Senator Gold: There are several aspects to my response. First, as I said in my text and in responding to other questions, there were powers that neither the Government of Ontario nor the Government of Canada had to be able to remove and move the trucks involved in the blockades in order to reopen the bridge. That required support from tow truck operators from Michigan.

Just as importantly, it is true that the Government of Ontario took action on this issue. I do not want to speculate, as this was the topic of discussion for quite some time, on the possibility that the government would proclaim the Emergencies Act. I do not want to speculate on the possible repercussions for the people who were on the Ambassador Bridge. It is undeniable that the Province of Ontario did not do much to provide support to the local police forces to ensure that they could take action. Tools were deployed, we saw that here in Ottawa, that did not exist in provincial legislation nor in municipal bylaws, tools that were necessary for ending this blockade and illegal occupation here in Ottawa.

[English]

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I’ll go right to the question, not the comment about who supported it.

All I said in my speech, senator, was that people may be preoccupied and worried that future uses of the Emergencies Act may target other groups, and I mentioned Indigenous protests or environmental activists. The fact remains that if violent actions threatening the security of Canada cannot be dealt with effectively by existing laws or institutions, then and only then would at least one aspect of the underlying rationales for the Emergencies Act be invoked. If, in fact, a situation arose, regardless of who was committing the violent acts, and it met the criteria of the act — again, not simply that it was unlawful. We have laws against crime. Not simply that it was violent. We have laws against violent crimes. But that such actions that cannot be effectively addressed by the laws in the jurisdictions that apply — then and only then would a government have the right to consider whether or not the Emergencies Act would be applied and if it has reasonable grounds, as the government believes it has in this case, would an emergency be proclaimed. It would then trigger the same kind of democratic process that we’re engaged in right now.

Senator Richards: This is a supplementary question.

I’ll preface this by saying that, a few days ago, one of our reporters waded into the crowd on Wellington Street. I’m glad the crowd was taken care of by the police; I’m not saying that I want them to continue this forever. However, those at the network were appalled when he was called a “Nazi.” They said someone being called a “Nazi,” maligning a person’s character, was appalling and horrendous. And I agree that it is appalling and horrendous to call people “bigots,” “racists” and “misogynists.” It’s like calling a person a “demon” in Salem in 1640: There is no coming back from that.

I want to ask this: Are they right in saying the word “Nazi,” “misogynist” and “odious and sickening Appalachians” when dealing with such whimsy to fellow Canadians? And does the easy stigmatization of so many people show a lack of moral fibre and a moral weakness in our government?

Senator Gold: It is unacceptable to tar an individual or a person with a hurtful racial epithet. On that, we would all agree. The fact remains that evidence of hateful symbols appeared and continue to appear, not only here in Ottawa but in other respects.

It is not the position of the government that all protesters are Nazis or White supremacists; that has never been the position of the government. It is the position of the government, however, that this convoy, however well intentioned it might be and however well intentioned many of the participants might have been, was nonetheless hijacked by extremist elements. It is on the public record — White extremist groups funding it in Canada and elsewhere; the heart of organizing and mobilizing the convoys from the beginning. Those are facts we cannot escape. They are uncomfortable facts.

It is not to tar those who came with those attitudes, but it is nonetheless to affirm that once the act was proclaimed, once a state of emergency was declared and once activities were publicized as being unacceptable, each and every person, whatever their particular views, should have left and obeyed the law. It is regrettable that it took the invocation of the Emergencies Act and the strong presence of police officers from across the country to force that to happen.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: Of course.

Senator Boisvenu: Senator Gold, as you know, the Emergencies Act is the successor of the War Measures Act, which was only used three times in the history of our country. I was not yet born the first two times it was invoked, which was during the First and Second World Wars; however, on the third occasion, I experienced first-hand the October crisis of 1970. I was the president of a university student association. Senators will recall that, at the time, the Front de libération du Québec had conducted operations since the 1960s to destabilize the Quebec government. It organized riots, planted bombs in mailboxes, for example, and was involved in kidnappings, in particular that of a diplomat, James Cross, and the deputy premier of Quebec, Mr. Laporte, who was murdered.

Despite these deplorable actions, many historians believe that Pierre Elliott Trudeau was wrong to deploy the Canadian army in Quebec. Police could have easily dealt with these odious crimes. That is undoubtedly the reason why several years later Prime Minister Brian Mulroney changed the War Measures Act to make it more rigorous and to ensure it would remain useful in exceptional circumstances, given consultation with the provinces and the agreement of parliamentarians.

These two criteria have not been met under the existing legislation. The majority of the provinces did not want the act being applied in their province. In the other place, two opposition parties opposed this motion. Hence, there was not unanimous agreement. I think the situation in the country right now is vastly different than the situation in the 1970s, and the Liberal government’s abuse of power in invoking the Emergencies Act must be followed up with justification.

My questions are very simple. What current threat justifies the invocation of the Emergencies Act? Did the RCMP have information on the weapons that may have gotten into the hands of protesters? How many protesters were members of terrorist groups?

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question, senator. I was in Montreal at the time. I was 20 years old and saw the army in the streets. I was with some friends who were arrested. As you pointed out, the Emergencies Act has nothing to do with the War Measures Act. The actions taken here in Ottawa also have nothing to do with the old legislation.

I tried to explain why the government determined that there were reasonable grounds to believe that declaring a public order emergency under the act was necessary.

The only thing I want to add is that, as I’ve said many times, I’m not in a position to share information received from our law enforcement agencies or intelligence services, nor can I share any advice they may have provided to the government. However, there are so many things that are already public and that demonstrate that there were indeed people, not just those on the fringe of what happened, but behind what happened, who are prepared to use violence and prepared to encourage others to come to Ottawa to destabilize or even overthrow our democratically elected government.

We know there were people there who belong to racist groups and extremist groups, and this information is publicly available. So, once more, according to public information that everyone is aware of, the government had enough evidence to warrant using the act.

Senator Gold: Once again, thank you for the question, senator. I’ll respond the same way I did with the first question.

It’s absolutely clear that the idea and objective, not only of this inquiry, but also of the parliamentary committee that will be established, is to ensure that we, as parliamentarians, can take part in each stage of the process to fulfill our democratic duty, which is to analyze, report and make amendments based on the circumstances outlined in the act.

Simply put, there’s no reason and nothing in the act itself that would limit the scope of this inquiry.

I would also add that, as you know, the consultation with the provinces must happen before the Emergencies Act can be invoked.

For all of these reasons, dear colleague, although I can’t give you a more specific answer about the regulations in the provinces concerned, there is no reason to think that this subject would be outside the scope of this inquiry.

I hope that answers your question.

[English]

Hon. Jim Quinn: Honourable senators, my question is for Senator Gold. I wanted to reach back to Senator Patterson’s and Senator Marshall’s questions with respect to the role of the committee and the types of information that would be made available. We know that there’s ongoing, hourly contact with various officials to see what the current situation is. So that type of risk assessment is introducing new information on an ongoing basis. Much of that information, as you’ve indicated, would probably be classified as confidential. Yet my understanding of the committee’s work would be that the Statutory Instruments Regulations will apply, which means that section 15 in that particular piece of paper will list a very confidential type of information.

My question really comes down to this. This committee is important for all parliamentarians to have confidence in the work that they’re undertaking. But wouldn’t the confidence of parliamentarians be enhanced knowing that they have access to confidential information that will better inform their work and, in turn, better inform parliamentarians?

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question, senator. The Government of Canada knows how critical the agricultural sector is to the economic and social well-being of Canada. Indeed, as I think the government has expressed on other occasions and in connection with this, there is no question the measures that are being taken under the Emergencies Act, notably the securing of our borders and trade routes, have enormous significance and benefit to the agricultural sectors, whether it is livestock out West or a huge panoply of products that go across at Windsor and elsewhere in the country.

As to your question, it is true that agricultural facilities are not defined as critical infrastructure, and the regulations do not authorize that to be added to it sort of pro forma. You are also right, however, to point out that there is a mechanism where, were there sufficient senators so inclined to refer that question to the committee to which I referred, it is possible to amend the regulations.

The other point I might add is that provisions of the regulations may, in fact, potentially apply were it to be the case that an unlawful protest and activity have the effect of shutting down a facility or impeding access to a facility, because the prohibitions against such acts are not limited to those that affect critical infrastructure. That’s under section 2(1).

So it is possible that activities outside of a facility could be covered, and it would open to the Senate to amend the regulations to so designate a facility or facilities as critical infrastructure.

Finally, it is still the case that there is the ability under the current regulations to designate additional protected places.

There are tools in the act that could be used, potentially, without change or, if amended, to address the situation you have raised. Thank you for the question.

Senator Gold: I would be happy to communicate that. Thank you.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. I have nothing new to report. The ongoing conversations between government, law enforcement and the like continue. There remains an ongoing concern that we are not out of the woods yet, that there are stated plans still afoot to reoccupy and continue the illegal activities. Whether they will be realized or not, let’s hope not.

At such time as the government reaches the conclusion that the emergency is past, of course, we will be the first to know or amongst the first to know. That’s all I really am able to say at this juncture.

Senator Coyle: Senator Gold, thank you very much for your clear speech kicking off this serious and historic debate. And thank you to my colleagues from all sides in this chamber for your important questions.

I was disappointed we were prevented from having a well‑moderated Committee of the Whole with the ministers associated with the Emergencies Act as part of today’s sitting. I found the briefing last evening and questions asked by my colleagues to be very helpful as we individually and collectively work to understand the situation leading to the Emergencies Act being proclaimed and the implications of that.

The following is the question I had wanted to ask the ministers last night: You have said the government was reluctant to invoke the Emergencies Act, and it plans to end it as soon as possible. You mentioned the government is in regular, sometimes hourly, communication with law enforcement and other sources of intelligence about the situation of continued risks and threats.

Now, I would like to look at a future scenario. Let’s say, based on satisfying the reasonable grounds that have been discussed, the Emergencies Act is revoked sometime between now and the 30-day mark. We know there is a highly sophisticated, well‑connected, well-resourced organization endowed with highly effective communications capabilities behind the recent occupations and blockades. That is not in question. But it worries me. What if they were to regroup quickly after the revocation of the act and act again in illegal ways to cause further serious harms of a similar or worse nature and/or magnitude to the ones caused recently? Are there new non-Emergencies Act measures and tools being developed now, or is there a plan to quickly develop those by the government and its counterparts to fill the gaps that caused us to have to use the Emergencies Act now for this first time, or would we be in a position of having to proclaim the Emergencies Act as the only response again? Thank you.

Senator Gold: Thank you. That is an important question. You are not the only one preoccupied with the possibility that the calm that we now see may be the calm before other events, whether here in this city, as some have expressed an intention to return, or at our border crossings, as some have expressed as well.

There is evidence that, in fact, the provinces and police forces across the country have learned some lessons from what was allowed to happen here in Ottawa. That’s why there is concern about protests in other cities. Winnipeg has been occupied to some considerable degree. It has been off the national radar, but has been going on for some time. That is why, for example, the initial truck convoys to Quebec City were managed better than the convoys when they arrived here. So there are lessons that have been learned and will be properly studied and evaluated in the context of the inquiry that is contemplated at the end.

As I mentioned in my speech, the federal government is already considering and planning to introduce legislation to expand the scope of FINTRAC so that it covers the fundraising platforms. The world has changed so dramatically, and social media has had a dramatic impact — not only on how it shapes people’s attitudes and inclines and mobilizes them, but in terms of how money gets moved around. Add to that crypto-currency, which we have seen very much at play here. One of the lessons the government has learned is that we need something more durable and enduring that doesn’t require the invocation of these measures.

The details escape me, but I know that there are measures being considered by the Province of Ontario to specify greater powers or the use of existing powers in a more targeted way so that were the situation to arise, they would be able to do their part to resist the return of blockades and the like.

At the end of the day, one hopes that the lessons learned — ordinary measures that all legislatures and Parliament should be thinking about — will be sufficient. But if not, then the act remains there in those extraordinary, last-resort circumstances.

The other point I should have made earlier, and excuse me for the order of my answer, is even when the Emergencies Act is revoked — and we all hope it is sooner rather than later — the investigations and the prosecutions that are underway will continue. Just because the act ceases to be in force — at some time soon, one hopes — doesn’t mean that the illegal acts that were taken, while they were illegal, are forgiven.

One also hopes that the measures taken — and sometimes it is under the Criminal Code — the Emergencies Act supplements the existing jurisdictional framework.

The charges that have been laid, the measures taken to deal with the freezing of bank accounts and so on, one hopes will also provide some disincentive for those inclined to want to continue the project of occupying, blockading and destabilizing our country.

[Translation]

Hon. Renée Dupuis: Will Senator Gold take a another question?

Senator Gold: Yes.

Senator Dupuis: Senator Gold, section 19 of the Emergencies Act gives the government considerable discretionary power, the power to make such orders or regulations as it “. . . believes, on reasonable grounds, are necessary . . . .” The orders or regulations can be used to prohibit any public assembly, and so on. A little further on in subsection 19(3) and paragraph 19(3)(b), it reads, and I quote:

The power under subsection (1) to make orders and regulations, and any powers, duties or functions conferred or imposed by or pursuant to any such order or regulation, shall be exercised or performed . . .

Can you confirm that the review by a parliamentary committee provided for under section 62 — a joint committee of the House of Commons and the Senate — would deal with section 19 and paragraph 19(3)(b)?

In other words, can you confirm that a discretionary power will be exercised and that the measures will have to be taken with the view of achieving, to the extent possible, concerted action with each province concerned? Can you confirm that this particular aspect of the act will be part of the parliamentary review committee’s mandate?

Senator Gold: Thank you for this important question, senator.

As you know from reading the Emergencies Act, the legislation provides very little detail in terms of the committee’s mandate or agenda, apart from what is written.

As is done with all Senate committees, I think this will be sorted out as we go along, as long as it is framed by the relevant sections in the act, and it is the committee itself that will determine the topics.

I don’t see anything in the statutory language that would prohibit or rule out a review of that aspect of the act.

I can’t give a clearer answer than that, because there is no specific provision that would prohibit it, apart from what is already written in the act. In my view, if there is no statutory language specifying that it’s outside the scope of this committee, I think the committee will be able to decide exactly what issues and topics will be reviewed.

Senator Dupuis: Senator Gold, to follow up on my first question on section 19, which states that the orders and regulations and powers, duties or functions must be exercised or performed with the view of achieving, to the extent possible, concerted action with each province, can you confirm that with respect to the inquiry — I am no longer referring to the parliamentary review committee — that must be held within 60 days after the expiration or revocation of the declaration of emergency, the Governor-in-Council is required to cause an inquiry to be held, not only into the circumstances, but also into “. . . the measures taken for dealing with the emergency.”

Can you confirm that in this part of subsection 63(1), “. . . the measures taken for dealing with the emergency” refer to a Governor-in-Council decision, which means it is the government that must request the inquiry, not only into the circumstances, but also into the measures taken? Would this also cover the concerted action to the extent possible with the provinces?