The Hon. the Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say “yea.”

Senator Downe: Yes, obviously, we have the same reading list because I read that report as well. In regard to those reports — colleagues should understand this — the government made a commitment in the last election on the tax gap, and the Canada Revenue Agency, or CRA, is, in my opinion, very slowly doing piecemeal work; that was on the underground economy. They have done a couple of others. What we need is an overall tax gap analysis.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer has requested data from the CRA — not individual names of any Canadians, but just the raw data — and he can estimate an independent tax gap analysis. The CRA has refused to provide that information, and we know, for a host of reasons, that the information provided by the CRA on a number of things has been wrong.

My question is as follows: Is the Finance Committee questioning the CRA as to why they are not cooperating with the Parliamentary Budget Officer — who has asked for that information so that he can tell all Canadians what the real tax gap is?

Hon. Frances Lankin: Will the senator take a question?

Hon. Percy E. Downe: Thank you colleagues, and thank you Senator Marshall for your presentation.

I’m wondering if you could advise us if there is an update regarding the Canada Revenue Agency’s continuous refusal to estimate the tax gap — the difference between what we should be collecting and what we are collecting; that is one measurement.

The second measurement tells you how efficient your national tax agency is. As you know, six years ago, the Conference Board of Canada, in a public document, indicated that the tax gap shortfall could be up to $47 billion. We all realize that it’s impossible for the agency to collect all of that, but if they collected half of that, it would solve a lot of problems in this country.

Do you have any update on how that’s going?

Senator Marshall: Yes.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you, senator.

The Government of Canada is deeply concerned about the legislation approved by the Ugandan parliament last week.

As you know, both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs strongly and immediately condemned this bill on March 22. The bill seeks to broadly violate the human rights and fundamental freedoms of Uganda’s LGBTQ2+ community. That is unacceptable.

The government stands with the LGBTQ+ community in Uganda and around the world and is calling on the government of Uganda to repeal that law. I would like to add that Canada unequivocally opposes the use of the death penalty in all cases, everywhere. This form of punishment is inconsistent with human rights and human dignity.

[English]

Some Hon. Senators: Yes.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Do we have agreement on the bell?

Hon. Percy E. Downe introduced Bill S-258, An Act to amend the Canada Revenue Agency Act (reporting on unpaid income tax).

(Bill read first time.)

Senator Gold: I believe this is a responsible budget. I believe that this budget invests in our future as we transition to clean energy, as the world transitions to clean energy, as our major economic partner transitions to a cleaner, more sustainable environment. It provides investments to our companies, whether in the oil patch, in Hibernia and across the country to take advantage of Canadians’ expertise to profit and benefit from the changes that are upon us and that no government that is responsible or prudent would dare ignore.

It also invests in Canadians, who continue to have the challenge of living through uncertain economic times. That’s why the targeted, focused help that this budget provides to Canadians will assist them as they move forward.

Again, this government’s record over the last three or four challenging years demonstrates that it is possible to invest in Canadians, support our economy, do the right thing and still maintain a high credit rating and the strongest growth in the G7.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I wish to draw your attention to the presence in the gallery of Margareta Cederfelt, President of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe — Parliamentary Assembly.

On behalf of all honourable senators, I welcome you to the Senate of Canada.

Senator Lankin: You led into my supplementary question. I particularly appreciate the fact-based approach that you bring to your analysis and the professional skill base. There is not a lot of that to be shared in the chamber.

I have asked you this directly, but now I’m putting it on the record: Do you think we could set up a training or briefing program for other senators and their staff who would like to understand the download analysis that you do and how you approach it, just to give us a better idea and help us to be more confident?

If you were to decide to go back to Newfoundland and not return here, it would be a great loss to this chamber in terms of the kind of work you do on all of our behalf.

Hon. Dennis Glen Patterson: Thank you very much, Senator Marshall.

I was interested in the alarming figures you gave about the sharp increase in per capita spending — the highest in history in recent years — and the steep increase in public debt. I think you said there was a 34% increase in the past two years. You said the trend seems to be going up.

We’re often told by the government representatives in the Senate — I remember hearing this from Senator Harder and probably from Senator Gold — to not worry and that the debt-to-GDP ratio is stellar among the G7. They tell us the debt-to-GDP ratio is okay. Would you have any comments on that formula — the debt-to-GDP ratio? Is it also worrisome?

Senator Marshall: No, the Finance Committee has not taken initiative on that, but, now that you have mentioned it, I can certainly refer that to the committee.

Everything I have read about the tax gap, and the collection of outstanding taxes, suggests that the focus of the Canada Revenue Agency — and this is also from the minister down — is that they are studying the issue. It sounds like they are studying it — probably internally — but there is no action being taken, or there is the appearance of no action being taken.

The Hon. the Speaker: All those opposed will please say “nay.”

The Hon. the Speaker: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Gagné, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gold, that the bill be read a third time.

Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. This government is very well aware of the rising and sustained high cost of groceries, and that is why it has targeted relief to more than 10 million to 11 million households that need it the most.

It is simply not correct, although perhaps ideologically comforting, to wrap every increase in prices to the price on pollution. We know that supply chains are disrupted by the pandemic. We know that supply chains are disrupted because of the war in Ukraine. We know this is a worldwide phenomenon. We know that grocery chains are being seriously questioned by members in the other place as to what role they may be playing in terms of food prices.

The government’s position is that the price on carbon is an important policy tool to benefit Canadians, not only now but later for our children and our grandchildren.

[Translation]

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read the second time?

(On motion of Senator Loffreda, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for second reading two days hence.)

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I wish to draw your attention to the presence in the gallery of Yuvraj Singh and Sabbena Singh Bhatti. They are the guests of the Honourable Senator Pate.

On behalf of all honourable senators, I welcome you to the Senate of Canada.