal and provincial governments are separate and have their own jurisdictions. It’s wrong to say that the federal government did nothing. On the contrary, it shared information, provided its opinion, and consulted with other government bodies. I would add that, unfortunately, there were several meetings that the Premier of Ontario did not attend. It is not true that the government did nothing.

Respectfully, colleagues, the real issue is not necessarily what the government did in the beginning, during the second week or even before proclaiming the act. The government did what it could in its area of jurisdiction with the tools available to the Government of Canada, as opposed to the tools and other powers at the provincial or municipal levels.

[English]

Senator Gold: Once again, thank you for the question, senator. I’ll respond the same way I did with the first question.

It’s absolutely clear that the idea and objective, not only of this inquiry, but also of the parliamentary committee that will be established, is to ensure that we, as parliamentarians, can take part in each stage of the process to fulfill our democratic duty, which is to analyze, report and make amendments based on the circumstances outlined in the act.

Simply put, there’s no reason and nothing in the act itself that would limit the scope of this inquiry.

I would also add that, as you know, the consultation with the provinces must happen before the Emergencies Act can be invoked.

For all of these reasons, dear colleague, although I can’t give you a more specific answer about the regulations in the provinces concerned, there is no reason to think that this subject would be outside the scope of this inquiry.

I hope that answers your question.

[English]

Hon. Jim Quinn: Honourable senators, my question is for Senator Gold. I wanted to reach back to Senator Patterson’s and Senator Marshall’s questions with respect to the role of the committee and the types of information that would be made available. We know that there’s ongoing, hourly contact with various officials to see what the current situation is. So that type of risk assessment is introducing new information on an ongoing basis. Much of that information, as you’ve indicated, would probably be classified as confidential. Yet my understanding of the committee’s work would be that the Statutory Instruments Regulations will apply, which means that section 15 in that particular piece of paper will list a very confidential type of information.

My question really comes down to this. This committee is important for all parliamentarians to have confidence in the work that they’re undertaking. But wouldn’t the confidence of parliamentarians be enhanced knowing that they have access to confidential information that will better inform their work and, in turn, better inform parliamentarians?

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question, senator. The Government of Canada knows how critical the agricultural sector is to the economic and social well-being of Canada. Indeed, as I think the government has expressed on other occasions and in connection with this, there is no question the measures that are being taken under the Emergencies Act, notably the securing of our borders and trade routes, have enormous significance and benefit to the agricultural sectors, whether it is livestock out West or a huge panoply of products that go across at Windsor and elsewhere in the country.

As to your question, it is true that agricultural facilities are not defined as critical infrastructure, and the regulations do not authorize that to be added to it sort of pro forma. You are also right, however, to point out that there is a mechanism where, were there sufficient senators so inclined to refer that question to the committee to which I referred, it is possible to amend the regulations.

The other point I might add is that provisions of the regulations may, in fact, potentially apply were it to be the case that an unlawful protest and activity have the effect of shutting down a facility or impeding access to a facility, because the prohibitions against such acts are not limited to those that affect critical infrastructure. That’s under section 2(1).

So it is possible that activities outside of a facility could be covered, and it would open to the Senate to amend the regulations to so designate a facility or facilities as critical infrastructure.

Finally, it is still the case that there is the ability under the current regulations to designate additional protected places.

There are tools in the act that could be used, potentially, without change or, if amended, to address the situation you have raised. Thank you for the question.

Senator Gold: I would be happy to communicate that. Thank you.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I have nothing new to report. The ongoing conversations between government, law enforcement and the like continue. There remains an ongoing concern that we are not out of the woods yet, that there are stated plans still afoot to reoccupy and continue the illegal activities. Whether they will be realized or not, let’s hope not.

At such time as the government reaches the conclusion that the emergency is past, of course, we will be the first to know or amongst the first to know. That’s all I really am able to say at this juncture.

Senator Coyle: Senator Gold, thank you very much for your clear speech kicking off this serious and historic debate. And thank you to my colleagues from all sides in this chamber for your important questions.

I was disappointed we were prevented from having a well‑moderated Committee of the Whole with the ministers associated with the Emergencies Act as part of today’s sitting. I found the briefing last evening and questions asked by my colleagues to be very helpful as we individually and collectively work to understand the situation leading to the Emergencies Act being proclaimed and the implications of that.

The following is the question I had wanted to ask the ministers last night: You have said the government was reluctant to invoke the Emergencies Act, and it plans to end it as soon as possible. You mentioned the government is in regular, sometimes hourly, communication with law enforcement and other sources of intelligence about the situation of continued risks and threats.

Now, I would like to look at a future scenario. Let’s say, based on satisfying the reasonable grounds that have been discussed, the Emergencies Act is revoked sometime between now and the 30-day mark. We know there is a highly sophisticated, well‑connected, well-resourced organization endowed with highly effective communications capabilities behind the recent occupations and blockades. That is not in question. But it worries me. What if they were to regroup quickly after the revocation of the act and act again in illegal ways to cause further serious harms of a similar or worse nature and/or magnitude to the ones caused recently? Are there new non-Emergencies Act measures and tools being developed now, or is there a plan to quickly develop those by the government and its counterparts to fill the gaps that caused us to have to use the Emergencies Act now for this first time, or would we be in a position of having to proclaim the Emergencies Act as the only response again? Thank you.

Senator Gold: Thank you. That is an important question. You are not the only one preoccupied with the possibility that the calm that we now see may be the calm before other events, whether here in this city, as some have expressed an intention to return, or at our border crossings, as some have expressed as well.

There is evidence that, in fact, the provinces and police forces across the country have learned some lessons from what was allowed to happen here in Ottawa. That’s why there is concern about protests in other cities. Winnipeg has been occupied to some considerable degree. It has been off the national radar, but has been going on for some time. That is why, for example, the initial truck convoys to Quebec City were managed better than the convoys when they arrived here. So there are lessons that have been learned and will be properly studied and evaluated in the context of the inquiry that is contemplated at the end.

As I mentioned in my speech, the federal government is already considering and planning to introduce legislation to expand the scope of FINTRAC so that it covers the fundraising platforms. The world has changed so dramatically, and social media has had a dramatic impact — not only on how it shapes people’s attitudes and inclines and mobilizes them, but in terms of how money gets moved around. Add to that crypto-currency, which we have seen very much at play here. One of the lessons the government has learned is that we need something more durable and enduring that doesn’t require the invocation of these measures.

The details escape me, but I know that there are measures being considered by the Province of Ontario to specify greater powers or the use of existing powers in a more targeted way so that were the situation to arise, they would be able to do their part to resist the return of blockades and the like.

At the end of the day, one hopes that the lessons learned — ordinary measures that all legislatures and Parliament should be thinking about — will be sufficient. But if not, then the act remains there in those extraordinary, last-resort circumstances.

The other point I should have made earlier, and excuse me for the order of my answer, is even when the Emergencies Act is revoked — and we all hope it is sooner rather than later — the investigations and the prosecutions that are underway will continue. Just because the act ceases to be in force — at some time soon, one hopes — doesn’t mean that the illegal acts that were taken, while they were illegal, are forgiven.

One also hopes that the measures taken — and sometimes it is under the Criminal Code — the Emergencies Act supplements the existing jurisdictional framework.

The charges that have been laid, the measures taken to deal with the freezing of bank accounts and so on, one hopes will also provide some disincentive for those inclined to want to continue the project of occupying, blockading and destabilizing our country.

[Translation]